Motorail trains in the seventies

[On the block Allan]

Hello all

 

A couple of questions for anyone in the know, What was the max speed of Motorail trains conveying car flats in the seventies? also, was the passenger accommodation First class, First and Second class or just Second class? I think I recall seeing photographs of the formation including sleeper carriages.

 

Allan.

[Fat Controller]

Hello all

 

A couple of questions for anyone in the know, What was the max speed of Motorail trains conveying car flats in the seventies? also, was the passenger accommodation First class, First and Second class or just Second class? I think I recall seeing photographs of the formation including sleeper carriages.

 

Allan.

I'm pretty certain that the Carflats were restricted to 75 mph. Accomodation on day-time serves was normally in Corridor 1st, with the occupants of one car per compartment. There were overnight services from southern England to Stirling and elsewhere which included sleepers.

[wagonman]

Hello all

 

A couple of questions for anyone in the know, What was the max speed of Motorail trains conveying car flats in the seventies? also, was the passenger accommodation First class, First and Second class or just Second class? I think I recall seeing photographs of the formation including sleeper carriages.

 

Allan.

 

 

I remember taking a car/sleeper train from Paddington to Exeter back in the '70s. I think it doubled up as a mail/parcels train as it went all round the houses and had some lengthy station stops. I awoke to find the sleeper had bee shunted into a dock siding and my car was parked outside. The sleeper was 2nd clss as the cabin had two bunks – though no other occupants. Indeed I may have had the entire carriage to myself. 

 

Max speed definitely didn't come into the equation though...

 

 

Richard

[jetmorgan]

If you have it there is a short documentry film called Motorsport tries Motorail on the BFI British Transport films collection vol 7. Granted it's all done for the benefit of the cameras so the train formations may not be what regularly happened but there is some interesting images on there.

[The Stationmaster]

I remember taking a car/sleeper train from Paddington to Exeter back in the '70s. I think it doubled up as a mail/parcels train as it went all round the houses and had some lengthy station stops. I awoke to find the sleeper had bee shunted into a dock siding and my car was parked outside. The sleeper was 2nd clss as the cabin had two bunks – though no other occupants. Indeed I may have had the entire carriage to myself. 

 

Max speed definitely didn't come into the equation though...

 

 

Richard

 

1C14, 23.45Paddn - Penzance conveyed a GUV (Cars) front then an SLC immediately behind it for Exeter and ran the long way round via Bristol, and even Weston-Super-Mare.  So limited to 75mph conveying a sleeping car but the GUV was most likely a 90mph vehicle.

[acg5324]

Day trains the accommodation was usually Mk1 FKs with a brake vehicle for the guard, often a BSO. Later some Mk2 FK sets were made up often with a Mk2 BFK. I have quite a lot of Motorail images on my website http://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/f56164866

 

When Motorail trains conveyed a catering vehicle most photos show an RB or RMB. the Nightcap bar has also been used.

Overnight trains were usually Second class sleepers and first class seated coaches.

Mk1 Carflats had a 90mph limit, same as the GUVs. Later GUVs fitted with Commonwealth or B5 bogies has a 100mph limit.

 

 

There is also a useful Flickr site for Motorail https://www.flickr.com/groups/2259775@N23/pool/

Edited March 29, 2018 by acg5324

[37114]

Day trains the accommodation was usually Mk1 FKs with a brake vehicle for the guard, often a BSO. Later some Mk2 FK sets were made up often with a Mk2 BFK. I have quite a lot of Motorail images on my website http://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/f56164866

 

When Motorail trains conveyed a catering vehicle most photos show an RB or RMB. the Nightcap bar has also been used.

Overnight trains were usually Second class sleepers and first class seated coaches.

 

 

There is also a useful Flickr site for Motorail https://www.flickr.com/groups/2259775@N23/pool/

Thanks for sharing this links, some great photos there.

[eastwestdivide]

The carflats look like they were in fact capable of higher speeds than 75.

Here's a Motorail FVV carflat at Wolverton in 1985, branded 90mph on the end, with B1-type (?) bogies:

 

I also remember seeing the daytime ones with all 1st class coaches, from maybe 1978 onwards. Might be able to find a few notes on actual formations if I look hard enough - would that help?

Edited March 29, 2018 by eastwestdivide

[Phil Bullock]

These existing threads contain a lot of relevant gen...

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/119848-carflats/page-1

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/111578-oxford-announce-carflat-additional-liveries-and-sound-options/page-2?hl=motorail

 

Might be useful if not already seen!

 

Phil

[keefer]

The different vehicles' branded speed was their max speed, so 90mph was technically possible.

