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New crowdfunded project from Lococraft - LMS diesels 10000/10001

dpgibbons

By dpgibbons,
in 7mm+ modelling

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midlandsbloke

midlandsbloke

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Thanks to Jeff for his time this evening as we have had a chat for over an hour on the phone.

 

A really nice chap who has filled me in with a lot more of his personal background. We have discussed many aspects that I have questioned publicly on here such as the payment options, pseudonyms, technical details and I'll speak as I find and say that I believe Jeff is very well intentioned and had not realised how such decisions or actions could be construed. I gave a few examples in the context of payment methods and voiced the perspective that I think he is drastically limiting his chances of succeeding by not taking online payments and I believe he will be looking into this more. On pseudonyms I highlighted cases where I know people have operated anonymously where they have had prior convictions (literally) and Jeff can see how it could cause concerns. We discussed the information that I had been given about CAD sources and I feel assured that Jeff does know a lot more about detail differences and where inaccuracies lay in previous works. There is clearly an intent to try and try hard to make it succeed but I think (and he knows my comments can be brutal and blunt) that he has been, so far, listening to an echo chamber of contacts who say they don't do online payments, social media etc etc which ultimately, I feel, is limiting the chance of achieving the target quantities we discussed.

 

I hope Jeff can make some adjustments in approach and style for everyone's benefit.

Thanks for the post Andy...already looking into the other methods of sending payments Andy....speak soon, Cheers, Jeff.

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midlandsbloke

midlandsbloke

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Try buying a house with a credit card!

Cheques will continue to be necessary for certain transactions but for most consumer situations (such as a model locomotive) electronic or plastic money is the popular way to go.

 

From Jeff's viewpoint, accepting modern and traditional means of payment would open his venture up yo those who prefer modern methods and also to those who prefer more traditional methods.

Hello Colin.

Regarding the payments, the credit card payment system is being looked at now, if everybody has a particular preference of payment, then we will do everything to accommodate all buyers.

As with buying a house on a credit card, the only really big ticket item that I know was bought on a credit card was a middle eastern gentleman paying $900, 000 for a Ferrari Enzo, I bet the salesman's commision was through the roof!

Thanks Colin.

Jeff

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midlandsbloke

midlandsbloke

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Personally I would love to have the Lion prototype but I doubt it would sell enough - class 56 would also be a good option and not as yet on the radar of the company supplying large blue boxes.

 

As an aside what I don’t understand is how Heljan can proceed with a 121 DMU retailing at £450 whereas Dapol can promise a 122, which is similar for a price being offered at £250.

 

Have Dapol found a production method you could copy to keep costs down - £600 for a Co-Co diesel is very high albeit others are offering other similar products at similar prices.

 

Just a thought

 

Paul R

I agree with you Paul....it would be great to see ALL the prototypes produced in O gauge, Kestrel, Lion,DP2, maybe even the GWR Gas Turbine loco's....but as you say, they probably won't fly off the shelves...I think DP2 would be a good candidate for O gauge, as the livery changed. Now the 56 would be great...lots of livery's and they are still out on the mainline...here and overseas.

As for the price difference for the DMU's Paul, it's not for me to comment on other business's  pricing policy, but it is unusual.

Regarding copying other people's method's, that is something that would most likely incur litigation from the owner, who will have most likely have laid out huge sum's of money for the design and production of their loco's, you just couldn't go there Paul.

Not only that, CAD design is always evolving, so the designs would be outdated and unsuitable, it wouldn't be practical at all.

 

 

Very best wishes, and keep sending your loco preferences.....you may be rewarded.

Thanks.

Jeff

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woodenhead

woodenhead

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The language of the webpage and Facebook is one of here is our new product come and buy it for £600 but of course this is actually crowdfunding so it should be 'We propose to make this product and we need to sell X volumes to make it possible at a price of £600".

 

No updates to the web page to suggest anything like that so we are still in the dark on this.

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Captain Cuttle

Captain Cuttle

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I agree with you Paul....it would be great to see ALL the prototypes produced in O gauge, Kestrel, Lion,DP2, maybe even the GWR Gas Turbine loco's....but as you say, they probably won't fly off the shelves...I think DP2 would be a good candidate for O gauge, as the livery changed. Now the 56 would be great...lots of livery's and they are still out on the mainline...here and overseas.

As for the price difference for the DMU's Paul, it's not for me to comment on other business's  pricing policy, but it is unusual.

Regarding copying other people's method's, that is something that would most likely incur litigation from the owner, who will have most likely have laid out huge sum's of money for the design and production of their loco's, you just couldn't go there Paul.

Not only that, CAD design is always evolving, so the designs would be outdated and unsuitable, it wouldn't be practical at all.

 

 

Very best wishes, and keep sending your loco preferences.....you may be rewarded.

Thanks.

