Isambard Kingdom Brunel vacuum structure halts road scheme

[jjb1970]

To me this sums up so much of what is wrong with our country. We have thousands of bricks there which could all be sold as genuine IK Brunel bricks to collectors, each one coming in a presentation box with a certificate of authenticity. We could charge people to go in and help with the demolition, as well as a passion for ecological destruction (see my patented coral reef destructinator) I am quite partial to destroying historic artefacts too. But no, we throw these opportunities away at the alter of preserving a hole in the ground. Madness!!

[Dunsignalling]

To me this sums up so much of what is wrong with our country. We have thousands of bricks there which could all be sold as genuine IK Brunel bricks to collectors, each one coming in a presentation box with a certificate of authenticity. We could charge people to go in and help with the demolition, as well as a passion for ecological destruction (see my patented coral reef destructinator) I am quite partial to destroying historic artefacts too. But no, we throw these opportunities away at the alter of preserving a hole in the ground. Madness!!

The needle on my irony detector is swinging about wildly......

[Enterprisingwestern]

Does Starcross need an underground car park?

Kills two winged avians with one solid aggregate.

 

Mike.

[rodent279]

To me this sums up so much of what is wrong with our country. We have thousands of bricks there which could all be sold as genuine IK Brunel bricks to collectors, each one coming in a presentation box with a certificate of authenticity. We could charge people to go in and help with the demolition, as well as a passion for ecological destruction (see my patented coral reef destructinator) I am quite partial to destroying historic artefacts too. But no, we throw these opportunities away at the alter of preserving a hole in the ground. Madness!!

Ha ha!

 

Reminds me of visiting Berlin a couple of years after the wall came down. In from of the Brandenburg Gate, there was a long row of people with bits of concrete & rubble spread in front of them. They were selling "genuine" bits of "Berlin Wall".

 

Yeah right.....

[Reorte]

Indeed. Many of  those whose achievements we now celebrate and whose works we attempt to preserve were guilty of acts we would now regard as incomprehensible historical, cultural and/or environmental vandalism on a staggering scale. Funny old world ain't it?.

What they got rid of is gone and so the damage they caused isn't visible to most of us (ignorance is bliss!), who can only see what they've left and they get judged on that.

[Gordon A]

As the article mentions "potentially unstable" I guess a lot depends on how unstable, and if safe what use could it be put to?

 

I think post 7 by Dunsignalling is a practical compromise.

 

Gordon A

[rab]

I think rats were part of Brunel’s problem. The leather flaps of the tube in which the piston ran were coated with tallow to make a seal. The rat population simply loved the stuff.

That was the thinking behind my post

[BR60103]

... but isn't there historical rarity value in something of Brunel's that didn't work?

[Dunsignalling]

... but isn't there historical rarity value in something of Brunel's that didn't work?

Not especially. The Atmospheric Railway wasn't unique in that respect.

 

Brunel was recognised as an engineering genius in multiple fields, and that reputation enabled him to attract financial backing for projects in a few where he wasn't, or where he was just pushing the envelope too far.

 

Nobody is brilliant at everything, an early example being his design and procurement of locomotives in the early years of the GWR. They were, almost without exception, dire until Gooch became involved.

 

John

Edited May 17, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[PatB]

Brunel's record suggests that he was much more a civil engineer than mechanical. He also appears to have been enormously bold and ambitious, which is great when you're right but can result in rather embarrassing results when you're not. I still maintain that the Atmospheric, although ultimately a failure, probably looked more sensible c1840 than it does now with the benefit of hindsight.

[jjb1970]

I think the principle of moving the source of power off the train was correct, but the means of doing so was deeply flawed. I think people do look on it a little unfairly as despite its failure it wasn't a silly idea and in a sense was an attempt to achieve the same ends as electrification.

[rodent279]

I think the principle of moving the source of power off the train was correct, but the means of doing so was deeply flawed. I think people do look on it a little unfairly as despite its failure it wasn't a silly idea and in a sense was an attempt to achieve the same ends as electrification.

I wonder what could be done today, with modern technology & materials? Could an atmospheric railway be a practical reality?

 

Not suggesting it as a real alternative means of propulsion, just "blue sky thinking", to coin an obnoxious phrase-could it be made to work?

[PatB]

I wonder what could be done today, with modern technology & materials? Could an atmospheric railway be a practical reality?

 

Not suggesting it as a real alternative means of propulsion, just "blue sky thinking", to coin an obnoxious phrase-could it be made to work?

 

Given the amazing properties available from modern polymer materials, yes, I think it could. However, you'd still have the problem of how to deal with pointwork and the limitation presented by having a maximum suction available of ~15 psi, thus limiting tractive effort for any practical size of vacuum tube. Given that you'd need to drive the vac pumps with something - realistically electric motors -  you might as well wire the line and drive the trains with electric motors rather than interposing an awkward to accommodate, limited and potentially complex and unreliable pneumatic system.

 

Of course, on a small scale, pneumatic tubes have been very successful for short distance load carrying in offices and shops.

[Edwin_m]

A modern day atmospheric railway might use compressed air, since there is then no maximum on the pressure difference that can be used for traction.  I saw a TV programme where someone in America had a model with a fully sealed tube and the piston pulling the train along using magnets.  However if you're prepared to build something different and incompatible with a lot of equipment distributed along the track then you might as well built a maglev. 

