Early Diesel/DMU classes in North Norfolk

[RateTheFreight]

Rather than go off topic in my other post about the late 50’s/60’s timetable for Wells Next The Sea and surrounding area; what were the classes of early diesel locos and DMUs that would have been found in North Norfolk in the late 50’s/60’s?

 

I’m trying to work out what non steam stock would have been seen on routes such as Kings Lynn - Hunstanton, Heacham - Wells, Wells - Norwich etc. In turn I’m then trying to work out what I can get RTR in O gauge that I could use on my proposed layout.

 

Given Heljan 31’s seem to be rarer than hens teeth now I’m hoping there were some other classes I can use.

 

As a side, I’d also be keen to know of any single car DMUs that worked these routes.

 

Thanks again.

 

Greg

[jonny777]

I believe the early series (E79xxx) Metro-Cammell and Derby units were the regular ones, although others were drafted in later and Cravens units could appear on excursions. 

 

The Brush 2s were common, mainly because they were in service early. EE Type 3s came later but that was in the mid-60s. March had an allocation of Sulzer Type 2s (24s) for a time, but whether any made it to North Norfolk I can't say. 

 

There is a photo of a BTH Type 1 (class 15) at Hunstanton here 

 

https://goo.gl/images/MwR6u8

Edited June 2, 2018 by jonny777

[russ p]

Apparently the of class40 made it to Melton but would doubt they got to wells .

The freight would have been Brush type 2s and BTHs

[roythebus]

I remember getting an East Anglia rail rover in 1967 and went to Hunstanton, Yarmouth, Lowestoft (both termini), both routes to London, Liverpool St and Kings Cross, and most of the cross-country bits. I only recall Met Cam DMUs and may be a Derby lightweight unit going to somewhere the train had to reverse to continue its journey. Otherwise Brush type 2 and EE type 3s, but then didn't the EE type 4s work some of the expresses? I think by then the BTH and other early diesels had gone.

 

AFAIK there were few single unit diesels, only the experimental 4 wheel railbuses and they were restricted as to where they were used.

[PaulG]

Greg

 

Have you looked at this link?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/130986-modelling-the-railways-of-east-anglia-in-4mm-scale/

 

Paul

[russ p]

BTHs were around until the end of the 60s

[RateTheFreight]

Excuse my ignorance but what’s BtH an an acronym for?

 

Thanks to all who’ve responded!

 

Greg

[Flying Pig]

Excuse my ignorance but what’s BtH an an acronym for?

British Thomson-Houston, the main contractor for the Class 15

[mike hughes]

I’ll be doing the Derby lightweight as RTR and kit, hopefully fully ready this year

 

Michael

[russ p]

I'm hoping Bachmann do a four light blue 101 to turn into a 79xxx

[Chris Turnbull]

Brush type 2s (later class 30 and 31) were by far the most common locomotive type.  There were also a handful of BR type 2s (later class 24) and BTH type 1s (later class 15) as well as some NBL type 2s (later class 21) although the latter class soon disappeared as they were not very successful.  Mainline services were in the hands of EE type 4s (later class 40).  From 1961 EE type 3s became quite common (later class 37).  As far as DMUs are concerned there were three main types, Cravens units (blue square), E512xx/E564xx pairings, Derby units (yellow diamond), E790xx/E7925x or E796xx pairings and Metropolitan Cammell units (yellow diamond), E790xx/E792xx pairings. 

 

Examples from my spotting books are E51276 / E56484 and E51274 / E56432 at Bury St Edmunds on 10th April 1964.

 

Here's Derby Lightweight / Metropolitan Cammell combo entering Bury St Edmunds on 13th January 1968:

 

  

 

Chris Turnbull

[Chris Turnbull]

AFAIK there were few single unit diesels, only the experimental 4 wheel railbuses and they were restricted as to where they were used.

 

The single unit railbuses were the five Waggon und Maschinenbau units E79960 to E79964.  By 1965 they were stored at Cambridge where I saw all five on 12th April.  For further details see:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waggon-_und_Maschinenbau_GmbH_Donauw%C3%B6rth_railbus

 

I would think it is very unlikely that any member of this class ever made it to Wells.

 

Chris Turnbull   

[jonny777]

Brush type 2s (later class 30 and 31) were by far the most common locomotive type.  There were also a handful of BR type 2s (later class 24) and BTH type 1s (later class 15) as well as some NBL type 2s (later class 21) although the latter class soon disappeared as they were not very successful.  Mainline services were in the hands of EE type 4s (later class 40).  From 1961 EE type 3s became quite common (later class 37).  As far as DMUs are concerned there were three main types, Cravens units (blue square), E512xx/E564xx pairings, Derby units (yellow diamond), E790xx/E7925x or E796xx pairings and Metropolitan Cammell units (yellow diamond), E790xx/E792xx pairings. 

 

Examples from my spotting books are E51276 / E56484 and E51274 / E56432 at Bury St Edmunds on 10th April 1964.

 

Here's Derby Lightweight / Metropolitan Cammell combo entering Bury St Edmunds on 13th January 1968:

 

680113 Bury St Edmunds DMU 1.17.jpg  

 

Chris Turnbull

 

 

 

Are you sure that you have read the thread title correctly?

 

Bury St E is hardly North Norfolk. 

[Chris Turnbull]

Are you sure that you have read the thread title correctly?

 

Bury St E is hardly North Norfolk. 

 

Greg is asking for examples of locos and DMUs that would have worked into Wells.  I have provided that information and attached a photograph of two of the types of DMUs as an illustration.  These DMUs worked all over East Anglia so as I don't have any photos of Wells I have included what I do have.

 

Chris Turnbull

[Clive Mortimore]

Can I add the Wickham DMUs, they worked most of East Anglia.

