Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Edwardian]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But there are different ways in which a model railway can be like the real thing. It can be a dead scale model, indistinguishable for the real thing in a photograph. It can be operationally accurate, with all the bells and whistles (and lever frames and track circuits) - an achievable end in tinplate, except perhaps for the track circuits. Or, hardest of all, it can indefinably evoke railwayness.

 

I agree. There are different sorts of accuracy and different sorts of realism.

 

You see, I rather like those films Kevin has posted of the outdoor tinplate railway.  I love this line, it is charm personified and looks huge fun, but when I mentioned that, in a way, I also found it ''realistic'', I could hear people's heads unscrewing and clattering to the floor. Many just didn't get that.

 

What I meant was that, in terms of railway atmosphere, steam, weather, the whole outdoor thing, it was more evocative of a real railway than, say, a smaller, finer, scale layout would be. It had, for me, a more realistic atmosphere than the little indoor electric jobs we all slave over. 

 

So, I'd seek to add atmosphere accuracy to your list.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling

[Tom Burnham]

Simulating actual traffic is a bit easier in North America where the standard item of freight stock is a box car rather than an open wagon, and open gondolas are fairly specialised. Maybe that's why descriptions of US layouts often include some sort of waybill system for deciding which cars get dropped at which station or private siding. No need to worry about "unloading" and you can just pick the now imagined to be empty car up at the next operating session.

[Schooner]

Immersion is largely to do with purpose, for me anyway.

 

The GWR became no less realistic when it dropped broad gauge*; narrow gauge railways are in no way inferior railways. I'm happy with the idea of a tiny real railway, and sometimes wonder if that wouldn't be a better premise than trying to make a real railway tiny.

 

I think the larger scales, particularly outside, are more confident with the former approach. The inevitable compromises of the latter have a negative impact on immersion because so often the point of it all is lost. 

 

Which is, of course, where NM&GS excels - a proper little railway

 

*although less atmospheric perhaps.

[Edwardian]

29 minutes ago, Schooner said:

I'm happy with the idea of a tiny real railway, and sometimes wonder if that wouldn't be a better premise than trying to make a real railway tiny.

 

 

Go on, you know you want to

[Schooner]

Hahaha well I am wondering whether to retrain, so...!

Edited May 27, 2021 by Schooner

[Martin S-C]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

At risk of hogging your thread, Martin, some of the best ‘very small real railways’ that I’ve seen have been 16mm/ft garden railways. Quite a few go wildly OTT, full-on Missmarpleshire, but some are very understated, very ‘naturalised’ (well grown-in), with simple track plans, and simple trains, and they are very definitely real railways, just very small. They give the impression that when your back is turned, the train still runs, staffed by unusually tiny people. Not necessarily photo-realistic or ‘finescale’ though.

Yes, I was thinking of adding a caveat that the most realistic model railways I've ever seen photographs of are outdoor ones where the light is natural and the greenery is as well, and in scale with the model. There's often (with judicious use of what you choose to include in the background of your photo) that sense of no backscene at all but the wider world which you rarely get on an indoor model. You also tend to gain a sense of scale as the model scale increases, for obvious reasons. While there are many small and "Hobbit-like" little garden railways, sleepy with their overgrown track, diminutive locos and wagons, and overhanging greenery, one of my favourites is Nick Trudgian's "Southern Cross" which is simply wonderful in every sense.

https://www.trains.com/grw/how-to/large-scale-layouts/the-southern-cross-railway/
 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Martin S-C

[Regularity]

My models use electricity to run them, not steam. I have to manually couple and couple them, and I don’t tighten the shackles on screw-links. I could use auto couplers, but the real thing didn’t - even knuckle couplers need lining up manually - except on some multiple unit stock, which I don’t model. I can’t do anything about the periodicity of loose couplings swinging, as that is down to their length and has nothing to do with mass, and so on.

 

In short, it’s a model. I know that. I don’t mind that. 

[Martin S-C]

Removed the second transverse baseboard yesterday which finally allows me to walk upright along the length of the room. Its so much nicer having walk-around access to all the work now. When the next layout's boards are in place I will have a think about how to operate it. It will be possible to have the fiddle yard points all controlled from the main station and to assign the fiddle yard loops as either up or down direction. This will take some fiddling about and of course I'd need to get under there to actually take off trains and swap stock but it would mean I'd not need to get under there unless an operator was assigned to the yard or I need to swap stock around. There's the option of a fiddle yard box which could be switched out when not in use and opened when an operator is required there. That's certainly do-able in model form though of course an extra expense.

[Nearholmer]

Back to real, small railways, and the link to the AK website that Edwardian posted, this one is absolutely brilliant fun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wotton_Light_Railway , extending over quite a considerable length in very sleepy countryside. Edwardian will note the profession of the owner.

[Martin S-C]

Another couple of sessions work.

[Martin S-C]

Returning to our earlier discussion about signalling, what I'd like to do next is arrange the point, signal and ground signal levers in the frame for the main terminus (Nether Madder) in the most efficient way possible. I've always assumed that the most common movements would be linked to levers near the centre of the frame or perhaps to that end of it where the signalman keeps his desk and train movement logbook so as to reduce shoe leather wear.

