New Wales and Borders Franchise

[Metr0Land]

Nothing (additional) west of Swansea? 

[Wild Boar Fell]

Just a thought if all the current Arriva Mk3 LHCS services go over to Mk4s, could this mean that Warrington Bank Quay would possibly be the only place where two different operators of Mk4s would call (or even meet)? The other being the proposed GNWR London - Blackpool mini 225 services.

[phil-b259]

I would have thought procuring an add-on bi or battery-bi mode order for the new Merseyrail fleet would have allowed through services from Wrexham to Liverpool and from North Wales to Liverpool via a reversal at Chester, with consistent operating characteristics, without the entirely predictable cries of "the Hwntw getting all the money and North Wales getting London cast offs" that are already being made in some commentaries on line. It would also help re-inforce the city-region concept where the WG want to bring the benefits of the so called Northern Powerhouse to North Wales.

 

Possibly too much like joined up thinking for the Cardiff Bay Chianti set.

 

Please remember that responsibility for letting the Merseyrail franchise was devolved to Merseytravel, while the Wales franchise was devolved to the welsh Assembly. There is zero commonality between the organisations letting the franchises so it is far more difficult to swap routes between them - don't forget that matters such as the subsidy each will get and where it comes from will differ significantly because of said devolution.

 

In England by contrast the DfT remains the franchising authority for ALL franchises (except London & Merseyside) and so it is much easier to move things round as they can be dealt with internally.

[LBRJ]

It all appears to be moves in the right direction, but I noted there seems to be some forgetful thinking about the &B "bit" of the franchise that constitutes their main line!

Though I suppose that Transport for Wales that mainly goes through England could be a bit of a mouthful

[DavidB-AU]

An interesting summary of the fleet.

 

[DavidB-AU]

Makes you wonder why the welsh Assembly doesn't pick a name and livery that will be constant whoever the operator is, like ScotRail. Call it CymRail?

 

Cheers

David

[wombatofludham]

Please remember that responsibility for letting the Merseyrail franchise was devolved to Merseytravel, while the Wales franchise was devolved to the welsh Assembly. There is zero commonality between the organisations letting the franchises so it is far more difficult to swap routes between them - don't forget that matters such as the subsidy each will get and where it comes from will differ significantly because of said devolution.

 

In England by contrast the DfT remains the franchising authority for ALL franchises (except London & Merseyside) and so it is much easier to move things round as they can be dealt with internally.

 

I'm well aware of the devolved rail package for Merseyside.  That should have made the idea of through running easier given the shorter political management structure avoids London rather than harder.  The Liverpool Metro Mayor and the Merseyside Growth fund sponsored the Halton Curve but it's the Welsh franchise that will be running at least some of the services on the route in the new contract so clearly the much shorter decision making processes worked there.

 

​If the Liverpool Mayor and the Welsh Assembly both want to see the Chester-North Wales corridor working closer together, which they do politically at any rate, ways would have been found to work together.  It seems an opportunity missed.

[wombatofludham]

Makes you wonder why the welsh Assembly doesn't pick a name and livery that will be constant whoever the operator is, like ScotRail. Call it CymRail?

 

Cheers

David

 

Uugh, CymRail is the worst kind of Wenglish!  I suspect the new Big T branding will eventually migrate onto the TrawsCymru buses as well as rail and trams as they are very much seen as part of the strategic public transport provision.  

 

I must admit I prefer the new colours to Arriva's doom blue which quickly looked dowdy and dull.  Not too keen on the T bag logo if that is what is finally applied, but the livery has a slightly retro 80s look to it which I like.

[Edwin_m]

It’s a shame the 3rd rail won’t reach shotton (or even Deeside industrial estate) any time soon

 

I hope the 230s have good power and traction as I wouldn’t fancy one on shotton bank during leaf fall if they did appear on the line

 

Interesting to see a llandudno to Liverpool service, no doubt using the Halton chord when it opens proper

 

Not sure about the station at bow st, will it be a park and ride for Aberystwyth or something but from what I’ve seen there appears to be sufficient parking in the town, wonder if the Cambrian will have dedicated units with ERTMS fitted purely for that line and out to Birmingham services

The 230 has all axles motored on the motored car, so I think it would be 50% motored for a 2-car and two-thirds for a 3-car.  Pacers and Sprinters are 50% so the 3-car ought to be more sure-footed in theory at least.  Not sure if they have sanders though. 

