New crowdfunded project from Lococraft - LMS diesels 10000/10001

[chris p bacon]

Andy -

 

IMHO I really do think this thread should now be locked. Inuendo and even allegations are flying thick and fast, rather than just general observations - whilst at the same time it seems there is some mystery surrounding the whole project as well - at least some contributors seem to have suspicions anyway!

 

I'm sure I'm not alone as an 'outsider' reading this thread, when I say that I find much of it totally confusing/incomprehensible.

 

It might be time to lock it down before any legal lines are crossed, but of course it is not my decision - only a respectfully made suggestion.

 

DJP/MMP

 

 

If the thread is locked how could the questions to the 'mystery' be answered ?

 

 

I am minded to recall a conversation with my accountant about 25 years ago when I moved from sole trader to a ltd company,  I asked what the benefits were and IIRC his answer was " give someone else the liability"

[kirtleypete]

I think if things were going to be made clear it would have happened by now.  I won't be investing! 

 

Pete

[woodenhead]

I'm out and I don't even model O

[cromptonnut]

I'm out and I don't even model O

 

I do, but it's outside my period of interest.

[Captain Cuttle]

Hello everybody.

Ok guys, and thanks for the question, and to answer that question about the bogie CAD design, this is the standard drive unit that the company have designed to power all their loco's with the CO-Co wheel arrangement, which they supply to business's around the globe, it's a good, robust, proven design, its a standard component  that they fit.

Just to change the subject slightly chap's, I'm thinking of looking into having a replacement gear train unit produced en masse, as a replacement for Co-Co loco's that come in large blue box's, Not only would the gears be more robust, possibly even brass, but it would also convert the bogie to an all axle drive unit, I'm in the fortunate position of living near a very good toolmaker who would help with the design and production. Currently, this is only at the idea stage........so you're thoughts are most welcome on this subject.

Regarding the Lococraft page.....as crowdfunding is becoming more popular, it seems a better way to go, HOWEVER, let me re-assure everybody, IF THE PROJECT DOES NOT PROCEED, EVERYBODY WILL HAVE ALL MONIES PAID RETURNED FORTHWITH.........however gents, the only thing it will cost is the price of an envelope and a first class stamp, to return your money.

Many thanks to those who have wished success to Lococraft.

Regards 

 

Jeff

Jeff,

So which businesses around the world do you supply to and are they fine scale bogies?

Regards

 

Alan

[kirtleypete]

The bogie in the CAD drawing has an incorrect wheelbase for the LMS loco's.

 

Peter

[chris p bacon]

Jeff,

So which businesses around the world do you supply to and are they fine scale bogies?

Regards

 

Alan

 

I'm guessing it's not Lococrafts bogie,  but one that the company he intends to contract to already makes.

[midlandsbloke]

This seems to be a very rum way to do business.  Your real name is Jeff Lynch, which is how you are registered as a director on Companies House. Your false name is Graham Jones. Graham Jones is the real name of the proprietor of the model railway firm NMRS Models located in Northampton just over one hour's drive from your registered and service addresses. NMRS Models specialises in O Gauge and does some Z Gauge. Hopefully, there will be no confusion, but it may be helpful for you to state clearly that you have no connection with NMRS Models. 

 

Charles Trelawney

Thanks for the heads up Charles, and no...I had no idea whatsoever there was another Graham jones involved in the model railway business.....I use the pseudonym to avoid my ex wife prying into my affairs...I've used the pseudonym for years........purely random chance.

[midlandsbloke]

“.however gents, the only thing it will cost is the price of an envelope and a first class stamp, to return your money.”

 

Does this mean he’ll mail us back our money if it’s not successful?

 

Brian

Absolutely....without hesitation.....as it say's on the website Brian. Happy to help. Jeff

[midlandsbloke]

I'm guessing it's not Lococrafts bogie,  but one that the company he intends to contract to already makes.

Hello Alan, and thanks for the question. Ok....you are totally correct.....the manufacturer has a standard design that they use for other models, it's a good reliable robust unit and they supply models to other markets, especially the U.S. I've approached the company on a strong recommendation....and they have an extensive knowledge of the British model railway scene, especially O gauge. We approached this particular company as they make a drive unit with 3 powered axles....most don't.