But as The Stationmaster mentioned above, any trains with sleepers weren't run at the maximum, presumably for reasons of passenger comfort.

i.e. a daytime service may have been timed for (and maybe would have to run at) 90mph, but a sleeper service on the same route would only be timed for 75mph

[On the block Allan]

Thanks folk for your info. If you have the time eastwestdivide, #8, your notes will be interesting thanks.

[acg5324]

Motorail trains were in general VERY long, with trailing loads varying with the peak seasons. The shortest train that I know of was the Brockenhurst / Dover to Stirling two near identical portions attached at Kensington Olympia and of course split there southbound.

https://flic.kr/p/eqaZfs

This photo from John Dedman on the Flickr site shows BSO FK SLS SLS then 6 Carflats. The train would be double that length from Olympia. I have working timetables for many years on the West London Line and I think the maximum load for this train was 23 vehicles.

Passengers had there own compartment for each car so a FK would be worth 7 cars, roughly one and a half carflat loads.

 

For my Olympia layout I’m going to try and keep the trains to 4 passenger cars and 6 Carflats. I currently have 25 Mk1 Carflats, about 6 GUVs and 4 Newton Chambers car carriers.

[eastwestdivide]

Observations of Motorail services.

28/7/1980, on a Crewe overnighter:

(1)

unknown loco with Mk1s (first class or composite* day coaches/2nd class sleepers**) 14026 13234 2519** 2504** 2528** 13296 21236* and FVV (v) or FVX (x) Motorail flats 745911v 745620v 745085x*** 745001x 745006x 745622v 745614v 745643x 745012x 745641v 745077x 745021v

***noted as having B4 bogies.

 

(2) 

85004 with Mk1s 14016 13232 2545** 2503** and FVVs 748719 745076 745017 745069 745030 745621 745037 745626

 

11/6/83, Exeter.

50042 up at 1658 with Motorail FVVs noted as all with B1 bogies  745016 745620 745051 745627 745062 745017 745032 745073 745621 745031

but no passenger coaches: did the passengers travel on normal service trains? Was it just an empty stock? Don't know.

 

Later edit: see photo in another post below - it was loaded.

Edited March 30, 2018 by eastwestdivide

[37114]

Observations of Motorail services.

28/7/1980, on a Crewe overnighter:

(1)

unknown loco with Mk1s (first class or composite* day coaches/2nd class sleepers**) 14026 13234 2519** 2504** 2528** 13296 21236* and FVV (v) or FVX (x) Motorail flats 745911v 745620v 745085x*** 745001x 745006x 745622v 745614v 745643x 745012x 745641v 745077x 745021v

***noted as having B4 bogies.

 

(2)

85004 with Mk1s 14016 13232 2545** 2503** and FVVs 748719 745076 745017 745069 745030 745621 745037 745626

 

11/6/83, Exeter.

50042 up at 1658 with Motorail FVVs noted as all with B1 bogies 745016 745620 745051 745627 745062 745017 745032 745073 745621 745031

but no passenger coaches: did the passengers travel on normal service trains? Was it just an empty stock? Don't know.

Re the Exeter train, in later days passengers travelled down on a normal service train so your observation is correct. Rail Express did an article on Motorail trains many years ago including sample formations and called this out.

[SED Freightman]

Reference to the SED Station Summaries - Locomotive Operated Trains, dated 02/051977 to 07/05/1978, gives the formation for the Dover portion of the Stirling Motorail services as :-

1 BFK

1 FK

2 SLSTP

6 Carflats

 

Services are shewn as :-

2020 (FO) Stirling to Dover Marine arr 0606 (SO) - running until 07/10/1977

2125 (SO) Dover Marine to Stirling - running until 08/10/1977

2020 (SO) Stirling to Dover Marine arr 0635 (SUN) - running until 08/10/1977

2125 (SUN) Dover Marine to Stirling - running until 02/10/1977

Presumably the stock arriving on 09/10/1977 returned North as ECS.

Edited March 30, 2018 by SED Freightman

[duncan]

75mph would be a nasty shock to many '70s cars 

 

(sorry, couldn't resist that !)

[LMS2968]

Not really. The Ford 100E topped at out just over 70mph in 1953. Most 'sixties cars would exceed 70, and 'seventies cars comfortably so. That was the effect of the motorway network, as well as normal progression.

[eastwestdivide]

Just realised I also photographed the Exeter working I mentioned above at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/132763-motorail-trains-in-the-seventies/?p=3108280

 

You can see a few cars at the front, a gap, and a load more towards the rear - was it loaded at two places and combined? Newton Abbott and St Austell maybe??

(badly exposed original, so I've brought up the shadows in this version)

[hmrspaul]

Motorail trains were in general VERY long, with trailing loads varying with the peak seasons. The shortest train that I know of was the Brockenhurst / Dover to Stirling two near identical portions attached at Kensington Olympia and of course split there southbound.

https://flic.kr/p/eqaZfs

This photo from John Dedman on the Flickr site shows BSO FK SLS SLS then 6 Carflats. The train would be double that length from Olympia. I have working timetables for many years on the West London Line and I think the maximum load for this train was 23 vehicles.