 

All new units will have the wiring and cabinets fitted so ERTMS can be added without the sort of difficulties experienced with the 158s, so it should be relatively straightforward to fit a sub-fleet or even the entire fleet of the CAF units.  This is also "in theory" though...

[TangerineWizards]

It’s a shame the 3rd rail won’t reach shotton (or even Deeside industrial estate) any time soon

 

I hope the 230s have good power and traction as I wouldn’t fancy one on shotton bank during leaf fall if they did appear on the line

 

Interesting to see a llandudno to Liverpool service, no doubt using the Halton chord when it opens proper

 

Not sure about the station at bow st, will it be a park and ride for Aberystwyth or something but from what I’ve seen there appears to be sufficient parking in the town, wonder if the Cambrian will have dedicated units with ERTMS fitted purely for that line and out to Birmingham services

 

In fairness to Network Rail, they have cut back a lot of vegetation on the route in the past few months which has improved performance significantly. 

 

Reading a bit more detail suggests the 2tph on Wrexham-Bidston will be 1 stopper and 1 semi-fast which I think will mean they will only need three units to operate the line. 

 

It'll be interesting to see which stations get a stop and which get missed.

Edited June 6, 2018 by TangerineWizards

[Joseph_Pestell]

If they had bi-mode 230s, would it be possible to run onwards from Bidston into Liverpool? Or at least Birkenhead? It would make a much more attractive offer.

[Zomboid]

You'd have thought so, although I doubt it would be necessary to have electric power to run to Birkenhead North (or Park, though there's no turnback there). Pathing would probably be the main issue.

If they had bi mode versions of the new Merseyrail trains it would seem more likely, as performance would match and therefore they'd be easier to fit in (though probably still not actually easy).

[John_Hughes]

There are promises of 1tph on the coast line, with some 'express' services - presumably that means limited stop, though I seem to remember that even the old Cambrian Coast Express stopped on request almost everywhere once it was north of Aberhelig Halt.

 

The question now becomes one of capacity, especially with so many passing loops taken out of service over the last half century or so.

 

And does anyone have any more detail about the Cardiff on-street running? I can see the main road from Gabalfa into the City Centre being turned into straightforward chaos while work goes on - not that the trams aren't desperately needed, and I for one will be delighted to see them.

[Coryton]

And does anyone have any more detail about the Cardiff on-street running? I can see the main road from Gabalfa into the City Centre being turned into straightforward chaos while work goes on - not that the trams aren't desperately needed, and I for one will be delighted to see them.

 

Perhaps disappointingly, street-running seems to be a very short section of track in the bay. 

 

After all the speculation about light rail conversion in the Valleys, the plan seems to be for 25 kV electrification and heavy rail operation to continue.

 

However, the lines through Pontypridd will get Stadler "tram-trains", with some services running through to the street running in the bay (on battery power).

 

The idea seems to be to prove that they really work on street running so that at a later date light rail extensions can be considered - I've seen suggestions that this means further up the Valleys, not in Cardiff itself.

 

Meanwhile the Rhymni line, Penarth, Barry and the Vale of Glamorgan get Stadler FLIRT tri-modes (25 kV, battery and diesel) and - unlike the routes through Pontypridd - get to have toilets on their trains.

 

The City line is served by two of the 12 trains an hour between Pontypridd and Cardiff being sent round that way - Coryton trains will run through to Penarth rather than back north to Radyr via the City line.

 

It looks as if trains through Pontypridd will only run to Cardiff and not further south, with many not even making it to Central (going instead to the bay).

 

The termini in the Valleys get 4 trains per hour as promised. Coryton gets to keep its 2 trains per hour albeit with increased journey times once the new station at Crwys Road opens. (Possibly going up to 4 tph if the new Velindre Hospital goes ahead - though the alternative is almost certainly housing in the same place and I'd argue that if that happens then a 4 tph train service into Cardiff might do something to alleviate the congestion that will result).

