Urgent notice from RAIB today

[96701]

iands in Post No 20 wrote

 

Agree, it's not more paperwork we need, just competent staff. 

 

No amount of forms or procedures will prevent such appalling oversights.

[Alien]

Remember being on a ballast turn one Saturday night where it all went tits up after a cable was accidently cut [ again ]. Whilst waiting to get started again I got chatting to some of the guys with shovels doing the actual graft. They were working a 12hour shift tonight and had been working 12 hour shifts all week.............................re-surfacing the M62!!!!!!

[mogman1969]

 

Back in the BRassic period ..... Wonderfull description !

Edited March 20, 2018 by mogman1969

[uax6]

I'm lucky in as much as I get issued with a Rule book, but its not a complete rule book, as stuff that used to be in it, have been removed from the main issue and put in Handbooks. All very well, but us signallers now don't have vision of the whole picture any more..

 

Its noticeable that the moral of all frontline staff on NR has dropped of the edge of a cliff in the last 5 years, something which management seem to be blissfully unaware of.

 

Low moral causes accidents, and sadly accidents on the railway causes death. I firmly believe that there is a big one waiting just around the corner...

 

Going back to the original post, when you realise how many possessions are taken even night, let alone every year, you realise how rare these sorts of incidents are, but sadly any one of them is one more than we should be allowing, but then its statistics and money that are the only things that really matter on the modern railway. Experience just isn't wanted, and wants to leave as quickly as possible.... 

 

Andy G

[Joseph_Pestell]

There was quite a bit of fraud a few years ago with PTS cards, COSS cards, PICOW cards, etc., being "handed out in pubs" etc., on a Saturday ready for a weekend shift (and I no doubt at other times during the week as well), but this was stamped out a few years ago with the introduction of the Sentinel cards. Not saying there might not be still a bit of fraudulent behaviour going on now with the competency cards, but it is significantly more difficult now and I certainly wouldn't say the use of fraudulent cards is widespread in the railway industry.

 

Yes there may still be a lot of useless prats out there with questionable (railway) knowledge and skills, but they only have to demonstrate once every 1 or 2 years (depending on the specific competency) to an assessor/instructor they understand the requirements of what is required.

 

Regards, Ian.

 

I think that Ian is probably right that it is less common than it was a while back. But it is still happening and it only takes one duffer to cause an incident such as this.

[jim.snowdon]

I'm lucky in as much as I get issued with a Rule book, but its not a complete rule book, as stuff that used to be in it, have been removed from the main issue and put in Handbooks. All very well, but us signallers now don't have vision of the whole picture any more..

 

Its noticeable that the moral of all frontline staff on NR has dropped of the edge of a cliff in the last 5 years, something which management seem to be blissfully unaware of.

 

Low moral causes accidents, and sadly accidents on the railway causes death. I firmly believe that there is a big one waiting just around the corner...

 

Going back to the original post, when you realise how many possessions are taken even night, let alone every year, you realise how rare these sorts of incidents are, but sadly any one of them is one more than we should be allowing, but then its statistics and money that are the only things that really matter on the modern railway. Experience just isn't wanted, and wants to leave as quickly as possible.... 

 

Andy G

On top of which, the situation is not helped, in my view, by the ever greater numbers of contract staff on the railway, especially outside of the core maintenance functions, whose general understanding of the railway outside of the immediate job they are doing is lacking and whose loyalty to the railway is essentially nil. The job is just that, a job to be done when instructed, nothing more.

 

Jim

[PenrithBeacon]

The RAIB makes it clear that these issues are on site managerial ones. It also seems to make clear that NR isn't too good at managing its business, so no surprises there then.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, these things are so bad as to beggar belief, but lest we get lost in a mist of past golden ages, dreadful oversights occasionally happened in 'the good old days' too.

 

I know of a case in the 1970s, where two wagons were left on a tight bend, in the middle of a non-TC section, after a train had been split into parts for loading during a possession. The possession had been given up, but fortunately, someone spotted that they were missing when the train got back to the yard, and alerted the signalman just before the first train. I don't believe it was ever reported.

 

And, an awful tragedy at Hilsea c1982, resulting from a bnggers muddle about status of lines during a possession.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Oldddudders]

Yes, these things are so bad as to beggar belief, but lest we get lost in a mist of past golden ages, dreadful oversights occasionally happened in 'the good old days' too.