Using the extremely helpful Nick C's plan as a guide (reproduced below) I have drawn up a new diagram that covers signals in red, ground discs or shunt arms in green and points in black. We will be working on the basis of a Midland Railway style of economic point lock where locks are incorporated into those facing turnouts that need them (passenger lines). AKA I can't be ars*d to buy and fit and operate point lock release levers.

Am I on the right track so far? If I'm not then a stale bun or overripe fruit hurled from the front benches will get my attention.

This gets us the second plan below. A few remarks might be necessary. The branch is operated mostly as a tramway. There is a fixed distant where Nick suggested an advanced starter should be and no outer home. There is going to be a "stop on request" halt just south of the road crossing south of the suburban villas to allow passengers to alight to go to destinations off the two roads that exit the model here. This stop is going to be called Coggles Causeway (yes, I intend to pick up and re-use most of the place names from the first NM&GS layout). That whole mini-scene is inspired by this beautifully restful image from the Wantage Tramway:



In the above photo on my version the photographer might have just alighted from a train that has called at the request stop.

The lime kilns siding will be unlocked by a key on the train staff at a small ground frame near the wooden platform of the small halt. This location is called Catspaw Halt and Catspaw Lime Kilns.

The yellow marker just before the road crossing and first buildings of Witts End town is a stop board where down trains will come to a stand, whistle and them proceed at 5mph ringing their bell if they have one. Witts End station will have a very small frame comprising three point levers and one starting signal. If shunts are required onto the High Street beyond the station throat, a man on foot with a flag and whistle will police all such moves.

There are "starting" signals at each end of the fiddle yard (which is called Green Soudley). I am still thinking about how to work the fiddle yard. If I am on my own then a set of levers to control the points from the main terminus would be very useful. A second frame at Green Soudley could be switched in when an operator for the fiddle yard is available. I think this is quite do-able on a model and would also be a quite interesting feature.

On the main line, moving clockwise from Nether Madder terminus we have the home signal just before the branch junction, then an advanced starter and finally an outer home. Next, beside the road overline bridge a junction signal (right arm uppermost) to indicate access into the coal mine or along the main. Beyond Dean Sollers Colliery Platform a second junction arm (left arm uppermost) controls access at what I'll be calling Snarling Junction to give access to Green Soudley from either the up or down direction. There are also signals protecting the junction just west of it and north west. A further signal is the outer home for Green Soudley at the tunnel entrance below Witts End's coal siding which I think I'll model using one of those neat little brackets that are fixed to a retaining wall.

As for signal post and ground signal positioning, since we're in a fantasy version of the Monmouth/Ross/Forest of Dean region I'd like to follow GW practice which I think means on the left of the track though I understand ground signals are usually placed on the side of the diverging route. Sometimes IIRC signals are placed on the inside of a curve to assist sighting and an example of this is the one on the right on the clockwise approach to the colliery. However I love being corrected when I'm wrong!

I have shown on the plan the River Aight and the Puddle Brook, both of which had a short-lived appearance on the first layout, so apart from Armisford Mill I've been able to include all the original locations, albeit in reduced form in most cases.

So two basic questions:

1) Are these all the signals I need?
2) How would one arrange the main frame at Nether Madder?

Nick C's awesome signal and point lever plan:

 

My rewrite of the above taking into account the simplified exits from the goods yard and carriage sidings:



Please note that no trains from platforms 1 and 2 will access the branch. So from them we need only a start signal to the main plus a shunt signal to the carriage sidings, or for locos to access the main in order to then reverse to platform 4 to access the loco shed.

From platforms 3 and 4 however we need starter signals for the main and the branch on both, plus shunt signals to access the carriage sidings, hence my massive bundle of coloured dots there. Another question though - how would a light engine move be controlled from platforms 3 or 4 to the loco shed?

And... would there be starter signals in both directions from the colliers platform? I think bearing in mind how close the next signals are this would look a bit daft but I'm open to advice.

Finally there might be a need to stable an engineering vehicle such as a gas lighting tank wagon on the short spur west of platform 3 for which I've added a ground signal. I just feel the extra flexibility may be useful. Most engineers vehicles will sit on the long siding west of the loco shed, or on the centre road between platforms 2 and 3, or simply off stage, but having the options modelled and available is a nice cherry atop an already well-iced cake.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Martin S-C

[Regularity]

There are always local deviations from standard practice, which may come about from extending a frame to cope with additions to the track work which did not require a complete reksignalling, for example.

 

A late friend, much missed, was rather high-up in railway safety circles, but he told me that generally, the points and locks are in the middle, possibly with some ground signals in amongst them, and the main signals are outside of them, arrange up on one side and down on the other, with it all arranged so that - as near as possible - you work your way outwards along the frame, throwing turnouts, locking facing points, then pulling off the advanced starter, starter, home, inner home, outer home and distant in that order - assuming a non-stop run though (otherwise the starters might be on, and the distant not released). Of course, that many home signals is rather a lot, so not all may have been provided.