 

Electrification will be "Intermittent" i.e. missing out all the difficult bits, including Caerphilly tunnel, leaving the trains to run on battery.

 

Overall it seems like a lot less than some people were expecting, and what is being done is on very long (but perhaps realistic) timescales. Overcrowding in the Valley looks set to continue for a few years yet.

 

The Pacers are supposed to go by the end of 2019.

 

More information here:

 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/article14740158.ece/BINARY/The%20KeolisAmey%20timetable%20for%20the%20plans%20to%20change%20the%20Wales%20and%20Borders%20network

 

https://gov.wales/docs/cabinetstatements/2018/180604serviceimprovementsen.pdf

 

https://gov.wales/about/cabinet/cabinetstatements/2018/railservicesupdate/?lang=en

 

And a huge amount of detail here:

 

http://www.keolisamey.cymru/media/1046/ams-wb-overview-presentation.pdf

[Coryton]

There are promises of 1tph on the coast line, with some 'express' services - presumably that means limited stop, though I seem to remember that even the old Cambrian Coast Express stopped on request almost everywhere once it was north of Aberhelig Halt.

 

 

Curiously, the document here: https://gov.wales/docs/cabinetstatements/2018/180604serviceimprovementsen.pdf

mentions 1 tph on the Cambrian Coast between Tywyn and Pwhelli on summer Saturdays, but doesn't suggest any other improvements. A better service on Sundays than weekdays would seem a bit odd.

[Mark_A]

'Y Gerallt Gymro' ie 'Gerald of Wales' - does anyone know the date of its last run?

 

Mark

[Phatbob]

If they had bi-mode 230s, would it be possible to run onwards from Bidston into Liverpool? Or at least Birkenhead? It would make a much more attractive offer.

Diesels carrying fuel are not permitted through the single track tunnels under liverpool AFAIK.  Network Rail do run their diesel powered maintenance trains from Birkenhead as far as James Street station, but no further I understand.  Theoretically possible therefore that a Wrexham train could run as far as James Street, then turn-back.  But not go around the loop under Lime Street and back out that way.

[John_Hughes]

Perhaps disappointingly, street-running seems to be a very short section of track in the bay. 

 

After all the speculation about light rail conversion in the Valleys, the plan seems to be for 25 kV electrification and heavy rail operation to continue.

 

However, the lines through Pontypridd will get Stadler "tram-trains", with some services running through to the street running in the bay (on battery power).

 

The idea seems to be to prove that they really work on street running so that at a later date light rail extensions can be considered - I've seen suggestions that this means further up the Valleys, not in Cardiff itself.

 

Meanwhile the Rhymni line, Penarth, Barry and the Vale of Glamorgan get Stadler FLIRT tri-modes (25 kV, battery and diesel) and - unlike the routes through Pontypridd - get to have toilets on their trains.

 

The City line is served by two of the 12 trains an hour between Pontypridd and Cardiff being sent round that way - Coryton trains will run through to Penarth rather than back north to Radyr via the City line.

 

It looks as if trains through Pontypridd will only run to Cardiff and not further south, with many not even making it to Central (going instead to the bay).

 

The termini in the Valleys get 4 trains per hour as promised. Coryton gets to keep its 2 trains per hour albeit with increased journey times once the new station at Crwys Road opens. (Possibly going up to 4 tph if the new Velindre Hospital goes ahead - though the alternative is almost certainly housing in the same place and I'd argue that if that happens then a 4 tph train service into Cardiff might do something to alleviate the congestion that will result).

 

Electrification will be "Intermittent" i.e. missing out all the difficult bits, including Caerphilly tunnel, leaving the trains to run on battery.

 

Overall it seems like a lot less than some people were expecting, and what is being done is on very long (but perhaps realistic) timescales. Overcrowding in the Valley looks set to continue for a few years yet.

 

The Pacers are supposed to go by the end of 2019.

