Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

PS. Don't be misled by looking at 20th century Great Western wagons. They were constructed differently (of course) with exterior knees bolted to the steel solebars and consequently have little interior ironwork - bolt heads directly into the timber, without washers or washer plates. By the 1930s, the LMS had followed suit for merchandise wagons (not sure about the other two groups).

 

For clarity, Great Western practice does not mislead, it educates and enlightens!

[Nearholmer]

I'm imagining a person contemplating a GWR wagon, quizzical look on their face, stroking chin, and saying "Well, I suppose that's one way of going about it.".

[Martin S-C]

Thanks. I am fairly ignorant of wagon interiors but have seen strapping reinforcement internally just beyond the door edges. One of these Speech House models even had it moulded on and I emphasized it with extra strapping. The vertical internal straps I've added are just beyond the door and not a part of it, so the door drops down as normal. However I've seen vertical strapping just inboard of the internal door edges as well. I'm confident about the three prominent vertical straps that add strength and distribute the forces of the opening hinge of the end door.

This Sully wagon was my inspiration. Its not an RCH 1923 standard but then those cannot exist on my model either as its a fictional 1919. Think of my model railway as heavily inspired by John Ahern. I won't be including American pattern boxcars or cabooses however!

[Caley Jim]

2 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

...... Its not an RCH 1923 standard but then those cannot exist on my model either as its a fictional 1919. 

RCH standards just homologation best practice of the time, so wagons matching that standard would have appeared several years before then. 

 

There was an excelled series of article on wagon construction in some early MRJ's. Don't have them handy at the moment so can't quote the issues. 

 

Jim

[Annie]

38 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

This Sully wagon was my inspiration. Its not an RCH 1923 standard.........

It most certainly isn't because it's a Broad Gauge PO wagon.

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Annie
added a picture

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

This Sully wagon was my inspiration. Its not an RCH 1923 standard but then those cannot exist on my model either as its a fictional 1919. 

 

That Sully wagon is of unusual construction. Is it in fact broad gauge? [It is - post crossed with @Annie's - thanks!] Neverthelss, the side knees are the most prominent interior feature, but one can also see the washer plates for the corner plate and end pillar bolts. 

 

40 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Thanks. I am fairly ignorant of wagon interiors but have seen strapping reinforcement internally just beyond the door edges. One of these Speech House models even had it moulded on and I emphasized it with extra strapping. The vertical internal straps I've added are just beyond the door and not a part of it, so the door drops down as normal. However I've seen vertical strapping just inboard of the internal door edges as well. I'm confident about the three prominent vertical straps that add strength and distribute the forces of the opening hinge of the end door.

 

What you call the "strapping reinforcement internally" is the side knees. I had misunderstood the position on the model - it looks too close together; that may just be because the wagon is over-long. Anyway the side knees should go all the way up to the top plank, otherwise there's only a couple of weedy bits of external washer plate to hold it in place amidships - it wouldn't last long!

 

The door ironwork looks right.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

This photo of the wagon shop at Doncaster c. 1916 may help to illustrate the points I've been making. On the left, there's a line of end-door mineral wagons that have reached the bodywork stage. The sheeting (planks) at the fixed end have been bolted to the end pillars. The side knees, attached to the middle bearers, and the end knees, attached to the headstock at the opening end, can be seen sticking up, emphasising that they are the main structural components. On these wagons, the hinge bar is supported by the end knees - the holes at their top ends can be made out. That wasn't universal - sometimes the hinge bar was supported externally.

 

 

[Getty Images, embedding permitted.]

 

 

[Martin S-C]

Wonderful stuff. RMWeb is chock full of people who know a lot more than I do and are very willing to share it. Fantastic place and thank you again. New Thing Learned For Today!

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

There was an excelled series of article on wagon construction in some early MRJ's.

12 and 13 dealt with the prototype, and 13 and 14 with making models.

[Harlequin]

There are 5 people watching the apprentice about to make a mess of things and one of them is saying:

"Hold that brace level young fella-me-lad!"

 

(And have you noticed the red dot in this otherwise monochrome picture? Very odd.)

 

[Martin S-C]

I think its a coloured digital reproduction since there's a line of sepia tone at the base. I can't find the red dot but I am puzzled by the covered vans at the right. Apart from the fact they are 4-wheelers they have a lot of an American look about them. Does anyone know what they are?