I hope this has answered you're question Alan.

Jeff

[midlandsbloke]

The bogie in the CAD drawing has an incorrect wheelbase for the LMS loco's.

 

Peter

Hello Pete....yes, you are absolutely correct.....the CAD drawing was used to illustrate just the gear train...when viewing the bogie from the side, the LMS twins had varying wheelbase within it's bogies...for instance, axle 1 to axle 2 (the centre axle) was a different measurement from axle 3. Rest assured this difference will be addressed during the design stage.

Thank's for the heads up Pete.

 

Regards, Jeff

[midlandsbloke]

Jeff,

So which businesses around the world do you supply to and are they fine scale bogies?

Regards

 

Alan

Hello Alan...ok...I think I need to clear up some confusion here.....I don't supply any other company....Lococraft is a first time venture for me, however, the company who I have contacted to produce the model's of 10000 and 10001 DO produce for other companies overseas, their wealth of experience is excellent, and yes, the model's will be finescale bogie's. I hope this has helped Alan.

 

Jeff

[midlandsbloke]

Hello Jeff,

Firstly, having posted your intro - thank you for taking the time to reply to my comments earlier.

 

In many ways I cannot fault your comments and I totally agree that O Gauge should (like N and OO) be available to as many as possible. However, I believe (and this is only my personal opinion) that there is a critical point being missed.

 

It is admirable to have the view that you have, but in today’s world there are several major problems. Firstly, money is hard won, so people are usually cautious at letting go of it. Secondly, many schemes have promised and then failed to deliver for a number of reasons, and thirdly crowdfunding while a great principal tries to convince everyone this is a way of doing things, but gives no guarantees at all.

 

I am not, in anyway assuming, suggesting or trying to imply that this project will fail to deliver, but people need to be able to judge whether it is a risk worth taking. I therefore think you need to establish credibility and a reputation. This is not asking people to stump up £20 for a wagon, it is a serious amount of money, and I note that none of the answers have mentioned what the funding plan is, ie is it all crowdfunded or has the business, it’s owners or backers put up funds.

 

My feeling is that you really need to think hard about what is proposed and how it is communicated - your background, the level that the models are going to (ie is this a Heljan standard, or are you pushing the boundaries like Little Loco Company), who is doing the CAD design, what the skills are of those involved, what the production plan and backup plans are, for example. I said earlier crowdfunding can work, but it requires much more information to be available in the public domain, akin to a business investor going through the books.

 

It seems to me, with no disrespect intended, that the public feeling is you have appeared on the scene asking for money to produce a model, but nobody knows you, the company is new so has no track record, the company is handling the crowdfunding, rather than a funding platform like Kickstarter, so there are no guarantees of a refund if the project failed to meet its targets. There’s no credit card option that gives people some security. Have you spoken to or involved the Gauge O Guild? There are far more questions than answers, and the fact that within a couple of days of launching, you have amended dates after one conversation would make me question how much thought and planning has gone into things?

 

I know the above may sound negative and I apologise for that. I hope you succeed in your aims, but you asked for a view. I shall be interested to read the response, and I also have to say I would totally agree with all the questions raised by Andy Y. Andy and his fellow colleagues across all modelling magazines may be some of your best supporters if you can convince them of the soundness of the project, and that it is viable and well thought through.

 

Rich

Hello Rich...and thanks for the message....sorry, I'm not ignoring you, I'm on a tight schedule tonight...very late getting in from work....a six car pile up!.....So when I get home tomorrow night, I'll reply to the above message

Many thanks.

 

Jeff

[Colin_McLeod]

Thanks for the heads up Charles, and no...I had no idea whatsoever there was another Graham jones involved in the model railway business.....I use the pseudonym to avoid my ex wife prying into my affairs...I've used the pseudonym for years........purely random chance.

I would have a problem dealing with a businesman who does not use his real name on the publicity for his new venture. The reason you give is to keep your ex wife from knowing. Is there any issus with her that could adversly affect the project? That would be important for a potential customer to know before parting with cash.

 

 

 

By the way: Is your ex wife a member of RMweb?