Not to mention horrid stupidities, like the night an engineer’s crane hook went through a passing ECS EMU cab window at Streatham Hill, killing the guard who was sadly riding with the driver.

[Rugd1022]

Sadly these things do still happen, although not as much as they once did. I remember several years ago the late Ray 'Reverend' Worthy working the down mail one night hitting a P/Way trolley at 75mph near Warrington. Heads rolled thereafter, and rightly so.

 

My own little 'do' was a bit of a strange one which still boggles the mind when I look back on it - a few years ago I was working a very late running freight from Cricklewood back to Bardon Hill, it was so late that by the time I'd reached Kettering the booked possession at Market Harborough had already been taken. This being a year or so before I signed via Corby I told the signalman that I'd either need a conductor to go via Corby or something else would need to be sorted. After about half an hour of phone calls it was decided that the possession at MH would be lifted allowing me to proceed through and crack on to Bardon Hill. It was agreed that I would work bang road to the junction just south of MH and be put out onto the Down Fast there and be on my merry way to BH in no time at all, I was assured that all the boards had all been lifted and that all personal were standing clear and knew what was happening. So off I set from Kettering North Junction at line speed, on arrival at MH I 'm given a green with the number one route indicator off to regain the Down Fast, the approach to which is on a blind right hand bend, as I come round the corner accelerating to 40mph through the crossover I see and completely obliterate the possession limit board and run over three detonators which had been mistakenly placed on the crossover itself! Hitting the emergency brake plunger my ticker was going like the clappers and I've never seen so many hi-viz jackets come of the woodwork once I'd come to a stand. I was told a couple of weeks later that 'a communication error had occured' between the PICOP and the signalman!

[Nearholmer]

These things can be b frightening from the ground, too.

 

About 35 years ago, I had a gang pulling very heavy cable through an under-track crossing and along the cess, working under possession, and a confusion between the PICOP and signaller resulted in a light loco being 'let through the block' (whether the block was actually lifted, I can't recall) at full line speed, with no warning. We were actually clear of the line by a whisker anyway at that juncture, and heard it coming, so got clearer still, but moments before we'd had kit all over the track, as we shifted it from one side to the other.

[Trog]

Strange things sometimes happened I was working one weekend on one of the branch lines in North London, with a ganger from one of the local mainline gangs who was supposed to be acting as supervisor and PICOP for the job. I don't think the ganger had ever worked on that branch before as I had to explain to him where the lines went and where the protection was supposed to be placed. The signalman also may have been somewhat inexperienced as a request to reverse a crossover, was met with a blank look and had to be explained. Still we successfully did the job which I think was cess clearance and I happily wandered off home. The following morning I was asked to report to the Area Civil Engineer, who wanted to know why I had gone home without giving up the possession, fortunately my excuse that I was not the PICOP was accepted.

 

It later turned out that the signalman presumably seeing me advising the ganger in detail, and that the ganger was following my instructions. Had read more into it and had put my name down as the PICOP on the paperwork which the ganger had not objected to, and for the duration of the job all was well. As on small jobs like that with a ganger acting up to cover a supervisors role the technical staff being more experienced would generally run the job with the acting supervisor just doing the possession paperwork and handing trains to and from the signalman. As there was no visible difference in the interface between site and the rest of the railway, between me being PICOP and having the acting supervisor act for me, and me as tech staff requesting the supervisor as PICOP to do things for me. The difference only became a problem when having finished the work and cleared the line, I went home leaving the acting supervisor to give up the no longer required possession, and he thinking that I was now the PICOP did the same.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm lucky in as much as I get issued with a Rule book, but its not a complete rule book, as stuff that used to be in it, have been removed from the main issue and put in Handbooks. All very well, but us signallers now don't have vision of the whole picture any more..

 

Its noticeable that the moral of all frontline staff on NR has dropped of the edge of a cliff in the last 5 years, something which management seem to be blissfully unaware of.

 

Low moral causes accidents, and sadly accidents on the railway causes death. I firmly believe that there is a big one waiting just around the corner...

 

Going back to the original post, when you realise how many possessions are taken even night, let alone every year, you realise how rare these sorts of incidents are, but sadly any one of them is one more than we should be allowing, but then its statistics and money that are the only things that really matter on the modern railway. Experience just isn't wanted, and wants to leave as quickly as possible.... 