Jeff

Yes DP2 would be a favorite and also some Mk 2 coaches as we seem to be overwhelmed with Mk 1s now in every direction. With the Class 50 coming out by both Heljan and LLC they were at home hauling a rake of those.

Regards

Alan

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Colin_McLeod

Colin_McLeod

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The language of the webpage and Facebook is one of here is our new product come and buy it for £600 but of course this is actually crowdfunding so it should be 'We propose to make this product and we need to sell X volumes to make it possible at a price of £600".

 

No updates to the web page to suggest anything like that so we are still in the dark on this.

Do we as potential customers really need to know how many are needed to proceed? Unless I have missed it, such information was not publised on the APT-P advertisement.

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Earl of Pembroke

Earl of Pembroke

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Do we as potential customers really need to know how many are needed to proceed? Unless I have missed it, such information was not publised on the APT-P advertisement.

I rather think we do since it is the potential customers that are being asked to bear the financial risk.  I suppose I don't know enough about crowd-funding, but what happens if a project fails to come to fruition after customers' cash has been committed to design, tooling, procurement of parts etc? Obviously, we don't need to know how many units have been made when they are financed in the traditional way by the likes of Dapol, Heljan, Minerva etc. In those instances, one looks at the model, reads the reviews and then simply hands over the cash to receive the goodies straightaway. I suppose I just need to try to get comfortable with the crowd-funding business. 

 

CT

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Ian Kirk

Ian Kirk

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I would say that it was imperative that potential investors know things like: how many units are required to make the project viable? and at what (realistic estimate) price? I would also want to know how much the owners of the Company were prepared to invest of their own money (in the same way that mortgage lenders like to see a substantial deposit of your own money up front).

I must admit to not being a great fan of crowd funding. My idea of business is that if you want to own a business you set it up out of your own resources. If you see a model project that you think might sell you do your sums (and hope against hope that you were right and it is indeed what the customers want) When I moved from a small workshop into a small factory, equipped it to produce plastic kits and employed people to do the production my house (and the future well being of my family) was on the line. The customers funded this eventually but I never looked for anything until the products were sold. I am sure that the earlier generation of model railway businesses like: Bob Wills, George Mellor,etc. would never have dreamt of starting  the crowdfunding way.  Sorry. My Scottish Presbyterian upbringing coming out here.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

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81A Oldoak

81A Oldoak

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I would say that it was imperative that potential investors know things like: how many units are required to make the project viable? and at what (realistic estimate) price? I would also want to know how much the owners of the Company were prepared to invest of their own money (in the same way that mortgage lenders like to see a substantial deposit of your own money up front).

I must admit to not being a great fan of crowd funding. My idea of business is that if you want to own a business you set it up out of your own resources. If you see a model project that you think might sell you do your sums (and hope against hope that you were right and it is indeed what the customers want) When I moved from a small workshop into a small factory, equipped it to produce plastic kits and employed people to do the production my house (and the future well being of my family) was on the line. The customers funded this eventually but I never looked for anything until the products were sold. I am sure that the earlier generation of model railway businesses like: Bob Wills, George Mellor,etc. would never have dreamt of starting  the crowdfunding way.  Sorry. My Scottish Presbyterian upbringing coming out here.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Agree completely Ian. I will always trust people more who have a lot of their own skin in the game. 

 

CK

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dpgibbons

dpgibbons

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It's reassuring as a customer to see that a manufacturer has skin in the game. But this inevitably restrains the type and number of projects that they are prepared to take on. 

 

Realistically, less popular prototypes such as the LMS twins will only appear in RTR form if customers are willing to crowdfund them. This applies especially to the less popular scales.

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midlandsbloke

midlandsbloke

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Yes DP2 would be a favorite and also some Mk 2 coaches as we seem to be overwhelmed with Mk 1s now in every direction. With the Class 50 coming out by both Heljan and LLC they were at home hauling a rake of those.

Regards

Alan

Yep...I totally agree Alan...the Deltics, DP2, and the 50's...would be great in O....all of the same "Family"

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kirtleypete

kirtleypete

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If DP2 is made no one is going to buy more than one, because there was only one - that's the same as the prototype Deltic and the LMS twins but at least with those you might sell one of each. To me that's asking for trouble in terms of potential sales.

 

Peter

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pwr

pwr

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Although I think there were two liveries?

 

I have two Falcon's - one in later green and one in blue so I can run different era's but I must be the exception and DP2 is not on my list albeit Lion would be as well as Kestrel. Both of those only had one livery.

 

Sadly I think I will need to scratch build since neither would be commercially viable

 

Paul R

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Captain Cuttle

Captain Cuttle

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If DP2 is made no one is going to buy more than one, because there was only one - that's the same as the prototype Deltic and the LMS twins but at least with those you might sell one of each. To me that's asking for trouble in terms of potential sales.

 

Peter

Thats the same with all prototypes, DP2 was in two liveries but i preferred the original and remember Heljan made a 4mm version back in 2012.

Alan

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