[Dava]

I do wonder if there is a rush to summary justice via the social media kangaroo court going on here? Most of us modelling in gauge 0 want to see greater supplier diversity and innovation in the RTR market, not just 'blue boxes'. Lococraft have been given lots of market feedback on the business proposition and with any sense will want to reflect and review this before coming back with a more acceptable v.2. Innovation is iterative by its nature.

 

I've suggested before that making a personal appearance with 3D CADs or prints at one of the upcoming events such as Guildex or the handy local GCR model gala in June [i'm sure a table could be found!] would be one way of establishing a relationship with potential customers. People buy people.

 

Let's not forget how patient we have been with certain other gauge 0 suppliers, such as those who announce new models which take years to materialize [if at all, anyone waiting for a class 23?], those who take customers payments whilst effectively trading as insolvent then close the business, which then re-appears under new ownership, or simply experience repeated problems with manufacturers which push the delivery date years back? There is a forum running on the G0G site about a kit supplier with a name like a dodgy taxi firm which has been selling equally dodgy kits for decades and getting away with it. So personally I'd like to see Mr Lynch being given a chance to 'pivot' his business proposition and return with a stronger one.

 

The loco is too big for me, anyway I'm still waiting for that Ruston 48DS, no wait, they cancelled my order!

[midlandsbloke]

I would have a problem dealing with a businesman who does not use his real name on the publicity for his new venture. The reason you give is to keep your ex wife from knowing. Is there any issus with her that could adversly affect the project? That would be important for a potential customer to know before parting with cash.

 

 

 

By the way: Is your ex wife a member of RMweb?

Probably not Colin....but she know's I'm into O gauge railways....some ex's can't let go. I don't wish her to know my business, as simple as that. 

[midlandsbloke]

I do wonder if there is a rush to summary justice via the social media kangaroo court going on here? Most of us modelling in gauge 0 want to see greater supplier diversity and innovation in the RTR market, not just 'blue boxes'. Lococraft have been given lots of market feedback on the business proposition and with any sense will want to reflect and review this before coming back with a more acceptable v.2. Innovation is iterative by its nature.

 

I've suggested before that making a personal appearance with 3D CADs or prints at one of the upcoming events such as Guildex or the handy local GCR model gala in June [i'm sure a table could be found!] would be one way of establishing a relationship with potential customers. People buy people.

 

Let's not forget how patient we have been with certain other gauge 0 suppliers, such as those who announce new models which take years to materialize [if at all, anyone waiting for a class 23?], those who take customers payments whilst effectively trading as insolvent then close the business, which then re-appears under new ownership, or simply experience repeated problems with manufacturers which push the delivery date years back? There is a forum running on the G0G site about a kit supplier with a name like a dodgy taxi firm which has been selling equally dodgy kits for decades and getting away with it. So personally I'd like to see Mr Lynch being given a chance to 'pivot' his business proposition and return with a stronger one.

 

The loco is too big for me, anyway I'm still waiting for that Ruston 48DS, no wait, they cancelled my order!

Dava, thanks for you're very supportive posting...and I apologise for wishing to make loco's out of you're scale....sorry. Obviously, I will agree that social media can throw up negative's, however, I believe the posts here haven't been intended that way, in fact there have been good wishes from quite a few people here, and for that I am extremely  grateful.

However, I went into this fully aware that there will be one or two detractor's here who will pour scorn on any new venture, it's just human nature.....however, what I would say to those folks would be this.....if you aren't happy with what I'm proposing, then be my guest and try setting up a business to produce Loco's yourself, although not stressful (yet)...its very challenging, the hours spent sourcing design drawings, sourcing a manufacturer that can deliver a quality product, giving up hours and hours sending e-mails to the far east..endless phone call's, designing a website...the list goes on and on and on.

And yes, we have been patient with some suppliers, but as suppliers, we can't be "all things to all men" Lococraft's philosophy is to try and fill a gap in the market with the support of crowdfunders, indeed, a question has been asked "Who are you're backers?" well, the simple answer is the crowdfunder's themselves, they are playing an active role by supporting Lococraft, and in return, we wish to supply quality products for our supporters, at a reasonable price, in keeping with current pricing of ready to run models.

I think you hit the nail on the head with Dava with you're comment of summary justice....as it would seem to be apparent that one or two people think that Lococraft would "gamble" with their hard earn't cash....NEVER!