 

More information here:

 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/article14740158.ece/BINARY/The%20KeolisAmey%20timetable%20for%20the%20plans%20to%20change%20the%20Wales%20and%20Borders%20network

 

https://gov.wales/docs/cabinetstatements/2018/180604serviceimprovementsen.pdf

 

https://gov.wales/about/cabinet/cabinetstatements/2018/railservicesupdate/?lang=en

 

And a huge amount of detail here:

 

http://www.keolisamey.cymru/media/1046/ams-wb-overview-presentation.pdf

 

That's very helpful, many thanks.

 

But how will there be a station at Gabalfa, which I understood to be in the plans?

[br2975]

But how will there be a station at Gabalfa, which I understood to be in the plans?

 

Preferred sites are either the 'up' Llandaff/Radyr or 'down' Cardiff side(s) of the Western Avenue over bridge.

.

The station will actually be in the Mynachdy area, but the parish, so to speak, is Gabalfa.

.

Brian R 

[Wild Boar Fell]

Reported elsewhere, the new build fleet will be as follows;

 

DMU CAF Civity (2-Car) x 51    

DMU CAF Civity (3-Car) x 26   (would hazard a guess these are really DEMUs)

 

BMU Stadler Flirt (4-Car) x 11

TMU Stadler Flirt (3-Car) x 7

TMU Stadler Flirt (4-Car) x 17

 

Tram/Tram-Train Stadler Citylink (3-Car) x 36

 

BMU = Bi-Mode Multiple Unit

TMU = Tri-Mode Multiple Unit

 

Edit to add, whilst not new build they will also be getting 5 x Class 230 'Dentists'

Edited June 6, 2018 by Wild Boar Fell

['CHARD]

Reported elsewhere, the new build fleet will be as follows;

 

DMU CAF Civity (2-Car) x 51    

DMU CAF Civity (3-Car) x 26   (would hazard a guess these are really DEMUs)

 

BMU Stadler Flirt (4-Car) x 11

TMU Stadler Flirt (3-Car) x 7

TMU Stadler Flirt (4-Car) x 17

 

Tram/Tram-Train Stadler Citylink (3-Car) x 36

 

BMU = Bi-Mode Multiple Unit

TMU = Tri-Mode Multiple Unit

 

Edit to add, whilst not new build they will also be getting 5 x Class 230 'Dentists'

 

Thanks for this, WBF. I've been meaning to post that data but work is getting in the way 

[Coryton]

Reported elsewhere, the new build fleet will be as follows;

 

DMU CAF Civity (2-Car) x 51    

DMU CAF Civity (3-Car) x 26   (would hazard a guess these are really DEMUs)

 

BMU Stadler Flirt (4-Car) x 11

TMU Stadler Flirt (3-Car) x 7

TMU Stadler Flirt (4-Car) x 17

 

Tram/Tram-Train Stadler Citylink (3-Car) x 36

 

BMU = Bi-Mode Multiple Unit

TMU = Tri-Mode Multiple Unit

 

Edit to add, whilst not new build they will also be getting 5 x Class 230 'Dentists'

 

And if you want some pretty pictures to go with the numbers, see page 15 of http://www.keolisamey.cymru/media/1046/ams-wb-overview-presentation.pdf

 

Some novel wheel arrangements, for the UK at any rate.

 

If the pictures are to scale, then a 3 car "metro vehicle" is barely longer than two regular (i.e. not the little engine bit) coaches of the FLIRTs.

 

If anything the pitcture of the metro vehicle looks to be a slightly larger scale, but it might be an optical illusion and I can't be bothered to measure the heights (which may of course not be the same anyway).

[John_Hughes]

Preferred sites are either the 'up' Llandaff/Radyr or 'down' Cardiff side(s) of the Western Avenue over bridge.

.

The station will actually be in the Mynachdy area, but the parish, so to speak, is Gabalfa.

.

Brian R 

 

Got it, thanks - that does make sense.

[Wild Boar Fell]

Coryton, cheers for the full document.

 

RE lengths, the full unit lengths are quoted as;

 

Citylink - 40m

Flirt (3-Car) - 65m

Flirt (4-Car) - 80m

 

HTH

[Joseph_Pestell]

An interesting summary of the fleet.

 

Wales-franchise-graph-LARGE.jpg

 

Interesting to see that they expect the 230 to last for many years yet. Shades of the IoW.

 

Link to Keolis presentation not working for me.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell