New layout limited space (Signalling Help Required)

[chuffinghell]

The need to clear the fold-up board would, for me, be the strongest argument in favour of cassettes rather than a fan of sidings for the FY.  Maybe a couple of sidings for the longest rakes of stock, which can end a session in the station, and then 3 foot-ish cassettes which are reasonably easily handled, and locolifts, to take everything else.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

Thanks for your input

 

Its clear that a fold-up fiddle yard is old fashioned and regarded as a complete 'no no' so its back to the drawing board on that one

 

My intentions were (and still are) to put all my stock back in the display cabinet when not in use to keep them out of harms way, so I could always remove the glass from the cabinet leaving it open allowing me to put full cassettes in it (although possibly wouldn't look very attractive)

 

Could anyone point me in the direction of photos of a cassette type FY please

 

Chris

[chuffinghell]

I would lengthen the baseboard right to the door, I did this with my spare bedroom railway for the loco depot headshunt and it worked well.   That would allow a longer more flowing platform road and let the platform move away from the Signal Box.

 

Apologies for being thick but may I ask the advantage of having the addition length of track and longer platform please

 

Many thanks

 

Chris

[Chimer]

This is the thread I've saved in my favourites for future reference …..

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79232-cassette-construction/

 

Hope it helps.  But I wouldn't dream of saying a FY is a 'no no' - it's just looks to me to be as if cassettes are the best way of dealing with your particular situation.

 

Chris

 

Edited to say what I meant to say, instead of the opposite …..

Edited July 13, 2018 by Chimer

[chuffinghell]

This is how I imagined passenger services would operate

 

1) Passenger train arrives at the station

2) Loco uncouples and travels forwards

3 & 4) Loco reverses along the loop

5) Loco couples to carriages and back out

Edited July 13, 2018 by chuffinghell

[chuffinghell]

And this is how I thought goods would be operated

 

1) Good train arrives with incoming wagons (in red)

2,3 & 4) Reverses goods into goods yard

5) Loco uncouples and travels forwards

6) Shunter moves out

7) Loco goes for a drink and a rest

8) Shunter collects outbound wagons (in blue)

9 & 10) Shunter positions itself

11) Loco all rested and thirst quenched reverses out

12) Loco couples up to outbound wagons

13 & 14) Loco head out with outbound wagons

Edited July 13, 2018 by chuffinghell

[jon_1066]

It's unlikely that this sort of station would have a dedicated shunter.  Being the end of a branch line the incoming pick up goods would probably just shunt the shed, reassemble it's goods train then run around and leave with it.  To add a bit of excitement a passenger train could combine with the presence of the goods.  You might also have a milk train or something similar.  There may also be other goods trains that would use the run around.  ie they would pick up full and drop off empties off scene then come to the end of the line to run around before leaving.

 

Would a small turntable fit where the shunter's shed is currently located?  If you pushed the tunnel mouth back it might?  If so that would give another operation for incoming trains.  It would also potentially give a reason for light engine moves - to make use of the turntable for some down the line activity.

[chuffinghell]

I didn’t realise branchlines wouldn’t have a dedicated shunter but the drop off and pick up sounds like something I could work with quite easily

 

There isn’t room for a turntable unfortunately, it’s one of the reasons none of my locos have tenders

[The Johnster]

Yes, the train loco does everything; there are photos of the branch auto train shunting goods vehicles at Wallingford.  

 

There are branches and branches, and key to the traffic is how they were signalled.  This might be a simple 'one engine in steam' arrangement, but a busier service might require a full block token so that another train can enter the section from the junction end; of course, movements at the terminus must not block the running line on which the other train is approaching.  This is a whole complex subject that I am not going to go into here; there are more qualified people than me to advise you about it.  To be very basic, a token or staff carried by the driver of the train occupying the section taken from a machine interlocked to prevent another being taken out until it is returned to the original or an associated one; this ensures that only one train can occupy the section at a time, collisions being thus being prevented.

 

I would suggest as a generalisation that shunting on the main running line is more likely on a branch operated under 'one engine in steam' regulations, and full block would be more likely to have a shunting spur on which operations could take place without blocking the section, the loco being 'locked in' the yard or sidings and under the control of handsignals from staff on the ground.

[chuffinghell]

I’ve definitely bitten off more than I can chew

 

I seem to recall someone suggesting I should build model aircraft instead.....

 

I’m beginning to think he was right

[Chimer]

No you haven't.  And don't model aircraft crash very expensively?  Worse than upsetting someone on here by not being absolutely prototypical, I would have thought.  If you want a shunter, have a shunter - it's your train set!