[CKPR]

Probably insulated vans (meat or fish) of some form, hence the doors akin to North American reefers.

[Compound2632]

38 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

I think its a coloured digital reproduction since there's a line of sepia tone at the base. I can't find the red dot but I am puzzled by the covered vans at the right. Apart from the fact they are 4-wheelers they have a lot of an American look about them. Does anyone know what they are?

 

They seem to be standard Great Northern vans, with those footboards below the doors and, I think, louvred ventilation panels on the ends, possibly fruit vans [cf P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1: Southern Area (Wild Swan, 2005) p. 56].

Edited May 13, 2021 by Compound2632

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

(And have you noticed the red dot in this otherwise monochrome picture? Very odd.)

No!

[Edwardian]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

They seem to be standard Great Northern vans, with those footboards below the doors and, I think, louvred ventilation panels on the ends, possibly fruit vans [cf P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1: Southern Area (Wild Swan, 2005) p. 56].

 

Or page 49 for 19' vent vans generally.

 

Built from 1906, so we couldn't have them, but Martin could!

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Or page 49 for 19' vent vans generally.

 

Thanks. The Great Northern is outside my comfort zone! I think the nearest I come to having an item of GNR rolling stock is a 1980s Hornby Flying Scotsman - just missed out on being No. 1472.

[Edwardian]

GNR goods stock c.1902.  Go on, you know you want some ...

 

Bill Bedford does a standard 4-plank open (which I will get round to right after the D&S GER wagons!)

[Martin S-C]

GNR vent vans in the Forest of Dean... would that be a thing?

Although I confess I have one of these, just because they are fun:

[Edwardian]

16 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

GNR vent vans in the Forest of Dean... would that be a thing?

Although I confess I have one of these, just because they are fun:

 

It's 1919, so wagons have been pooled. The fruit van version Stephen mentioned was branded 'return to Wisbech' so in GNR days probably remained 'not common user'.  It would thus have needed a specific reason to go the the Forest, whereas I suspect the fruit traffic was London orientated.  

 

The question, then, would be whether the fitted vent van version for general traffic I alluded to would have been pooled. I should think that's much more likely.  Another option would be the Cheshire Lines version. 

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

GNR vent vans in the Forest of Dean... would that be a thing?

Although I confess I have one of these, just because they are fun:

 

At the 31 December 1921, the Knott End owned a grand total of 52 wagons, several of which had been paid for by customers of the line in order to keep it going!

 

Almost as obscure is the R&SBR:

 

 

 

[NRM DY 11406, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

Almost as obscure is the R&SBR:

 

 

 

Ignoring the Midland wagon, which would have been there regardless of the date of the photograph (!):

 

GE open livery post 1902

 

GW open and iron mink livery post 1904

 

SE&CR Maunsel 12" livery post 1917

 

Likely, then, that pooling has happened and accounts for the variety?

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

Likely, then, that pooling has happened and accounts for the variety?

 

Yes, the Midland's official photographer took this photo on 29 April 1920, as part of a series illustrating wagon loads, presumably intended for a staff instruction booklet, though none such seems to have survived. He wasn't very particular about the ownership of the wagons he photographed. The Midland wagon has its number painted on the bottom plank, under the M, a practice that began in 1917.

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, the Midland's official photographer took this photo on 29 April 1920, as part of a series illustrating wagon loads, presumably intended for a staff instruction booklet, though none such seems to have survived. He wasn't very particular about the ownership of the wagons he photographed. The Midland wagon has its number painted on the bottom plank, under the M, a practice that began in 1917.

 

A great reference photo for Martin, then.

 

By the way, I suggest that the covered wagon to the right of the iron mink is another GE vehicle.

 

The GWR built wagons to this appearance only for a relatively brief period, because iron mink production took over in 1887, whereas the similar Holden wagons for the GE were built up to c.1903, so would have been more numerous.

 

More decisively, perhaps, the 21" G and W of the GWR 1904 livery were applied to the top, outer quarters of the van side, where the large G E of the GER 1902 livery was applied to the lower, inner, quarters, and you can just see the top of the G in the picture.  

 

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

By the way, I suggest that the covered wagon to the right of the iron mink is another GE vehicle.

 

Agree. Go on then, where's the GE covered goods in this photo?

[Annie]

There's a GER wagon sheet visible in that photo, but that's no guarantee that the wagon under it is also GER property.

 

There's also an amazing variety in the letter 'G' in that picture.