Incident at Southall

[dibber25]

Ought to be a GORY STORIES warning on this thread. Surely there's no need to recount these in response to what was initially pretty minor by comparison. (CJL)

[The Johnster]

While feeling a little guilty for having started the goryness, I agree.

 

Georgie was asked if he wanted relief as soon as he was in contact with Old Oak panel, and with Southall shed handy could have had it very quickly, but chose to drive on to Paddington; I suspect this would not be allowed nowadays and think that this is a good thing, but that was how things were in those days.  As I have said, he was certainly affected by this dreadful experience, and perhaps would have coped better with a bit more support.  He was always willing to talk about it in context, as he believed that such matters should not be bottled up and repressed; I think he was right in this!  Perhaps it was a hangover from the war years, when people were faced with unimaginable horror on a routine basis in battles and bombings; the 'fighter pilot back in the seat as soon as he's been shot down' syndrome, keep calm and carry on.  

 

He was offered relief at Paddington as well, and nobody expected him to continue his duty, and even when he did was offered an assistant driver in case he got a bit wobbly on the way home.  This was about as much as you could expect back then; the railway had been up and running for a nigh on a century and a half and had found it's own balance between humanity and keeping the trains running.  After big accidents, wreckage was simply cleared to the side of the track once the rescue and body recovery had finished, and passengers on the newly re-opened route were treated to low speed passes of mangled and smashed coaches; at least now decency is served by sheeting them over or screening them until they can be disposed of.

 

Fancing and general prevention of trespass has improved very considerably as well, but people who want to get onto the track will always be able to if they are determined enough.  As a depression sufferer myself, and having had some pretty bleak moments at times, I cannot possibly imagine the desperation and depth of despair that anyone wanting to off themselves like this is going through, and will not condemn them.  Of course, it's not always this, and short-cutters are sometimes struck by trains, not to mention railwaymen.  All are human beings and all these incidents are tragedies, mostly avoidable ones.

Edited April 25, 2018 by The Johnster

[jjb1970]

I tend to think we should have more gore. That probably sounds like a completely stupid statement, but I really feel one reason people in certain countries have such a detached attitude on many things (such as what it really means if you launch an air strike) or are very negative about others (such as elf n'safety gone mad) is that in the developed world very few people ever have to face death, mutilation and general unpleasantness. When I first went to places like the Middle East where the news is very graphic in its coverage of violence) I found it profoundly distasteful and disrespectful to the dead, for example compare how the TV news in that part of the world will report a suicide bombing with how it is reported by our media. I changed my opinion as whilst it is disgusting to see and I do think there is a certain element of voyeurism about these things people should be faced with the reality of what that seemingly innocuous phrase about a certain number of people being injured really means. In some ways I find it less distasteful than the idea of watching for example gun camera film of aerial combat in which aircraft being blown up is reduced to entertainment and many are completely oblivious to the fact that the film footage they find so entertaining is actually film of aircrew dying, and often dying quite horribly. I feel the same about meat, many people eat meat without being able to face the reality of what meat is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a pacifist or vegetarian and I can be a real heartless *******, but I'm under no illusions of what those anodyne news stories actually mean.

[scouser]

Don't forget in the real world gore is the result of unpleasant incidents. Taking the true impact away and sanitizing life leads to worse things happening. We should all be sickened by the unpleasant side of life, maybe then it might get better.

[tomparryharry]

While working at Brecon Mountain Railway, I had a kiddie jump down to try to pass between loco & leading carriage. We were slow moving, at about 2-4MPH, as I drifted down to buffer up. Lucky for me, I had my hand on the brake which allowed us to stop on a sixpence. No buffers here; just the central coupling. When the head disappeared, I thought he'd gone under.Luckily, the kid had stopped short, otherwise I'd have squashed him. I couldn't see him as the loco smokebox obscured my view.

 

Thankfully no harm done, and a quick change of underpants ensued.

 

We had one 'nob' try to cross in front of me with a transit mini bus. The result was a severely crumpled transit, missing it's rear bodywork. However, the van contained 12 army cadets, plus the 'responsible' adult.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Reorte]

Don't forget in the real world gore is the result of unpleasant incidents. Taking the true impact away and sanitizing life leads to worse things happening. We should all be sickened by the unpleasant side of life, maybe then it might get better.