As I have repeatedly stated, if the target is not met, we will never commit funds to the project, and refunds will be returned to those who have subscribed...I'm not sure if the webpage has been read through.

You mentioned about the GCR modelling gala....yes, I looked at that, but it was totally sold out last year, which is a pity, as that's a bloody good day out...if it's not raining.....maybe the year after though!

Once again, thank you for you're positive comments....and happy modelling for the future Dava

 

Best wishes.

Jeff

[midlandsbloke]

I could think of a more popular choice of prototype

 

Paul R

Hello Paul, do tell...I'm interested in your personal choice.

Jeff

[HullCityB17]

A few questions if I may?

How much Customer Research has been done to see if you can actually sell enough LMS Twins without ending up in the same situation as Heljan and there O Gauge Falcoln where it was supposed to be a popular choice but there market is still awash with unsold models which cannot be easily modified to say a Class 47?

I know a bit about Crowd funding and it helps if you propose an idea that you know people will contribute to and not propose some in the vain hope you may get people interested.

 

Was it case of no-one else does the LMS Twins and I want a pair in O Gauge so I will get them made and damn the consequences, or do you have supporting figures of potential customers?

 

Another trust issue people will have is the following "We will only accept payments by Bankers draft, Building society cheque, Electronic bank transfer (Bacs) or postal orders (unsigned).

We will not accept credit or debit cards. "

 

Now, I'm sorry but anyone offering a service for something unseen and untested for £600 where the banks cannot give a refund if your company ends up like JLTRT for example in the future then why do you think you will get many investors as a lot of people do not have cheques anymore.

 

Also why are there references on your Facebook page that certain people/modellers who have been previously mentioned have allegedly been involved in your project yet it turns out that they have had no connections with the project at all and there names are being used just like Martin Lewis by Facebook!

[midlandsbloke]

It’s not what your doing that people “want to pour scorn on “ but the way you’ve done it

You’ve created the negative yourself

Sorry but just the way I see it .i model 0 gauge ,pre order and I’m willing to be part of the Crowdfunders for the LLC class 50 but at this time with what I’ve read and the way you’ve gone about this, I wouldn’t consider Crowdfunding or buying from you

Sorry but I’ve no faith in how your going about it

 

Brian

Each unto their own Brian, you are perfectly entitled to you're opinion, which I value, but I have tried to keep the webpage and ethos of Lococraft reasonably basic, so that all can make an informed decision whether to buy into what we are providing.

Thanks

Jeff

[midlandsbloke]

A few questions if I may?

How much Customer Research has been done to see if you can actually sell enough LMS Twins without ending up in the same situation as Heljan and there O Gauge Falcoln where it was supposed to be a popular choice but there market is still awash with unsold models which cannot be easily modified to say a Class 47?

I know a bit about Crowd funding and it helps if you propose an idea that you know people will contribute to and not propose some in the vain hope you may get people interested.

 

Was it case of no-one else does the LMS Twins and I want a pair in O Gauge so I will get them made and damn the consequences, or do you have supporting figures of potential customers?

 

Another trust issue people will have is the following "We will only accept payments by Bankers draft, Building society cheque, Electronic bank transfer (Bacs) or postal orders (unsigned).

We will not accept credit or debit cards. "

 

Now, I'm sorry but anyone offering a service for something unseen and untested for £600 where the banks cannot give a refund if your company ends up like JLTRT for example in the future then why do you think you will get many investors as a lot of people do not have cheques anymore.

 

Also why are there references on your Facebook page that certain people/modellers who have been previously mentioned have allegedly been involved in your project yet it turns out that they have had no connections with the project at all and there names are being used just like Martin Lewis by Facebook!

Yes John, you are correct....now that JLTRT has sadly ceased to be, there is now a void of Locomotives in the O gauge world, and believe me, there were lots of their kits that were on my personal shopping list....so the twins were a logical choice, being so iconic. Although they only existed for less then 20 years, they would be more at home sitting amongst steam loco's than any other diesel's.

As for the comment's about payments, there are an awful lot of people who will never use a credit or debit card.....indeed, when I asked all the gentlemen at the railway club last night, a high proportion of them have never given credit card details out over the phone....and a few do not have a credit card at all!!!

