DCC Concepts sniffer scrambling NCE Power Pro

[Harry]

I’mhoping someone can help identify what I’ve done wrong with the initial setup of a new system using the DCC Concpets equipment.

 

I have started wiring the accessory decoder (ads8fx) and wanted a separate accessory bus so have used the new DCC Concepts sniffer. This is connected to a separate power supply and directly to one of the outputs on a DCC Concepts alpha panel.

 

I have attached a clear visual plan of exactly the components used and what they’re linked to. The system isn’t complete yet obviously but I thought with the attached setup I’d already be able to control the points with the NCE handset (it’s a power pro 5 amp).

 

The problem is - when the system is turned on, it works and doesn’t short and when the cabs are plugged in to either the NCE panel or alpha panel they work UNTIL the bus wire from the panel is connected to the sniffer.

 

As soon as this happens, both the cabs screens scramble and turn into random symbols etc (the first message is normally ‘for a normal display press xpn’ but no buttons work at all. It doesn’t short though.

 

Missing out the panel and connecting bus straight to the sniffer from the NCE panel doesn’t prevent this either. Disconnecting the ads-9fx doesn’t stop it either. It seems I’ve done something wrong with the actual sniffer. The only thing that does work is if I miss the sniffer out completely and power the ads-8fx with the track bus but this defeats the object really as the layout will grow and I wanted the separate busses.

 

If someone can look at the diagram and work out what I’ve done wrong, I will be forever grateful!

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Untitled Page.pdf

[Nigelcliffe]

As I find DCC Concepts manuals (and lack of manuals in this product's case) very confusing, its hard to help.   
I could guess what's wrong, but without a manual to check against, its a guess.  

 

Suggest you contact DCC Concepts, they do usually respond to emails, or, subject to opening hours over a bank holiday, they have a telephone number and address in Yorkshire. 

 

 

 

For what you've proposed, separating the track and accessories, the usual solution is to put a circuit breaker (or several circuit breakers) on the output of the PowerPro's track bus.  The layout track is taken after the circuit breaker, and the accessory bus is taken off before the circuit breaker (or via a second breaker for the accessories only).   Thus, with a short, the circuit breaker trips first, leaving the accessory bus operating normally.   Thus, the DCC Concepts "sniffer" is not needed, and is creating unnecessary complexity.      I'd be fitting a circuit breaker to the track as a matter of course, to protect the PowerPro system from shorts.   

Then, having done the normal separation of track and accessories, and wish to use the DCC Concepts "panel" products for producing a switch board, then I would connect those to the NCE Cab Bus, as they are just "Cabs" (Like NCE throttles, but with buttons which send accessory commands only).    

 

 

- Nigel

[Harry]

Thanks Nigel - that’s useful. I know the lack of manuals makes it hard to decide which product is suitable so I did send a diagram of my layout to DCC Concepts to check and they Ok’d this usage but I’ll ask them again what the issue may be.

 

For information, I’ve attached photos of the manual that came with the sniffer as I don’t think they’re online anywhere.

 

I have a real lack of knowledge about the circuit breaker approach (as this does sound an easy solution). Could you post a link to a suitable circuit breaker to use in this instance?

 

I also thought this approach would reduce the available power to the track and accessory bus which is why I was going for the separately powered accessory bus but am I wrong with that thinking?

 

Thanks again,

[John ks]

I had a search through DCC concepts web site & like Nigel couldn't find a manual

 

The only place I found a picture of the sniffer it was connecter to the 12 way digital switch

 

This leads me to wonder if the sniffer will do what you want., not what you wanted to hear & as always I could be completely wrong.

 

Otherwise I agree with Nigel

 

John

[Nigelcliffe]

Harry,

thanks for posting what you have, but its not a "manual" (for which I blame DCC Concepts).  

 

However, within what you've posted, note that it only shows the DCC Concepts box with connection to other systems via a "sniffer input" (on second page).   Such an input only exists on some systems, such as ESU, RocoZ21, and some others.     You've connected the cab-bus of your entire system (with a command station on the end) to it, that's not shown in the document. 

 

 

Circuit breakers:
Things like the NCE EB1   https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/nce/eb-1-electronic-breaker

Or numerous others produced by, Tam Valley or DCC Specialties, or several other makers.  

That would be my way of doing things. 

 

Yes, that does mean you are dividing your power between accessories and track, but unless you have a huge number of accessory devices its not significant.   If it does become significant, then insert a power booster into that leg of the system to increase the power available to that part of your system.