Conversely too much, especially if it's still not first-hand experience, can desensitize. Better people are shocked by it than it be something they're used to and ignore.

[The Stationmaster]

Southall is the worst from what I've been told, unfortunately mostly women in the area who have been forced into Marriages.

 

Tilehurst seems to be another 'favourite'...

 

Simon

 

Southall has long been a 'favourite spot' although Slough seems to have caught up in recent years - mainly Asian women in most cases, for the reason you mentioned.  Tilehurst was not too bad at all in the past so must be a new entrant to the scene as a 'popular' venue - the one on that side of reading always used to be around Scours Lane but maybe the railway is now much better fenced than it used to be so perhaps pewople have moved west a bit?

 

Noting Caradoc's comments the railway has long had a duty of care for drivers involved in incidents like this and on the Western the policy was always to offer them relief at the first available location or, if single-manned and wishing to carry on to provide another Driver to ride with them because of the possibility of delayed shock.  But normally the preference was to try to relieve the Driver if it was possible to so (and I've an idea that was contained in a Management Instruction as well).   People, such as drivers or those of us who have had to pick up the pieces (literally) afterwards are all different and will react in different ways but it is always important to watch for delayed shock and trauma.

 

One thing if you don't see the victim and 'only' feel the thud but very different if you do see them and that can affect people for years afterwards as was the case with one of my Drivers in South Wales.  Far less concern for the collectors of pieces in my time but going home to a nice fried breakfast always seemed to work for me and the best answer was invariably black humour.  at the first one I ever attended we were just about to reopen to trains when I noticed, and picked up, a sock lying in the cess about 300 yards from the point of impact - the police Sergeant immediately said 'we've been looking for that, are there any toes in it?'.  It's humour like that that helps a lot, far better than any sort of counselling but some people really do need professional help to deal with the trauma.

[Great Western]

The rather nasty incident at Berkley Road a few months ago I was directly involved with, the driver was seriously injured as a result of the incident and I'm lead to believe he now sports a lasting reminder of the incident in way of a scare to his face. Extremely lucky that incident wasn't two dead.

[E3109]

Royal Oak, what was the reasoning behind the driver being medscreened?

Never had that when I experienced a 'one under' and although there is no reason to decline, it seems a little inappropriate somehow.

 

 

<<<<Graphic detail in the account below so please dont read if of a mild disposition!>>>>

 

Unfortunately some controllers dont have such consideration, I was travelling pass back to my home depot when the train was involved in a fatality, I immediately went forward to assist the driver, made sure they were as well as can be expected etc, and as the driver was quite shaken I agreed to do the walk to check the train and body, the bloke who had been hit brain was on top of the front bogie and there was quite a bit of 'claret' around, the body was a bit mangled with a few bits 'detached' and the back of his head looked like the stomach scene in the alien film after the alien had made its appearance, his face looked quite normal which actually didnt help either because it then became a persons body instead of the lump of meat it had been up to that moment (its a way of dealing with it)

 

After doing this and forwarding the details on that the victim was believed to be deceased (and the reasons we had arrived at that decision) we waited for the cavalry to arrive and take charge, the driver was taken away to be med screened and interviewed etc, after I explained what I had done my 'duty of care' was being asked if I would work a replacement train forward, according to the log I volunteered to work it which was most definitely not the case!

 

Unfortunately some office based people dont realise how traumatic it can be to see the remains after a person has been struck by a train travelling at speed, it is reasons like this I believe all controllers should come from the grade they are controlling!

[iands]

Royal Oak, what was the reasoning behind the driver being medscreened?

Never had that when I experienced a 'one under' and although there is no reason to decline, it seems a little inappropriate somehow.

Standard procedure these days for anything "safety of the line" related incidents.

 

Regards, Ian.

Edited April 28, 2018 by iands

[royaloak]

Ought to be a GORY STORIES warning on this thread. Surely there's no need to recount these in response to what was initially pretty minor by comparison. (CJL)

There is at the top of my post #22, JJB might be on to something because unfortunately most people dont understand what "person hit by a train" actually means, they assume (incorrectly most of the time) that it means a body has to be removed, what it actually means is a jigsaw of indeterminate pieces needs to be collected, and sometimes those pieces can be a long way away from the original impact site. I remember one at Surbiton where the head detached and was launched by the flexible fly doors over 250 yards up the track, they knew they were missing the head and couldnt re-open the lines until it was found, but they couldnt find it because it was so far away from the rest of the remains, after a couple of hours it was recovered but it delayed things by over a hour.