[RJS1977]

Incidentally, you can get away with running tender engines on branch lines without a turntable. Classes like the LMS 4F, and the GWR Dean and Collett goods classes could often be seen running tender first on minor lines like the Blodwell and Dinas Mawddy branches. Some of the 4Fs had tender cabs for running backwards (I've just seen a photo of a Cambrian Sharp Stewart with a cab spectacle plate as well).

 

Even Bulleid Pacifics ran backwards on some portions of the Atlantic Coast Express!

Edited July 17, 2018 by RJS1977

[Zomboid]

Even Bulleid Pacifics ran backwards on some portions of the Cambrian Coast Express!

Eh? Atlantic, I assume you mean? There's a terrific picture here somewhere of a Bulleid running tender first on a 1 coach train, but then the withered arm was like nothing much else...

[chuffinghell]

......And don't model aircraft crash very expensively?

Airfix one’s don’t

[chuffinghell]

Incidentally, you can get away with running tender engines on branch lines without a turntable. Classes like the LMS 4F, and the GWR Dean and Collett goods classes could often be seen running tender first on minor lines like the Blodwell and Dinas Mawddy branches. Some of the 4Fs had tender cabs for running backwards (I've just seen a photo of a Cambrian Sharp Stewart with a cab spectacle plate as well).

 

Even Bulleid Pacifics ran backwards on some portions of the Cambrian Coast Express!

I considered a Bachmann Collet Goods after the hassle I had with the Oxford Rail Dean Goods

[south_tyne]

. If you want a shunter, have a shunter - it's your train set!

Completely agree with that! Rule one applies and if you look hard enough you can almost always find a prototype to justify your ideas.

[bike2steam]

Eh? Atlantic, I assume you mean? There's a terrific picture here somewhere of a Bulleid running tender first on a 1 coach train, but then the withered arm was like nothing much else...

 

A regular return working for the down ACE loco from Padstow. Such was the Bulleid original remit for the light pacifics to be able to cover all types of work on as much of the system as possible.  

[RJS1977]

Eh? Atlantic, I assume you mean? There's a terrific picture here somewhere of a Bulleid running tender first on a 1 coach train, but then the withered arm was like nothing much else...

 

Yes, sorry, brain fade!

[NCB]

Hi. Think you have a sensible workable plan there. Couple of suggestions.

 

1) The space for the station platform is pretty cramped. I think you may be able to bring the whole station forwards a bit, which would give you room to put a bay road on the other side of the platform. Think this would look better, and also increase operating potential, giving you somewhere to stick a passenger train while leaving the loop free for goods operations.

 

2) I'm not a fan of track in tunnels; difficult to get at for maintenance and other purposes. And I prefer seeing trains rather than hiding them away. I'd suggest seeing if there's away of keeping the approach track in the open.

 

Re storage yard, you're going to have some setting up to do whether you use a fiddle yard or cassettes, so I'd go with whatever you feel will work best.

[RJS1977]

Looking at your room plan again, it looks to me as if the U-bend is built into an inglenook (the alcove to one side of a fireplace) - am I right?

 

In which case I'm guessing there's another one on the other side of the fireplace - what's in that? 

 

I know you mentioned that the room is used by other members of the family but if you can get the layout high enough to put a fiddle yard above whatever's in that inglenook you could do away with the drop-down fiddle yard and take up less usable space in the room at the same time.

 

Even if the space in the inglenook's taken up by a TV, if you motorise the points in the fiddle yard you can get quite a long operating sequence in before you need to start reforming trains (i.e. when they're all facing the wrong way). Either end the session at that point and reform the trains when nobody's watching TV, or do it when the adverts are on!

[Thunderforge]

Hi Chuffinghell, you can still run your goods like that with one engine, you’ll just have to make use of the run-around loop before you set off.

Ie; goods train comes in, and is shoved into the goods yard by the loco. Loco goes for a tea and biscuits at the facilities, then pulls the outgoing goods train onto the loop, uncouples, runs around using the platform track, couples to the front and off you go.

Of course there is also the extra shunting to do to get a brakevan on the right end (maybe use the smallest goods siding as a designated place to keep them when not in use?)

Finally there’s all the faff of clearing it all out of the way if a passenger train arrives, because of course, we can’t keep the passengers waiting!

 

I think this layout is great, and to be honest you can come up with an excuse to have a station pilot, perhaps there’s a really steep hill just offstage which requires a banker? Possibly a local quarry owns it’s own loco and has some agreement which allows it shed space at the station in return for occasional use when needed?