 

There were also a few blue square Met-Cams that worked the March and Kings Lynn area for a short while in the 60s, one or more appear on a DVD about branch lines in East Anglia I borrowed off a mate. (I did give it back)

[chrisf]

Sorry to be late to the party.

 

I have a copy of the diagrams for summer 1959 which show that in the course of a day five different sets worked into and out of Wells next the Sea.  All were the early type of MetCamm based at Norwich.  The Cravens were based at Cambridge and were not booked to visit Wells.  I am not sure off the top of my head when Wells closed but the Derby lightweights and early MetCamms lasted at Norwich until 1967-68 and 1968-69 respectively.

 

Chris

[stewartingram]

DMUs in East Anglia worked cyclic diagrams from their home depot, and really, the only relevant home depots were Cambridge and Norwich. They would be away from home for 3-4 days, and covered most of the area. There were 2 main types, classified by their coupling codes - yellow diamond, and blue square, which could never couple together with the opposite code. Yellow diamond was the earlier introduction, and covered the Derby Lightweight 2-car sets (790xx/796xx), and the Met-Camm 2-car sets (790xx/792xx). The latter are NOT 101 but have external similarities. Blue square would be Cravens 105 (512xx/564xx) and Wickham 109 (504xx/561xx, only 5 sets. Here I am referring to the earlier dmus which were delivered new. It has to be remembered though that after only a few years, things started to change; looking back, quicker than one realised! Line closures country wide, mainly by Beeching, made a lot of units surplus, and the yellow diamonds started to be withdrawn roughly when rail blue came in, though many did get repainted. Their replacements (though some local lines also closed) were drafted in from elsewhere. Class 100/103/105, and later 101, appeared. There were detail differences between many of them too. And of course some of the 109 were withdrawn  early and sold back to Wickham for export.

There were also interlopers, mainly on the Oxford-Cambridge and Leicester/Birmingham-Norwich or Cambridge routes, but these are a different story.

The DRB were all allocated to Cambridge, again on specific cyclic diagrams but probably the furthest north they got was Mildenhall.

 

I have done a passable conversion of a Met-Camm from a Lima 101, and obtained a 3D printed 109, as well as Bachmann 105 & Derby LtWt units, and a couple of railbuses from Silver Fox and Heljan.

 

Stewart

Edited June 5, 2018 by stewartingram

[Steamport Southport]

I was on the Wickham 109 the other day at Llangollen.

 

 

As well as classes 104, 108, 110 and 127. 

 

 

 

Jason

[EddieK]

DMUs in East Anglia worked cyclic diagrams from their home depot, and really, the only relevant home depots were Cambridge and Norwich. They would be away from home for 3-4 days, and covered most of the area. There were 2 main types, classified by their coupling codes - yellow diamond, and blue square, which could never couple together with the opposite code. Yellow diamond was the earlier introduction, and covered the Derby Lightweight 2-car sets (790xx/796xx), and the Met-Camm 2-car sets (790xx/792xx). The latter are NOT 101 but have external similarities. Blue square would be Cravens 105 (512xx/564xx) and Wickham 109 (504xx/561xx, only 5 sets. Here I am referring to the earlier dmus which were delivered new. It has to be remembered though that after only a few years, things started to change; looking back, quicker than one realised! Line closures country wide, mainly by Beeching, made a lot of units surplus, and the yellow diamonds started to be withdrawn roughly when rail blue came in, though many did get repainted. Their replacements (though some local lines also closed) were drafted in from elsewhere. Class 100/103/105, and later 101, appeared. There were detail differences between many of them too. And of course some of the 109 were withdrawn  early and sold back to Wickham for export.

There were also interlopers, mainly on the Oxford-Cambridge and Leicester/Birmingham-Norwich or Cambridge routes, but these are a different story.

The DRB were all allocated to Cambridge, again on specific cyclic diagrams but probably the furthest north they got was Mildenhall.

 

I have done a passable conversion of a Met-Camm from a Lima 101, and obtained a 3D printed 109, as well as Bachmann 105 & Derby LtWt units, and a couple of railbuses from Silver Fox and Heljan.

 

Stewart

 

Are you sure about Park Royal DMUs (later Class 103) working in East Anglia??

 

[PaulG]

I've not seen any reference to Class 103 DMUs working in East Anglia and record of such working would be of interest and I'll add to my East Anglia modelling document, referred to above.

Paul

[chrisf]

I wonder if 103 is a typo for 108?   I looked into the replacement of yellow diamond sets in East Anglia a few months ago.  The majority of the sets drafted in during 1968 were 100s from Scotland and South Gosforth but there were some 101s, 105s and 108s.  The 103s largely stayed on the London Midland, gravitating to the Cambrian, though a few ended up on the Western where they were passed around like unwanted parcels.

 

Chris

[Clive Mortimore]

Class 108s did reach Cambridge in the 1960s on the ex LNWR line but no further into the Anglian heartland.

[wagonman]

The Wells branch closed in October 1964 and from the photos I have seen was worked by an almost exclusive diet of MetCam DMUs and Brush Type 2s with just the occasional visit from a Derby Lightweight or a BTH Type 1.

 

Better start scouring the hen run for discarded teeth...

[stewartingram]

Class 103, converted into an inspection saloon definitely did; but I think late on (blue era probably?) at least one ran in passenger service. Not typical therefore.

We also had 125 sets (Lea Valley units) as rare visitors to Cambridge, there was a FO working at least one summer LST-CBG (I travelled on it for the experience). I believe these also did excursion trips to Norfolk on occasion.

 

Stewart

[russ p]

I mentioned the BR DMU training film a lot of that was on the wells branch using a 114, I believe this was specially brought to Norwich for filming