 

Royal Oak, what was the reasoning behind the driver being medscreened?

Never had that when I experienced a 'one under' and although there is no reason to decline, it seems a little inappropriate somehow.

 

 

Standard practice at both TOCs I have worked for as it removes any chance of it being used as a reason to try and blame the driver, we are also subject to random checks as and when they decide to do them, while not compelled to take them, refusal will normally result in a P45. We all know and accept the rules when we take the job on.

Edited April 28, 2018 by royaloak

[royaloak]

Southall has long been a 'favourite spot' although Slough seems to have caught up in recent years - mainly Asian women in most cases, for the reason you mentioned.  Tilehurst was not too bad at all in the past so must be a new entrant to the scene as a 'popular' venue - the one on that side of reading always used to be around Scours Lane but maybe the railway is now much better fenced than it used to be so perhaps pewople have moved west a bit?

 

Noting Caradoc's comments the railway has long had a duty of care for drivers involved in incidents like this and on the Western the policy was always to offer them relief at the first available location or, if single-manned and wishing to carry on to provide another Driver to ride with them because of the possibility of delayed shock.  But normally the preference was to try to relieve the Driver if it was possible to so (and I've an idea that was contained in a Management Instruction as well).   People, such as drivers or those of us who have had to pick up the pieces (literally) afterwards are all different and will react in different ways but it is always important to watch for delayed shock and trauma.

 

One thing if you don't see the victim and 'only' feel the thud but very different if you do see them and that can affect people for years afterwards as was the case with one of my Drivers in South Wales.  Far less concern for the collectors of pieces in my time but going home to a nice fried breakfast always seemed to work for me and the best answer was invariably black humour.  at the first one I ever attended we were just about to reopen to trains when I noticed, and picked up, a sock lying in the cess about 300 yards from the point of impact - the police Sergeant immediately said 'we've been looking for that, are there any toes in it?'.  It's humour like that that helps a lot, far better than any sort of counselling but some people really do need professional help to deal with the trauma.

Agree 100% with everything you say but it is the people involved in the highlighted bit I have the greatest respect for, I remember the one I helped at where the train was taken back to the the nearest platform with me in the (now rear) cab giving the driver the signal to stop in the correct place so the remains could be removed, while this was taking place I stood on the opposite side of the cab looking out the door window with my back to it, I knew what they were having to recover and didnt want to see it again, huge respect to the people who have to do it.

 

Unfortunately the TOCs and FOCs have had a lot of practice at getting the procedures correct after an incident like these.

Edited April 28, 2018 by royaloak

[Allegheny1600]

I can deal with the descriptions of "gore" and what happens to a human being hit by a train "relatively" well (it's physics and biology) but this;

Southall is the worst from what I've been told, unfortunately mostly women in the area who have been forced into Marriages.

Tilehurst seems to be another 'favourite'...

Simon

I find desperately sad indeed. (not having a go at you, Simon btw).

I make no bones about it, I cherish women, all women from anywhere and everywhere and to think that some of these poor souls are treated in such a way - by their own families - as to end up throwing themselves under a train as their way out, leaves me feeling very depressed.

These women are citizens of this country and I feel they have been abandoned, something should be done.

I don't know what but I do know that if it were a media 'hobby horse', we would hear a lot more about it.

I've spent until now, trying to find words to express how I feel without sounding racist or sexist about this matter.

John.

[Oldddudders]

I can deal with the descriptions of "gore" and what happens to a human being hit by a train "relatively" well (it's physics and biology) but this;

I find desperately sad indeed. (not having a go at you, Simon btw).

I make no bones about it, I cherish women, all women from anywhere and everywhere and to think that some of these poor souls are treated in such a way - by their own families - as to end up throwing themselves under a train as their way out, leaves me feeling very depressed.

These women are citizens of this country and I feel they have been abandoned, something should be done.

I don't know what but I do know that if it were a media 'hobby horse', we would hear a lot more about it.

I've spent until now, trying to find words to express how I feel without sounding racist or sexist about this matter.

John.

 

It is a fact that when people move from one country to another, they tend to take their beliefs and customs with them. So I still drink English tea, which the French struggle to make. So it is with people who have a less democratic outlook on relationships and marriage, due to their cultural origins, and they too carry on as before. Unfortunately, the obvious freedom of Western women in such matters must further increase the feelings of hopelessness among those whose marital choice is ordained by others. 