 

Andy G

 

Your first sentence very clearly identifies a major problem (well what this dinosaur considers a major problem) and also explains, I think, why some people revert to the online version.  My December amendments to the Rule Book arrived yesterday  (they do take somewhat longer to reach outside parties and in any case mine do not come direct to me anyway so rely on my oppo being able to forward them as soon as practicable although he's normally very good).  Anyway back to the point because this lot includes the revised Module T3, the more or less equivalent of the old TIII I mentioned in my earlier post, BUT this module only applies to Signallers and Drivers hence if I were a Signaller I wouldn't (officially) have a clue what the engineers are supposed to do because I have not been made aware of it - knowledge removed, transparency removed, cross-check removed.

 

The cumbersome and overblown nature of the current Rule Book inevitably led to complaints about using it so somebody invented the 'Handbook' system to get round part of that plus modules are stupidly separated where a subject is common.  It is this disconnection from the practical side of the railway which is one area where the system falls down.  The other problem is the sheer difficulty of the practical side of the railway making an input to the system under which Rules and Regulations are now produced.  i know of senior operations staff who have come across errors in reissues or have asked for things to be amended to make sense to those at teh sharp end and getting that through the system is nigh impossible.  

 

Having the Rule Book in the hands of a separate organisation, particularly one overseen by a 'board' on which no member has any recent practical operational experience or direct safety responsibility, is a nonsense when the infrastructure owner is no longer a separate commercial company as it was in the days of Railtrack.  In BR days communication of Rule comments and alterations from, say, a Signalman to the people who controlled the content of the Rule Book etc was not only wholly within one organisation (which probably helped) but was a relatively short chain of communication and wholly through people who had experience of working (or trying to work) to the requirements of the Rule Book or who thoroughly understood the subject and were involved, or had been involved, in drafting what it said while others with long experience had approved the contents.  Nowadays I get the impression that RSSB is a separate 'industry' with its own agenda while within the industry a Signaller is very often 'managed' by someone who has less operational experience than they have and who reports to someone else with probably even less experience.  

 

When I was a Regional 'Rules man' people came to me for interpretations and information or for alterations and if I could they would get the answer although sometimes I might need to speak to my Regional Signalling Officer and/or those in similar roles at the BRB or on the other Regions.  Amendments took a bit longer of course but interpretation was either instant or within a day or two.  BTW the best question I was ever asked on interpretation was a call from a Signalman who wanted to know if a wallaby counted as a large animal or a small animal in terms of applying the Rules in respect of an animal on the line; obviously I had to ask him if it was a small or large wallaby

[uax6]

Very well put Mike, and I think it sums it up nicely. BTW I did mention to my LOM when the Handbooks were handed out why I wasn't given any, and therefore won't know what everyone else would be doing, only to be told that I didn't need to know.

 

 

Andy g

[roythebus]

Talking of Things On The Line, one day working the Waterloo & City, normal weekday service, around midday, arrived at Waterloo only to see what appeared to be a huge pipe snaking down from the overbridge, onto the track fouling my way into the sidings. I stopped short of the obstruction, passengers went, guard came along and we watched this "snake get longer then stop. I wandered over to the box and told the bobby who also came out and wondered what it was. 

 

The job had to stop, and about 10 minutes later a load of men with BICC overalls on came along the platform. It turned out they'd been pulling cable TV cables through a conduit on the bridge and they'd lost the cable, which had found a hole in the conduit and gone downwards onto the track! The job had to stop with power off while they retrieved their cable. I never heard a word about it.

[Foulounoux]

Interesting discussion on how people seem to be blinded by procedures etc

 

I have just launched across EMEA a Playbook for my function

What has been amazing is the number of highly intelligent, skilled and experienced people who have then rung me to ask what should I do in case of xyz or abc

 

I refer them to page 1 of my publication

 

 

"Please note in all cases Common Sense should be the overriding guide as to what is correct"

 

 

 

Colin

[4069]

Very well put Mike, and I think it sums it up nicely. BTW I did mention to my LOM when the Handbooks were handed out why I wasn't given any, and therefore won't know what everyone else would be doing, only to be told that I didn't need to know.

