Plastic and Sugar Taxes.

[Dunsignalling]

I'll take sugar over Aspartame any day of the week John.

 

C6T.

I've always avoided that since I read it was carcinogenic about twenty years ago.

 

Mind you, at the risk of repetition, pretty much everything is carcinogenic (as well as bad for you in other ways) if you absorb too much of it.

 

Also, what some of the substances we dabble with (or used to) as modellers can do to various bits of the human body is enough to make your hair stand on end (if it hasn't already caused it to fall out). 

 

John

Edited April 9, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

Yep. It’s to put us off buying them, and provoke conversations like the one in this thread.

 

None of us will suffer unduly if we carry our own shopping bag, drink less coke, and buy fewer takeaway cups.

 

I think I'm winning - I've got a Waitrose Christmas special issue shopping bag which is so old that most Waitrose staff can't identify the year it appeared in that style, when it wears out I have two re-usable bags which Tesco gave away before the 5p charge came in.  I only, very occasionally, drink Coke Zero so that isn't affected by the tax, and I don't but takeaway cups of anything as I regard the contents as verging on undrinkable and  the price as a joke in sufficient bad taste to match the contents of the cup.  But we do use milk which comes in plastic bottles (they go in the recycling bin) and the occasional glass of 'fortified water (various)' which comes in either an aluminium keg (alas) if purchased at a hostelry or a glass bottle.

 

My biggest objection is to plastics which can't be recycled although I believe in our area some of them are now going to incineration.  Any food put in the recycling bin (the compost heap is too far down the garden for winter use) goes into a bio-digestor and finishes up as garden compost while the gas is used to generate electricity as long as the plant doesn't blow up first (it has blown up once so far).    But I'm one of those horrible people who has reduced his CO2 footprint by buying a car with a diesel engine so I'm now some sort of social leper thanks to that helpful approach.

 

I wonder what they could tax - apart from diesel cars - that will hit me in the pocket?

[melmerby]

 

  So does one of these bags last 60 trips before a hole gets punched into the bottom or a handle breaks off and the bag has to be replaced?

 

Yes, I am using "bags for life" that are several years old.

 

 

We need waste disposal systems that do not demand that all non recyclable waste is bagged in a plastic bag.

 

Our non recyclable rubbish is not bagged

 

Keith

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by melmerby

[Mike Storey]

I have never thrown a plastic bag in the sea, but I know that the bags I have used have ended up in the sea - and despite my careful placing them in the bin.

 

If you have ever driven by a waste site you will have noted the plastic in the trees and the fences fluttering in the wind like Tibetan prayer flags.  When these break away, as they will in high winds, the pieces end up in ditches and streams and then get washed into rivers and the sea.

 

So please let's not have I am holy enough not to be  culprit.

 

So for all of you now thinking that the plastic bag restrictions was a worthwhile exercise that has improved the environment, I think I may be about to disappoint.

 

One of the first countries in Europe to introduce a ban on carrier bags was Ireland.  Ireland has no indigenous plastics industry to it is easy to track the consumption of plastics and in particular Polyethylene (PE) by virtue of its import records.

 

Clearly stopping giving away billions of PE plastic bags every year would lead to a reduction in usage.

 

Wrong.  Consumption of PE went up.

 

The reasons are simple.  Giving away bags meant that the supermarkets ensured that these bags were optimised to within a micron.  Who hasn't in the past put a box into a bag and seen the corner score down the bag opening up a big split?  Bags were typically 10 microns thick, with some down to 5 microns.

 

So with the ban, came bags we had to pay for - but these could not afford to be so optimised that they might split between the cashier and the car boot.  So instead of 5 -10 micron bags we were sold 30-50 micron bags - so we stopped getting free bags but bought bags that were typically 5 times thicker using 5 times more material.  Then of course there was the bag-for-life.  Construction of these varies a lot but some come in at a whopping 600 micron thickness (60 times the thickness of the old freebie).  So does one of these bags last 60 trips before a hole gets punched into the bottom or a handle breaks off and the bag has to be replaced?