 

 

- Nigel

[John ks]

Looking at the manual you just posted there is nowhere that shows a connection like yours

 

To me it seams that you use the 12 way digital switch to send a signal to the sniffer & the sniffer converts it to DCC & feeds a DCC accessory bus

 

Or the output goes to the sniffer ports of the DCC booster Command Station & then to the DCC track bus from The DCC system (lower Pic) This way you can integrate the 12way digital switch into an existing DCC system that has a sniffer port

 

Another possibility if you want separate Busses is to get a second booster NCE DB5 might be suitable

 

John

Edited March 31, 2018 by John ks

[Harry]

Hi all - thanks so much for the replies and I think you’re right about it not doing what I thought.

 

I’ve read back through emails I had from DCC concepts and I think I misunderstood them - the ast One said:

 

‘Adding the SNX is the cheapest way to get an accessory bus if you do not already have a DCC system or you have limited power on your DCC system and want to use a sniffer to create a separate DCC bus to control things like accessories.

 

You can connect the SNX to the NCE Command/Cab bus via RJ12 however you will need an separate adaptor like the UTP to daisy chain the AEU into that RJ12 command/cab network as well.

 

Remember that the AEU with Alpha Switch D is like a throttle but for DCC accessories only. The SNX in this case is a 1A booster and its output must not be connected electrically to the main track bus.”

 

So I think when I put my alpha encoder and switch-d’s in you could connect it to that (although the AEU only has one rj-12 socket so don’t really understand how it can take signal from the NCE system and send it on to the sniffer.

 

So in conclusion , if you wanted two completely separate buses you could have a setup like Mike in this post and use the sniffer for that (post 15) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/121974-control-panels-dcc-concepts-alpha-versus-lots-of-wires-which-way-to-go/

 

But where I still want to be able to control the chess pries with the handset, alpha switch-d’s and the laptop then I should just split the bus using a breaker and add a booster if ever needed.

 

Many thanks all! You should all work on commission for DCC Concepts!

 

Anyone want to buy a sniffer......

[Nigelcliffe]

Hi all - thanks so much for the replies and I think you’re right about it not doing what I thought.

 

Not surprised, because I find DCC Concepts terminology and documents to be confusing and quite hard to follow.   I understand networking protocols, and am pretty good at deciphering documentation.  

 

 

I’ve read back through emails I had from DCC concepts and I think I misunderstood them - the ast One said:

 

‘Adding the SNX is the cheapest way to get an accessory bus if you do not already have a DCC system or you have limited power on your DCC system and want to use a sniffer to create a separate DCC bus to control things like accessories.

 

You can connect the SNX to the NCE Command/Cab bus via RJ12 however you will need an separate adaptor like the UTP to daisy chain the AEU into that RJ12 command/cab network as well.

 

Remember that the AEU with Alpha Switch D is like a throttle but for DCC accessories only. The SNX in this case is a 1A booster and its output must not be connected electrically to the main track bus.”

The middle line of DCC Concepts reply has me puzzled, because that's what I think your setup does, yet its crashing. So, either you've got a mis-wired cable, or there is something ambiguous in the replies.

 

 

 

So I think when I put my alpha encoder and switch-d’s in you could connect it to that (although the AEU only has one rj-12 socket so don’t really understand how it can take signal from the NCE system and send it on to the sniffer.

 

You need something which forms a branch in the NCE Cab Bus - the little Alpha panel you have does that, or the NCE "UTP" offers a four-way connection doing much the same (you show one in your PowerPro setup).

 

https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200526389-UTP-Universal-Throttle-Panel

 

Within reason, one can branch the NCE Cab Bus as much or as little as you like. 

 

 

So in conclusion , if you wanted two completely separate buses you could have a setup like Mike in this post and use the sniffer for that (post 15) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/121974-control-panels-dcc-concepts-alpha-versus-lots-of-wires-which-way-to-go/

 

But where I still want to be able to control the chess pries with the handset, alpha switch-d’s and the laptop then I should just split the bus using a breaker and add a booster if ever needed.

 

 

That's how I'd do it.

 

And, if using the Alpha Input devices, then the first one has a NCE Cab Bus connection and is allocated a Cab Bus number (so it doesn't conflict with any other Cab numbers assigned to throttle handsets). Subsequent Alpha input devices are daisy chained from that primary one, using the "in" and "out" connectors, so use the primary device's cab number.

If daisy chaining doesn't work (eg. two control panels in different places), then the second panel has another primary device, with another Cab Bus number, ensuring it is unique from the other cab devices (throttles, etc) on the NCE Cab Bus.

 

 

Many thanks all! You should all work on commission for DCC Concepts!

 

Anyone want to buy a sniffer......

 

Depending on where you've been buying your kit, they might take it back. If you're a regular customer, buying a fair bit of stuff, its not a huge burden for them to be helpful. Depends on the retailer and your relationship with them.