[tarifa]

A confused bit of reporting

First it is the underground water supply for the pumping engine, then it is a vacuum chamber!

 

Keith

Gleamed from the report

"It moved the trains by extracting air from pipes laid between the rails, using pumping stations along the track.

The pumping stations used water from the underground reservoir to create steam."

[Alister_G]

I wonder what could be done today, with modern technology & materials? Could an atmospheric railway be a practical reality?

 

Not suggesting it as a real alternative means of propulsion, just "blue sky thinking", to coin an obnoxious phrase-could it be made to work?

 

Is this not the premise which Elon Musk's Hyperloop concept is based on?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop

 

Al

[Dunsignalling]

Is this not the premise which Elon Musk's Hyperloop concept is based on?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop

 

Al

Sort of, but that involves placing the entire (windowless) pod and passengers within a (windowless) tube, which avoids the need to seal a moving gap.

 

Propulsion by vacuum alone wouldn't give the required speeds, though, so either linear induction motors or "trains" being blown rather than sucked along, I'd think.

 

Undoubtedly more practicable, and not too far removed from early space travel, minus the need for a suit, but definitely not one for the claustrophobic.

 

John

Edited May 17, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[62613]

I think the principle of moving the source of power off the train was correct, but the means of doing so was deeply flawed. I think people do look on it a little unfairly as despite its failure it wasn't a silly idea and in a sense was an attempt to achieve the same ends as electrification.

 

The time when the atmospheric was attempted was one of great experimentation; remember, the idea of moving large amounts of goods and passengers over long distances using locomotives was barely ten to fifteen years old, and it may have been that alternative methods were worth looking at. Weren't there other short-distance atmospheric railways in existence at the time?

[Edwin_m]

Sort of, but that involves placing the entire (windowless) pod and passengers within a (windowless) tube, which avoids the need to seal a moving gap.

 

Propulsion by vacuum alone wouldn't give the required speeds, though, so either linear induction motors or "trains" being blown rather than sucked along, I'd think.

 

Undoubtedly more practicable, and not too far removed from early space travel, minus the need for a suit, but definitely not one for the claustrophobic.

 

John

As I understand it Hyperloop is a Maglev in a vacuum tube.  Propulsion by air pressure ceases to be effective close to the speed of sound, and the amount of pumping capacity required for such a system would be phenomenal. 

[PatB]

A modern day atmospheric railway might use compressed air, since there is then no maximum on the pressure difference that can be used for traction.  I saw a TV programme where someone in America had a model with a fully sealed tube and the piston pulling the train along using magnets.  However if you're prepared to build something different and incompatible with a lot of equipment distributed along the track then you might as well built a maglev. 

 

Trouble with compressed air is that you then have to deal with an enormous and complex pressure system and still have to seal the slot (unless you use a pod in a totally enclosed tube), with all the associated issues of losses and safety.

[Wickham Green]

 

 

.......... not too far removed from early space travel, minus the need for a suit, but definitely not one for the claustrophobic.

 

John

Can't ever remember anyone wearing a suit in space - let alone a tie ..... disgraceful !

 

........... anyway, what's the point of sitting in a 'train' if you can't watch the scenery go by ? - it'd have to be damned fast to stop everyone dying of boredom ........................ silly me, I was forgetting it would have free WiFi so you could search out 'London to Brighton in Four Minutes' !

[scouser]

Lest some forget!

Dissing IKB is blasphemy and will be dealt with accordingly!!

Nobody expects the IKB Inquisition....

[rodent279]

Lest some forget!

Dissing IKB is blasphemy and will be dealt with accordingly!!

Nobody expects the IKB Inquisition....

I'd never diss him, but I do think he's overrated. Clever, left us some masterpieces, but I don't think he was a better engineer than others such as Stephenson, Gooch etc.

[rab]

Trouble with compressed air is that you then have to deal with an enormous and complex pressure system and still have to seal the slot (unless you use a pod in a totally enclosed tube), with all the associated issues of losses and safety.

Added to this, compressed air is very inefficient.

Although it was a long time ago, I still remember

being surprised when, at college, we did a test

using an air compressor and an air motor to measure

the efficiency of the system. If I remember right,

the system came out ad less than 10 per cent efficient.

A great deal of the energy put into the system

ends up as heat.

[Ramblin Rich]

The time when the atmospheric was attempted was one of great experimentation; remember, the idea of moving large amounts of goods and passengers over long distances using locomotives was barely ten to fifteen years old, and it may have been that alternative methods were worth looking at. Weren't there other short-distance atmospheric railways in existence at the time?

Yes, there were 3 other lines with atmospheric systems: The London & Croyden, Dublin & Kingstown and a short part of the Paris a St Germain line. I wasn't aware of the French system until I got a book of the contemporary watercolour images of the South Devon atmospheric system ("Brunel's Atmospheric Railway" edited by Paul Garnsworthy), with  short history of the atmospheric systems  included. The Paris installation was a short, steep section at the end of the line up to St Germain chateau and woodlands and actually ran fairly successfully for 13 years, outlasting the other systems by a considerable amount.

Haven't managed to get to Starcross for a look yet....