 

 

And worse; it seems that as many as 60% of the old freebies were given a second life - usually lining out waste bins in the kitchen and bathroom.  So when the supply of free bags dried up, people were forced to go out and buy new bin liners.  Just like the new carrier bags, those making and selling these bags could not afford for the bags to fail, so again instead of a 10 micron free sack, you have a 30 micron sack costing a few pence.  Again an increase in use of plastic rather than a reduction.

 

 

When the Irish ban was being proposed, the plastics manufacturers were a bit concerned and lobbied against the ban.  Since then their silence speaks volumes.  For them it is a double win; we consume more of their materials and because many of the free bags were imported in bulk from China because of their light weight, they would now be replaced by local production of heavier and more voluminous products that cannot be shipped around the world so cost effectively.

 

 

[For anyone interested in more information, I recommend a book called "The Plastic Bag Wars" Hugo Verlome pub: 2006.  He is a marine biologist and concluded the battle was worth it despite the contrary result.  I strongly disagree.]

 

If we really want to have things different we need recycle systems that take plastic films.  We need waste disposal systems that do not demand that all non recyclable waste is bagged in a plastic bag.

 

But if you are really worried by micro-plastics in the ocean then consider your acrylic, nylon and other plastics based clothing.  Every time you put them through the wash, fibres break off and go straight into the drains*  these will be too fine to be captured in the sewage treatment plants and are likely to be washed straight into the rivers.

 

* If you have a tumble drier you will see the quantity of these broken fibres that did not get washed out.

 

I see your point but I think you are missing the point.

 

Even if heavier duty bags end up on a tip, they are less likely to blow away into a river or ocean before being buried. But in the main, at least here, they can go in the recycling bin anyway.

 

The fact that the bags are more economic to make domestically rather than a journey of several thousand miles, is also a good thing. That will account for the additional PE?

 

I have several bags I have used regularly for several years, probably at least twice a week. Those that do get too worn for food shopping then get used for carrying logs, or filling with rubble for the tip, for which they get used several times too. When they get too bad for that, the thickish plastic is good for a number of other uses - lining hanging baskets, covering wet concrete etc etc. Very few of mine have ever ended up in the recycling bin until completely knackered. I am sure many people do something similar these days, but maybe some don't. The point is that we have been made to understand that this is not a throwaway resource any more, and hopefully many have changed their behaviours accordingly.

[wombatofludham]

It always mildly amuses me when some of my holier than thou greenwashing friends berate me for driving a 2 litre Saab 9-5 estate, being a gas-guzzling and dirty old car when they drive a less than 1 litre shopping trolley or electric roller skate bought new. They seem to think chopping in an old car for some new bionic duckweed fart powered buggy is the way to save the planet. I just respond by pointing out that making a brand new car uses far more energy and throws out more carbon dioxides than what my car will consume even if I keep it going for ten years or more, that hybrids and electric trolleys largely use lithium batteries, a rare metal that is highly toxic and will no doubt come back to bite us all on the bum when it's time to replace it and dispose of the old battery, and that a lot of small cars use extensive amounts of plastic and composites to keep down weight, which has resource and recyclability implications.

 

Basically keeping older cars going for as long as possible will do more for the environment than using gigawatts of energy to build new ones, as well as supporting local employment in garages and the like.

 

I also point out that by doing what we town planners call "linked trips" (i.e. making one car journey by combining say a trip to the doctor with a trip to the supermarket and the recycling centre rather than three separate journeys) I've dramatically cut my actual annual mileage by a significant amount (about a third) without compromising on convenience or comfort. The fact that they buzz around making lots of separate trips on different days because they couldn't run a bath let alone their own lives, and have no concept of personal organisation, not only increases their fuel bill and emissions total, but also massively increases congestion leading to demands for more road investment. We need to introduce the concept of pre-planning, linking trips and not using the car as an excuse to be disorganised and lazy to the populace, although no doubt that will go down like a big bucket of sick with the rabid libertarians in society.