 

 

 

- Nigel

[WIMorrison]

If you want 2 busses then do what I do - I run the output from my Z21 into a NCE 225 EB-1 which then goes to the track. I then run a separate bus from the imput of the EB-1 into the accessory bus.

 

This means that when I have the points set incorrectly and a loco overrun the point the track circuit is cut off by the EB-1 but I can still change the point which removes the short and means I can start running again

 

Best if all? It is only about £25!!

[Vistisen]

I think you might have made the same mistake as I did. A DCCConcepts sniffer can apparently NOT be used with NCE.systems ( at least not the power cab I have) You must either use DCC Concepts's cobalt alpha / digital switch, or own a DCC system that has a sniffer port for example ESU products.

 

I was planning, like you to use the DCCconcteps sniffer to power an accesory bus. You can't, and they have warned med not to try using it with solenoids as the power surge can be too much for sniffer to cope with. They have also advised against using the sniffer with their own surface mount point motors!

 

All in all it is not really worth using as far as I can see.

[Harry]

Thanks again everyone - excellent advice throughout. I have purchased a PSX1 which I liked the simplicity of.

 

I shop at the physical Gaugemaster shop near Arundel and buy a fair amount from there so hopefully they’ll take the sniffer back!

 

Thanks again,

[cravensdmufan]

 

Not surprised, because I find DCC Concepts terminology and documents to be confusing and quite hard to follow.   I understand networking protocols, and am pretty good at deciphering documentation.  

 

Absolutely agree with that.

 

I even find that some their adverts in railway modelling magazines don't always make it clear what the products actually do!

[newbryford]

Hi all - thanks so much for the replies and I think you’re right about it not doing what I thought.

 

I’ve read back through emails I had from DCC concepts and I think I misunderstood them - the ast One said:

 

‘Adding the SNX is the cheapest way to get an accessory bus if you do not already have a DCC system or you have limited power on your DCC system and want to use a sniffer to create a separate DCC bus to control things like accessories.

 

You can connect the SNX to the NCE Command/Cab bus via RJ12 however you will need an separate adaptor like the UTP to daisy chain the AEU into that RJ12 command/cab network as well.

 

Remember that the AEU with Alpha Switch D is like a throttle but for DCC accessories only. The SNX in this case is a 1A booster and its output must not be connected electrically to the main track bus.”

 

So I think when I put my alpha encoder and switch-d’s in you could connect it to that (although the AEU only has one rj-12 socket so don’t really understand how it can take signal from the NCE system and send it on to the sniffer.

 

So in conclusion , if you wanted two completely separate buses you could have a setup like Mike in this post and use the sniffer for that (post 15) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/121974-control-panels-dcc-concepts-alpha-versus-lots-of-wires-which-way-to-go/

 

But where I still want to be able to control the chess pries with the handset, alpha switch-d’s and the laptop then I should just split the bus using a breaker and add a booster if ever needed.

 

Many thanks all! You should all work on commission for DCC Concepts!

 

Anyone want to buy a sniffer......

 

As I'm the builder of the panel mentioned above....

 

The DCC Concepts sniffer was originally conceived as a means of getting Alpha Switch D/Alpha Encoder accessory signals into "larger" DCC systems that have a DCC sniffer input - such as the Roco Z21 Black and ESU ECoS, so that you didn't have to scroll through different screens on the controllers.

(IIRC, the sniffer input on the controllers above is so that you can use any compliant DCC system and feed into them, thus effectively using the Z21 or ECoS as a booster/repeater panel)

 

It was then realised that the sniffer unit DCD-SNX could be used to drive a stand alone accessory bus using low power devices such as the Cobalt Digital IP.

 

My panel, with Switch-D, AEU encoder and SNX sniffer actually drives three ESU switchpilots - with separate power feeds - to Tortoise motors, with another 4 Digital IPs that were added later as the layout build progressed.

 

I think then that the SNX sniffer was a little over-promoted as a separate system.

That's when it came to light that devices with capacitors - such as the ADS solenoid decoders would overload the output stage of a SNX as the trip circuits responded to a current surge on start up. The current output of the SNX is certainly capable of running about 4 ADS-8SX units, but it can't "start" them.

It also transpires that the Cobalt-SS stepper motor controllers have about 5 capacitors and after adding a couple of them to a SNX, it starts to resist powering up.

 

Alpha Switch D/encoder can connect directly into the NCE command bus (as you can also do with an Alpha Central), but in short, the SNX was never designed to be connected/controlled from a NCE system and I agree that You can connect the SNX to the NCE Command/Cab bus via RJ12 however you will need an separate adaptor like the UTP to daisy chain the AEU into that RJ12 command/cab network as well.  is not the best wording.

 

If you want to power a number of high start current devices from the Alpha Switch D/encoder, and have a totally separate accessory system from the track, then the way forward is an Alpha Box and suitable power supply. 