Surprisingly....bank/building society cheques are still very common....I use them all the time....never had a problem. It's possibly a generational thing that more, I know a few elderly chaps who only ever deal in cash...."Money talk's" as one of them quoted.

I think too much has been read into the word of thanks to the guys on the webpage, the guys mentioned have no involvement with lococraft at all, but they have all been exceptionally helpful by giving up a lot of their time by offering advice and direction, either by phone, or e-mail, which has been absolutely invaluable, you couldn't buy that of kind of support ...so no, we are not having a Martin Lewis moment.

As for the customer research, it's simple....by talking to people in the trade, asking members of clubs, exhibitions, and many, many, other trusted people involved with model railways, but without the competition getting wind of the project.

As for the Falcon.......I think Heljan just over produced produced.....it really was something of a "One trick pony"...which, granted, could be applied to the twins.......how many people have all three livery's...probably not many, hence the unsold stock, plus the twins existed far longer, and in my opinion were ground breaking in being the first mainline diesels.

As stated previously.....If the project does not meet the required target, modellers will get their money returned, we are the only ones that will be disadvantaged.

 

Jeff

[Andy Y]

With respect to the calls to lock the thread I can see why they may be made but at present this is one of the few channels where those prospectively interested may be able to glean further information to make a decision. It's also potentially beneficial to Jeff if he can address any points raised and may give more of a positive outcome for all than if nothing is said at these early stages.

 

Although Jeff has replied to some questions I haven't seen any responses to the questions I posted about previous experience and knowledge of detail differences; these are basic questions which shouldn't be a problem to respond to.

 

I do not doubt for one second that Jeff is well intentioned with a genuine desire to see a positive outcome and that any funds received will be returned if the viable threshold is not reached (I do think deducting the cost of a stamp to return cheques a bit miserly in the wider context of the total amounts being talked about, almost as though not one penny of personal expenditure would be given). My concerns are about what happens further down the line if things do not go to plan (they never do so what contingency is factored into this?). I would imagine that an idea of costings has been given by the potential factory and that the project price has been based upon that given. But is the factory tied into that price already? I would doubt it given the knowledge of what others have to contend with. What if the initial CADs are not correct due to incomplete or incorrect information being supplied? Extra costs can occur at that stage. My earlier question about detail differences was relevant to this point; are they being designed and tooled for or would this involve further work later on? Have the factory given firm dates at which CAD, tooling, EP samples and production slots can take place. If so some projected timelines could be given but again it's unlikely to have committed to that at such an early stage.

 

Whilst the factory may have quoted a price experience shows that prices cannot be accurate until the CAD work has been completed so the factory fully understands what work is involved; if that remains bolted down there are still currency exchange variables which can happen (for seem reason they rarely seem to be favourable exchanges). Whilst Jeff has a perfect right to see a profit from the venture experience tells that these margins can be rapidly eroded by the scenarios explained above so is there sufficient contingency or a commitment to personally meet those additional costs? If not, would it be a case of coming back to investors to ask for more? I haven't seen any mention of personal capital investment from Jeff in this; is it solely crowdfunders' capital?

 

I am not against crowdfunding, I have pledged to a few (non-hobby) projects and without exception they have been delivered much later than any initial projections and from the comments down the line it would seem that any anticipated margins had evaporated. In one case the bloke didn't earn a penny out of it (in fact it cost him) and he didn't even have the money or time available to post the finished items out taking several months to do so utilising recycled packaging and paying postage from his day-job when he could.

 

Part of the reason I was asking about the CAD images earlier in the topic was that I was told that there was an intention to utilise design work that had been carried out for another 'manufacturer' with some amendments. This raises legal and ethical issues and seems at variance with the stated aim that it is designed from the ground-up from the Ivatt Society's drawings. So; are the costs based on new CAD work or adaption of existing works? If the latter is there any knowledge or adaptation of where there were inaccuracies in the previous drawings?

 

Nothing has been said about thresholds as yet; what are the targets in terms of models and how will any measurement against those targets be given. Anyone who does submit funds should have a reasonable expectation as to how far or close the project is off achieving the thresholds and whether it is likely to proceed. Further information on this may be useful in establishing whether it's even achievable, 100 units may be but a target of 10,000 would never be met.