[kevinlms]

What we see on the shoreline is a small segment of the problem and the stuff that can be seen is the easiest to deal with.

 

Unfortunately, we all add, invisibly, to the microplastics in the oceans every time we wash a garment made from synthetic materials.

 

I also harbour doubts about "bio-degradeable" plastic bags/packaging - do they break down into harmless compounds or just smaller, less visible, bits of plastic? 

 

John

The latter, unfortunately. Nothing beats not using them, or at least less. The catch cry is "Refuse, reduce, recycle", which best sums up the issue.

[LBRJ]

As far as I know it is the smaller less visible bits that the problem.

Its not as if the high seas are awash with carrier bags (though Iam sure they are) its that micro beads of plastic are literally spreading all over the world.

[YesTor]

It's not the sugar reduction that I see as the problem.  The issue I have is what these new 'healthy' recipes have replaced the sugar with, namely Aspartame, Acesulfame K, Sucralose and Polydextrose.  Artificial sweeteners always-upon-always taste bl*#dy awful, let alone the potentially carcinogenic qualities of some of these chemicals that have now been introduced not only into 'diet' drinks but now seemingly all 'new recipe' soft drinks.  The choice previously was either 'standard' sugary drink, or chemical-infused 'diet' drink.  Now the choice is either chemicals, or errrrm... more chemicals. 

[Mike Storey]

It's not the sugar reduction that I see as the problem.  The issue I have is what these new 'healthy' recipes have replaced the sugar with, namely Aspartame, Acesulfame K, Sucralose and Polydextrose.  Artificial sweeteners always-upon-always taste bl*#dy awful, let alone the potentially carcinogenic qualities of some of these chemicals that have now been introduced not only into 'diet' drinks but now seemingly all 'new recipe' soft drinks.  The choice previously was either 'standard' sugary drink, or chemical-infused 'diet' drink.  Now the choice is either chemicals, or errrrm... more chemicals. 

 

.....or drinking water and/or pure juice drinks?

[LBRJ]

.....or drinking water and/or pure juice drinks?

 

pure juice drinks are likely to be full of sugar...That's kinda what fruits are!

[LBRJ]

I must admit I have an allergic reaction to any whiff of Fabianism from "the government" - It has been proved time and again that Nanny really does not know best, and she should really keep her interfering nose out of what we wish to do.

[Bon Accord]

With regard to plastic bags, Scotland was the first part of the UK to bring in the 5p levy in 2014.

In the first year of operation supermarkets/large stores reported a 80% reduction in the number of bags they dispensed. Together with that nearly £7 million was raised for good causes and charities through the 5p charge.

Not a bad effort that for 5 million people and it is noticeable that there are less bags to be seen dumped.

[Horsetan]

.....keeping older cars going for as long as possible will do more for the environment....

 

I feel vindicated.

[Mike Storey]

pure juice drinks are likely to be full of sugar...That's kinda what fruits are!

 

Some, yes, but not processed sugar, and not containing any of the chemicals people seem to be getting worried about.

[LBRJ]

Some, yes, but not processed sugar, and not containing any of the chemicals people seem to be getting worried about.

 

Any form of sugar is still sugar, and the chemicals we call sweeteners are potentially a worse option.

The problem is that humans as a species are programmed to like sweet things (same as fats and to some degree salt) - we just get far too many opportunities to indulge these days.

[rdr]

I'm a self confessed sugar fanatic, i don't drink hot drinks so my liquid intake is mainly pop. One thing i've noticed in A**A, they've removed a lot of their full sugar drink range in favour of diet varieties. What i find odd is the cloudy lemonade full sugar was a mega seller for them, often i would find empty space on the shelves if i shopped late for it. Next to the empty space would be a full stock of diet cloudy lemonade every time, so something is up as i can't see a**a stopping a line that outsells it's diet brother.

[YesTor]

.....or drinking water and/or pure juice drinks?