 

If using one DCC system and then wanting separate accessory and track buses, then as mentioned in above posts, a PSX1 breaker fitted on the track bus is the way to go. (I obtained mine from DCC Concepts!)

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Vistisen]

Hi Mick

 

Thank you for your explanation. I think my major problem is that I have totally misunderstood the purpose of the sniffer. I thought that it was intended to sit on a DCC bus and 'sniff out' the accessory signals and send them on a low powered accessory bus, When in fact it does the exact opposite and generates the signals of am accessory bus and injects them into the main dcc bus. I think the name sniffer is a bit misleading ( especially to an IT man who thinks of sniffing as something that detects information,usually illegally, rather than something that creates information).

 

I think I managed to fry my sniffer anyway trying to run a power cab through it. as now it does nothing...  Still it did not cost that much! RTFM

Edited April 2, 2018 by Vistiaen

[Nigelcliffe]

Hi Mick

 

Thank you for your explanation. I think my major problem is that I have totally misunderstood the purpose of the sniffer. I thought that it was intended to sit on a DCC bus and 'sniff out' the accessory signals and send them on a low powered accessory bus, When in fact it does the exact opposite and generates the signals of am accessory bus and injects them into the main dcc bus. I think the name sniffer is a bit misleading ( especially to an IT man who thinks of sniffing as something that detects information,usually illegally, rather than something that creates information).

 

You won't be the first or last to get it wrong from the misleading names used.    In this case its a bonkers name,  "DCC signal generator" , or "Accessory Only Command Station" would be accurate, and some sub-text to explain what it actually does.     As you say, "Sniffer" means the opposite to what it does. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

It took me a while to work it out myself, before it dawned on me.

As Vistiaen and Nigel have just said, the "SNX Alpha Sniffer" is inappropriately named as it isn't a sniffer at all.

As Mick reports, it was originally designed as an adapter to feed the sniffer ports on any DCC system that has them fitted.

 

The SNX is effectively a limited (i.e. accessory) command station with a 1 amp booster built in.

Hence its ability to be used as an independent, stand-alone DCC accessory system.

 

 

p.s.

The Alpha Box has a sniffer function, to read the host DCC system's track output, to feed the Alpha Box's booster and pass on to any additional Alpha Box's, if used.

If I've figured it out correctly, the Alpha Box booster also contains the SNX's command station function, on its Cobalt Alpha connection socket.

 

Alpha Mimic also has sniffer capability.

(edit: see following posts)

 

 

.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[newbryford]

It took me a while to work it out myself, before it dawned on me.

As Vistiaen and Nigel have just said, the "SNX Alpha Sniffer" is inappropriately named as it isn't a sniffer at all.

As Mick reports, it was originally designed as an adapter to feed the sniffer ports on any DCC system that has them fitted.

 

The SNX is effectively a limited (i.e. accessory) command station with a 1 amp booster built in.

Hence its ability to be used as an independent, stand-alone DCC accessory system.

 

 

p.s.

The Alpha Box has a sniffer function, to read the host DCC system's track output, to feed the Alpha Box's booster and pass on to any additional Alpha Box's, if used.

If I've figured it out correctly, the Alpha Box booster also contains the SNX's command station function, on its Cobalt Alpha connection socket.

 

Alpha Mimic also has sniffer capability.

 

 

 

.

 

In reality, Alpha Mimic is a decoder with 12 consecutive addresses - that control 12 pairs of very low current reversing DC to operate LEDs.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Ron Ron Ron]

In reality, Alpha Mimic is a decoder with 12 consecutive addresses - that control 12 pairs of very low current reversing DC to operate LEDs.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

Good point there Mick.

Thanks for that, it makes perfect sense.

The beer must 'av gone to me 'ed earlier.

 

 

.

[Eveannessant]

I know that this thread is old, but there's an important point being missed if an NCE UTP is used with a 12vdc source, the instructions MUST be closely followed, with the incoming RJ12 lead (from the NCE Power Pro or Power House) being connected to the correct RJ12 socket as is marked on the UTP PCB. This stops 12 vdc being back fed in to the Powerhouse or Power Pro controller, which apparently can cause major issues that can only be resolved by NCE.

 

Presumably the same is true with the Powercab and SB5 booster combination?

 

I've used the DCC Concepts Alpha Panels, but I cannot find any documentation regarding this issue, nor is the PCB marked in any way. I'm very tempted to add a NCE UTP in my cab bus at an appropriate place if it ever needs more power, that way I can be certain.

 

As is stated above DCC Concepts "manuals" are at best confusing and in some cases misleading. I think that there's far too much sales bull**** and not enough facts. That being said the staff at DCC Concepts are some of the most helpful people that I've come across, and the company's after sales care is second to none.