[jjb1970]

At the risk of dragging a thread off topic even by my own standards of thread drifting, I think that we should be more assertive as a society when it comes to certain things. I'm a libertarian (sometimes called an anarchist and anarcho-capitalist by my friends) and have zero truck for government interference in how we live our lives most of the time but when it comes to certain cultural norms which are used to treat women as possessions it is about protecting the right of those women to make their own choices and decisions without being subject to familial intimidation and violence and effective being treated as slaves. Tolerance is good, but tolerance of some things is less tolerance than madness.

[TEDDYBEAR D9521]

Having been on the other end of the call from the Driver that he thinks he,s hit someone or being line side looking for the body which I have done many times none of it is very pleasant believe me for anyone involved.

[rab]

It is a fact that when people move from one country to another, they tend to take their beliefs and customs with them. So I still drink English tea, which the French struggle to make. So it is with people who have a less democratic outlook on relationships and marriage, due to their cultural origins, and they too carry on as before. Unfortunately, the obvious freedom of Western women in such matters must further increase the feelings of hopelessness among those whose marital choice is ordained by others.

 

Sorry for contributing to thread drift

but whatever happened to:

When in Rome do as the Romans do?

[Andy Y]

When in Rome do as the Romans do?

Coming over here building their fancy roads and their central heating without so much as a by your leave, just who did they think they were?

[The Johnster]

Ok, apart from the roads, education, santition, the rule of law, proper drainage, literacy, stone/brick buildings, concrete, surveying, engineering, baths and proper toilets, and a load of other stuff I've forgotten for the moment, what did the Romans ever do for us?

 

.

[The Stationmaster]

Ok, apart from the roads, education, santition, the rule of law, proper drainage, literacy, stone/brick buildings, concrete, surveying, engineering, baths and proper toilets, and a load of other stuff I've forgotten for the moment, what did the Romans ever do for us?

 

######.

 

You'd be surprised

[PenrithBeacon]

At the risk of dragging a thread off topic even by my own standards of thread drifting, I think that we should be more assertive as a society when it comes to certain things. I'm a libertarian (sometimes called an anarchist and anarcho-capitalist by my friends) and have zero truck for government interference in how we live our lives most of the time but when it comes to certain cultural norms which are used to treat women as possessions it is about protecting the right of those women to make their own choices and decisions without being subject to familial intimidation and violence and effective being treated as slaves. Tolerance is good, but tolerance of some things is less tolerance than madness.

Forced marriage is illegal in this country.

[phil-b259]

Forced marriage is illegal in this country.

 

Indeed.

 

However sometimes the distinction between 'Arranged' (which is perfectly legal) and 'forced' (which isn't) becomes blurred.

 

Without an official complaint to the police by the victim it becomes very difficult to prove that any marriage is 'forced'  which those doing the forcing are well aware of. All sorts of intimidatory tactics can be applied to ensure that the victim of a forced marriage is unwilling to make matters official and keep up the pretence of it being an 'arranged' one - sometimes with tragic results when it comes to suicides......

[Siberian Snooper]

Ok, apart from the roads, education, santition, the rule of law, proper drainage, literacy, stone/brick buildings, concrete, surveying, engineering, baths and proper toilets, and a load of other stuff I've forgotten for the moment, what did the Romans ever do for us?

 

######.

You forgot the most important one, Viticulture!!, but apart from that what have the Romans done for us?

[E3109]

Indeed.

 

However sometimes the distinction between 'Arranged' (which is perfectly legal) and 'forced' (which isn't) becomes blurred.

 

Without an official complaint to the police by the victim it becomes very difficult to prove that any marriage is 'forced' which those doing the forcing are well aware of. All sorts of intimidatory tactics can be applied to ensure that the victim of a forced marriage is unwilling to make matters official and keep up the pretence of it being an 'arranged' one - sometimes with tragic results when it comes to suicides......

Without elaborating on this subject (Rules etc!) I respectfully refer you to the appalling case of Shafilea Ahmed sir.

The day when the 'rules' interpreted from a book, trump the bond between parent and child, well we may as well give up any semblance of humanity.

We haven't got there yet but I do fear we're getting close to it.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Andy Y
Contentious reference removed