 

Right, but we are talking about fizzy drinks as opposed to water or juices.  If I fancy water then I'll drink water, same goes for juice; however sometimes, not always, but just occasionally I simply fancy a can of Coke and I quite like it the way it is.  Simple.

[melmerby]

Right, but we are talking about fizzy drinks as opposed to water or juices.  If I fancy water then I'll drink water, same goes for juice; however sometimes, not always, but just occasionally I simply fancy a can of Coke and I quite like it the way it is.  Simple.

Can't see the attraction of it. I used to drink it when I was younger (a lot younger) but these days, to me, it's just a bottle of not particular nice tasting gunk!

 

Keith

[Guius]

'All things in moderation' If you fancy a tin of Coke occasionally - no harm done, unfortunately fizzy sweetened brown liquid has become a daily staple for many who have been persuaded that its consumption will confer attributes such as attractiveness, social acceptance and above all 'look cool' by the advertising industry. Woe betide any government of any hue that dare to limit the profits of the said multi national by suggesting their products are less than panacea for modern life by pointing out the perils of obesity and diabetes let alone damage to the environment from disregarded packaging.

 

Guy

[Reorte]

Plastic, well, there's far too much of it around. I do get a bit annoyed at Tesco for only having the heavier duty bags for life now though, which means I end up with an extra more plastic bag if I've miscalculated and not brought enough with me. There's always a use for them somewhere though. Overall it seems to have been a positive move.

 

I'm rather less convinced about the sugar one, that being very much in the nature of trying to control individual behaviour my waving a sledgehammer that hits everyone. Neither of those are something I like. When it's mostly individuals who do something that are affected leave them to it, or at least encourage responsibility rather than enforce behaviour. And such measures are usually ignored the most by those they're supposed to target.

 

Litter's been brought up, I'd love to see people who drop that everywhere in deep trouble for it. The "I couldn't care less" attitude that must exist is disgusting. But again, any measures must be directed at those responsible, not everyone.

[melmerby]

 

Litter's been brought up, I'd love to see people who drop that everywhere in deep trouble for it. The "I couldn't care less" attitude that must exist is disgusting. But again, any measures must be directed at those responsible, not everyone.

A couple of weeks ago I was walking through a paved area of New Street Station where the cleaners were making a good job of clearing the muck up and washing it.

In front of me a person was walking along peeling an orange and just dropped the peel where the cleaners were working. Totally thoughtless behaviour.

Unfortuntely an all too common problem.

If I was one of those cleaners I would have been arrested for whacking that person with my mop!

 

keith

Edited April 10, 2018 by melmerby

[Guius]

I have a "cunning plan" to cut litter discarded from vehicles after a visit to 'drive thru (sic)' restaurants, cups, boxes, wrapping etc. would have jet printed on them the reg. number of the vehicle from which the order was taken. Local by-laws may need amending for the next stage, as this would need the local authority to levy a litter fine/tax on the owner of the car from which the litter is deemed to have been generated. A similar scheme is  operated by some local shopkeepers who write on the wrappers of things bought by young people their name, so as schools can identify persistent littering offenders.

 

Guy

[Nick C]

Our local Morrisons now has a big stack of cardboard boxes (of the sort that fruit and veg get delivered in) by the tills - so on a couple of occasions when I've forgotten to take enough bags, I've just taken one of those to carry the stuff to the car. Still use a single-use bag for raw meat though...

[melmerby]

Our local Morrisons now has a big stack of cardboard boxes (of the sort that fruit and veg get delivered in) by the tills - so on a couple of occasions when I've forgotten to take enough bags, I've just taken one of those to carry the stuff to the car. Still use a single-use bag for raw meat though...

Aldi used to do that but it seems to have stopped since the advent of "bags for life"

Raw meat should be properly wrapped at the point of sale anyway.

 

Keith

[tomparryharry]

So, lets see if I've got this right....

 

Plastic tax?

 

What about UPVC double glazing?

 

What about plastic cheese in the supermarkets?

 

Grump, Grump, Grump.

 

Fred Needle-Street,