[The Johnster]

A local quarry or similar privately owned loco would be very unlikely to be allowed to do any work on the 'big' railway, though the local shed might have done some work on it from time to time.  There were such arrangements, particularly involving the NCB and their predecessors in the north east of England, but the locos had to be certified to run on main line company or BR metals and their drivers had to be passed out on rules and regulations and sign the appropriate route knowledge cards.  I cannot think of any example where a quarry loco would have been used in this way. 

 

Rule 1 applies of course, it's your railway, but this seems to be a common mistake made by some quite knowledgeable and experienced modellers on the exhibition circuit.  A small industrial looks like an ideas yard or shed pilot, and most of the main line companies had similar locos for such work; one thinks of the various Scottish pugs and the GW's Pecketts and Avonsides at Swansea, or B4s at Southampton, but an actually privately owned loco would be very very very unlikely to be allowed on the a running line, and their remit was strictly defined in exchange sidings, as were the main line company's loco's.  

 

A banker is less impossible, but I would question it's likeliness on a small branch with not very heavy traffic.  It would significantly affect the operating costs of the line, and most companies would find it cheaper to simply limit loads to what a single loco could handle and come back the following day with any traffic left behind, or double head the odd market day special.  As already mentioned, a dedicated pilot is not likely either, again operating costs being the limiting factor

 

Another possibility is topping and tailing; this is where a loco brings a train on to the layout but finds itself at the wrong end to haul it back.  Another loco is summoned, either light engine or with more traffic, and attaches to the front of the outgoing train while the original loco shunts the newly arrived traffic.  The two take it in turns hauling traffic in each direction for the rest of the day.  

 

On some short branch lines where speed was restricted, authority was giving in the local Sectional Appendix to propel, sometimes without a brake van; this could be another solution to your problem

[DCB]

1) Good train arrives with incoming wagons (in red)

2,3 & 4) Reverses goods into goods yard

5) Loco uncouples and travels forwards

6) Shunter moves out

7) Loco goes for a drink and a rest

8) Shunter collects outbound wagons (in blue)

9 & 10) Shunter positions itself

11) Loco all rested and thirst quenched reverses out

12) Loco couples up to outbound wagons

13 & 14) Loco head out with outbound wagons

I would suggest.

 

 

1) Good train arrives with incoming wagons runs into platform and  brake van passes  signal box so Signalman can see tail light.   Signalman waves green flag and train reverses out to Outer Home Signal/ Limit of shunt.

2,) Many wagon brakes pinned down brake van brake hard on loco uncouples.

3 ) Loco sorts out going wagons from those staying, L/H sidings first, Staying against buffers, Going nearest points. 

4) ) Loco sorts out going wagons from those staying in R/H sidings. Staying in one road Going in another.,

5) Loco pulls R/H going into loop, runs round, loco collects L/H Going and forms train in loop.

6) Loco with safety valves erupting pulls train from loop, buffers up to incoming train and after un pinning brakes pushes the whole lot clear of the points and sets back out going into platform  Pin down brakes etc

7) Loco pulls original train into loop

8) Loco pushes R/H incoming wagons into R/H sidings, re arranges wagons to suit unloading.

9) Loco pushes L/H siding incoming wagons and brake van clear of loop points .

10) Loco leaves Brake on main line and pulls L/H incoming back into loop

11) Loco runs to rear of train in platform, propels it out clear of loop points propelling brake van. Brakes pinned down etc.

12) Loco sorts L/H siding wagons.

13) Loco pulls outgoing back into platform, Runs Round.

14) Loco collects brake and propels it to buffer stop end of platform, Loco pushes outgoing train back on to the brake van.

15) Loco crew have a nice cup of tea, (Operator has a Coffee) 

16) Train departs

 

You really want a lever reverse engine, 2251 were passenger engines with screw reverse as were 14/48/58XX and 54/64XX, and definitely not a BoB or WC class.

Edited July 23, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[Eagle_one]

Here’s a possibility if it has to be removable: if the FY was a traverser, and aligned on drawer runners, then it could be lifted off the runners for storage into a crate with stock in position, and the runners folded down to avoid damage. That would greatly decrease set up time, have stock available for servicing etc. separately and new formations could be set up prior to a running session.

[chuffinghell]

Here’s a possibility if it has to be removable: if the FY was a traverser, and aligned on drawer runners, then it could be lifted off the runners for storage into a crate with stock in position, and the runners folded down to avoid damage. That would greatly decrease set up time, have stock available for servicing etc. separately and new formations could be set up prior to a running session.

 

Many thanks for your suggestion

 

I liked the idea of a sliding traverser and it was something I looked at but it would not be practical as it would reduce the operating area which is already a bit of a squeeze for my ample frame

 

A long set up time is really not an issue for me, however, I may go down the cassette route........I'm still undecided

 

Many thanks

 

Chris

[chuffinghell]

Very rough sketch