Passengers had there own compartment for each car so a FK would be worth 7 cars, roughly one and a half carflat loads.

 

For my Olympia layout I’m going to try and keep the trains to 4 passenger cars and 6 Carflats. I currently have 25 Mk1 Carflats, about 6 GUVs and 4 Newton Chambers car carriers.

 

Kids stuff, Going OT the Bologna to Calais train loaded to 17 passenger carriages and 27 car carriers the night we used it! Double headed right across the Alps. Loaded to the gunwhales with the British middle classes by far the longest passenger carrying train I ever witnessed - and must have made an absolute fortune. We arrived a couple of hours late, to go to breakfast whilst the cars were unloaded to learn that Princess Diana had died whilst we were circling Paris.

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

Kids stuff, Going OT the Bologna to Calais train loaded to 17 passenger carriages and 27 car carriers the night we used it! Double headed right across the Alps. Loaded to the gunwhales with the British middle classes by far the longest passenger carrying train I ever witnessed - and must have made an absolute fortune. We arrived a couple of hours late, to go to breakfast whilst the cars were unloaded to learn that Princess Diana had died whilst we were circling Paris.

 

Paul

They were probably double-deck car-carriers as well, weren't they, Paul? SNCF had relatively few bogie double-deck car carriers, so during peak season, they used to use wagons from STVA, their specialist 'trade' car-delivery subsidiary. When I started at Eurotunnel, SNCF used to have half-a-dozen or more TAC (Train-Auto-Couchette) starting from Calais every night during the summer, with a large proportion of the clientele crossing with us; I used to remember the detailed route to the TAC terminal by heart, as I gave it out so many times. Within a couple of years, SNCF had reduced services to a couple of pairs of trains, before giving up entirely. For a while, SNCB continued to run a few trains, but these eventually ceased as well. The reasons were many; apart from the growth of motorways, cars were getting longer and taller, the latter meaning that fewer vehicles could use double-deck wagons. We looked at using the service, but discovered even our Picasso was too tall.

[hmrspaul]

They were probably double-deck car-carriers as well, weren't they, Paul? SNCF had relatively few bogie double-deck car carriers, so during peak season, they used to use wagons from STVA, their specialist 'trade' car-delivery subsidiary. When I started at Eurotunnel, SNCF used to have half-a-dozen or more TAC (Train-Auto-Couchette) starting from Calais every night during the summer, with a large proportion of the clientele crossing with us; I used to remember the detailed route to the TAC terminal by heart, as I gave it out so many times. Within a couple of years, SNCF had reduced services to a couple of pairs of trains, before giving up entirely. For a while, SNCB continued to run a few trains, but these eventually ceased as well. The reasons were many; apart from the growth of motorways, cars were getting longer and taller, the latter meaning that fewer vehicles could use double-deck wagons. We looked at using the service, but discovered even our Picasso was too tall.

This is the service we arrived on, on that trip. At Milan http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/italianrailway/ea46484ab There are a few other photos taken in the yard that morning. I haven't scanned what I took on the way back - I don't think I took any of the train. Quite honestly it was fairly chaotic it was so full. Of course everyone had reservations but they insisted on splitting our au pair from our family of four as she made up the numbers in another couchette and we could have a pair in with us.

 

The Biarritz car loading ramp from another Cartrain holiday http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/carramp/e1c9d0a08

 

Which brings us back to UK car carrying - lots of ramps here although mainly for commercial deliveries http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/carramp

 

Paul

[wagonman]

Nowt to do with BR but we did take the DB Rostock to Dortmund service a few years back: a daytime service with double deck car carriers and Inter-Regio coaches. Detrained at Dortmund around midnight after a fairly leisurely journey.

[Wickham Green]

The different vehicles' branded speed was their max speed, so 90mph was technically possible.

But as The Stationmaster mentioned above, any trains with sleepers weren't run at the maximum, presumably for reasons of passenger comfort.

i.e. a daytime service may have been timed for (and maybe would have to run at) 90mph, but a sleeper service on the same route would only be timed for 75mph

The other reason for a sleeper not to run at ( technical ) maximum speed is to avoid arriving in the middle of the night and having to occupy a platform for hours or shunt the carflats off while the passengers are still akip !

[The Stationmaster]

The other reason for a sleeper not to run at ( technical ) maximum speed is to avoid arriving in the middle of the night and having to occupy a platform for hours or shunt the carflats off while the passengers are still akip !

 

Plenty of train conveying sleeping cars were involved in shunting in the middle of the night if they were also conveying vans (back to the point about being detached and shunted at Exeter mentioned in post No.3).