 

Crowdfunding is risk and reward and we don't really know how large the risk is, how good the reward may be and how likely it is to happen. Desire for a degree of personal anonymity doesn't help where transparency can cultivate more confidence.

[Earl of Pembroke]

With respect to the calls to lock the thread I can see why they may be made but at present this is one of the few channels where those prospectively interested may be able to glean further information to make a decision. It's also potentially beneficial to Jeff if he can address any points raised and may give more of a positive outcome for all than if nothing is said at these early stages.

 

Although Jeff has replied to some questions I haven't seen any responses to the questions I posted about previous experience and knowledge of detail differences; these are basic questions which shouldn't be a problem to respond to.

 

I do not doubt for one second that Jeff is well intentioned with a genuine desire to see a positive outcome and that any funds received will be returned if the viable threshold is not reached (I do think deducting the cost of a stamp to return cheques a bit miserly in the wider context of the total amounts being talked about, almost as though not one penny of personal expenditure would be given). My concerns are about what happens further down the line if things do not go to plan (they never do so what contingency is factored into this?). I would imagine that an idea of costings has been given by the potential factory and that the project price has been based upon that given. But is the factory tied into that price already? I would doubt it given the knowledge of what others have to contend with. What if the initial CADs are not correct due to incomplete or incorrect information being supplied? Extra costs can occur at that stage. My earlier question about detail differences was relevant to this point; are they being designed and tooled for or would this involve further work later on? Have the factory given firm dates at which CAD, tooling, EP samples and production slots can take place. If so some projected timelines could be given but again it's unlikely to have committed to that at such an early stage.

 

Whilst the factory may have quoted a price experience shows that prices cannot be accurate until the CAD work has been completed so the factory fully understands what work is involved; if that remains bolted down there are still currency exchange variables which can happen (for seem reason they rarely seem to be favourable exchanges). Whilst Jeff has a perfect right to see a profit from the venture experience tells that these margins can be rapidly eroded by the scenarios explained above so is there sufficient contingency or a commitment to personally meet those additional costs? If not, would it be a case of coming back to investors to ask for more? I haven't seen any mention of personal capital investment from Jeff in this; is it solely crowdfunders' capital?

 

I am not against crowdfunding, I have pledged to a few (non-hobby) projects and without exception they have been delivered much later than any initial projections and from the comments down the line it would seem that any anticipated margins had evaporated. In one case the bloke didn't earn a penny out of it (in fact it cost him) and he didn't even have the money or time available to post the finished items out taking several months to do so utilising recycled packaging and paying postage from his day-job when he could.

 

Part of the reason I was asking about the CAD images earlier in the topic was that I was told that there was an intention to utilise design work that had been carried out for another 'manufacturer' with some amendments. This raises legal and ethical issues and seems at variance with the stated aim that it is designed from the ground-up from the Ivatt Society's drawings. So; are the costs based on new CAD work or adaption of existing works? If the latter is there any knowledge or adaptation of where there were inaccuracies in the previous drawings?

 

Nothing has been said about thresholds as yet; what are the targets in terms of models and how will any measurement against those targets be given. Anyone who does submit funds should have a reasonable expectation as to how far or close the project is off achieving the thresholds and whether it is likely to proceed. Further information on this may be useful in establishing whether it's even achievable, 100 units may be but a target of 10,000 would never be met.

 

Crowdfunding is risk and reward and we don't really know how large the risk is, how good the reward may be and how likely it is to happen. Desire for a degree of personal anonymity doesn't help where transparency can cultivate more confidence.

A very good post asking pertinent questions. I too would like to know how many units must be sold for the project to proceed. Similarly, I joined a crowd-funded project for a non-railway item that is now very late on delivery. The excuses have become wearisome and I can't see how I can get my money back because the items - or at least one example - has been made and assembled. Definitely a case of "once bitten..."

 

Regards,

 

Charles

[Fredb99]

My name is Graham Jones and I own an O gauge manufacturing company called NMRS Models and would like to comment that we have absolutely nothing to do with this product 

[John K]

Let us hope that in the future Mr Lynch finds one name to be adequate.

Or if he must indulge in silly charades, he does not use somebody else's name in such as way as to risk the reputation and livelihood of an honest businessman in a nearby town.

John K