 

 

Andy g

In fairness to your LOM, I can't see any text in eg Handbook 8 (IWA, COSS or PC blocking a line) that isn't also in module TS1 (General Signalling Regulations). I do agree that it would be better if you were issued with the Handbook so that you can see what clauses the person on the other end of the phone is talking about.

[meil]

What has gone wrong with the education system that it seems to turn them out in ever increasing quantities?

 

Here is every issue of the old Meccano Magazine (PDF downloads): https://www.meccanoindex.co.uk/MMpdfs1.php

That stuff was written for (and devoured by) 12-year-olds.

 

Nowadays it would have to be drastically dumbed-down even for adults. And the BBC explains the news in the style of a Ladybird book.

 

Martin.

Not just here. I was in conversation with an American who had apparently just retired as an English teacher. I mentioned that I had just seen a production Of mice and men. Blank look - John Steinbeck? Nope - Grapes of wrath? Oh yes she had heard of that couldn't remember the author! This is an American teacher of English who doesn't recognise an American Nobel laureate for literature! Edited March 21, 2018 by meil

[jamie92208]

I never knew the Meccano Magazine was freely available. Thanks for the link Martin.

 

Just read the copy from the month I was born - another world, another world.

 

I'm just trying to get rid of a pile from the 50's and 60's but no one seems interested in Ebay.  

 

Jamie

[martin_wynne]

Yet another incident:

 

"The track workers, who believed that they were working on the up slow line, heard shouted warnings from other workers, heard the sound of the train’s warning horn and saw the headlights of the approaching train. They immediately began to get out of the way and removed two trolleys that they had placed on the track. The track workers and trolleys were clear of the approaching train around two seconds before it passed."

 

From RAIB today: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/near-miss-with-track-workers-at-primrose-hill

 

Martin.

[jamie92208]

I think that the report could be an interesting read in due course but the main thing is that no one was injured which is a blessing for all involved.   Many years ago I was a policeman in the section that covered Methley when 4 trackworkers were killed.  Several of my colleagues attended at it wasn't nice.  

 

Jamie

[Supaned]

To be honest it's not just rule books that are the issue. Recently Bristol TM has been resignalled , and there seemed to be several versions of operating instructions circulating , depending upon which TOC you work for. Frankly not good enough in this day & age that it wasn't resolved and issued BEFORE any operating staff were briefed (incorrectly in certain cases) on the new arrangements.

 

I'd also agree that sadly these days there is a lot of "dumbing down" of the job , allied to laziness, low morale and more folks within the industry who are solely there for the money. 

[Oldddudders]

 

I'd also agree that sadly these days there is a lot of "dumbing down" of the job , allied to laziness, low morale and more folks within the industry who are solely there for the money. 

 

The industry was not always a happy place in my time, but competence was assumed, and not so often found wanting. Ironic that in an era when Government funding has never been more bounteous, the implausible complexity of a zillion commercial relationships and casual labour means the money doesn't go far enough and safety is so impaired. A chilling environment in which to work, I imagine. 

[Trog]

Yet another incident:

 

"The track workers, who believed that they were working on the up slow line, heard shouted warnings from other workers, heard the sound of the train’s warning horn and saw the headlights of the approaching train. They immediately began to get out of the way and removed two trolleys that they had placed on the track. The track workers and trolleys were clear of the approaching train around two seconds before it passed."

 

From RAIB today: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/near-miss-with-track-workers-at-primrose-hill

 

Martin.

 

Almost beyond belief that they confused the fast and slow lines.

 

But I think that one of the reasons that sort of thing happens more these days is because of the fragmented nature of the modern railway with contract staff working here there and everywhere.

Back in the good old days of BR (Before Railtrack) any P-Way staff working there would have been local, and almost everyone would have known which line was which. So if a Supervisor for example made a mistake, the gang would have questioned why do you want a trolley on the UF when we are working on the slows?

 

One of the other advantages of the old way of doing things was that the staff were all known to each other, and we knew who needed watching, checking up on or could be trusted, and for what jobs.

[Titan]

I presume this area has axle counters. In the good old days of track circuits it is highly likely the signals would have turned to red the moment the trolleys were put on the line, and the signaller would certainly then have noticed the irregularity straight away. Not the first time that lack of track circuits has led to a near miss in recent history...

Edited April 12, 2018 by Titan