As an example re the levers for ground discs, it may have been the case to have, say, number 8 for ground disc, reversing up to down via trailing crossover number 9; number 9, trailing crossover; number 10, reversing down to up via trailing crossover number 9. 8 and 10 could only operate if number 9 was pulled, and pulling 8 would lock 10, and vice versa.

 

If Up is to the left, and down to the right, then the protection of trains comes from having lever number 1 as the down distant, followed by the down home/starter signals, then points, point locks and other levers (ground discs and what have you) followed by starters and homes for up trains, and bookended by the up distant lever.

[Nearholmer]

Yes indeed, but I think that explanation may miss one thing: the frame should be arranged to match the line as it appears to the signalman when operating the levers. Most boxes have the frame oriented so that the signalman is facing the main track when operating, a few so that his back is to the track, and, of course, which side of the line the box is on affects the order of levers.

[Compound2632]

A lever frame is a bit like a keyboard - the most frequently used levers are at the extremes - the signals for the through up and down lines - and, I suspect, for the same reason - slows one down and forces one to think.

 

Plus there's the layout of the locking to consider.

[Nearholmer]

I've always understood that it was to make it logical to use in terms of order of activities to set and clear a route. Typically for a simple transit: restore points to normal first, if necessary, then clear the signals working outwards, clearing the distant last (if it could be cleared).

 

It also lessens the probability of making a mistake that would require the action of the locking to prevent a disaster - with a competent signalman in-post, the locking would barely, if ever, be "called upon", which is a good safety design principle for any system. Monitoring of safety systems often looks for the number of "calls" on protections of last resort, because they indicate that something isn't going well "further down the chain", and protections of last resort themselves have failure modes, even mechanical interlocks, which will eventually be "found" if they are called upon enough times.

[Martin S-C]

May I ask for assistance with my particular track layout?

[Regularity]

52 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I've always understood that it was to make it logical to use in terms of order of activities to set and clear a route. Typically for a simple transit: restore points to normal first, if necessary, then clear the signals working outwards, clearing the distant last (if it could be cleared).

Also there is a desire (not always possible) to avoid run-throughs, where one has to back-track.

Didtant signals can usually only be cleared if all stop signals are clear.

 

Getting the signals in the right order can be quite time consuming: as with layout designs, I try to base things on a prototype.

 

In Martin’s case, something based on Hunstanton would be the starting point.

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes indeed, but I think that explanation may miss one thing: the frame should be arranged to match the line as it appears to the signalman when operating the levers. Most boxes have the frame oriented so that the signalman is facing the main track when operating, a few so that his back is to the track, and, of course, which side of the line the box is on affects the order of levers.

Very true. I once shared a signalling diagram with my late friend for his “approval”, and he wryly remarked that I had obviously been spending time in a signal cabin with the frame at the back of the box, knowing full well that at the time, I was a regular visitor to Melton Mowbray...

[Nick C]

Let us assume, for the moment, that the frame is on the side of the box closest to the turntable - that means we're looking at it the same way as the signalman, and avoids confusion... 

 

Running signal levers are usually arranged in the order they're passed by a train, and as others have said, at the ends of the frame. Points in the middle, generally in roughly geographical order. So I'd suggest the departure signals on the left, points in the middle, arrival signals to the right, shunt signals interspersed as appropriate. So starters 1-6, advanced starter 7. Then the shunts closest to the station, the points there, the opposing shunts, the outbound shunts in the throat, throat points, inbound shunts, and finally the arrival signals.

 

Light engines from 3/4 to shed would probalby use the same shunt signals as controlled movements to the carriage sidings (some companies used separate shunt signals for each possible route, others used one for many). I still think the home for the branch should be further back if you're not having an outer. No need for any signals at the colliers platform, unless you wanted to do as some light railways did, and have a double-arm signal that's normally 'off', and is replaced to danger to indicate that someone wants to board.

 

Something like this (using LSWR-ish terminology, and assuming north is up) - first attempt, might want juggling around a bit:

1. P1 starter

2. P2 starter (pull 27)

3. P3 main starter (pull 31)

4. P3 branch starter (pull 31, 32)

5. P4 main starter (pull 25, 31)

6. P4 branch starter (pull 25, 31, 32)

7. Main advanced starter

8. Shunt east at 13 points (pull 13)

9. Shunt east at 14 points (pull 14)

10. Shunt from <name?> siding 

11. Shunt from middle siding (pull 15)

12. Shunt east at 16 points (pull 15, 16)

13. P1 loop points west

14. P2 loop points west

15. Middle siding points

16. P3 loop points (pull 15)

17. Shunt west at 15 points (pull nil or 15 or 15, 16)

18. Shunt west at 13 points (pull 13)

19. Shunt east from platform loop (pull nil or 27 or 27, 31)

20. Shunt east from P1 (pull nil or 31)

21. Shunt east from P2 (pull 27 or 27, 31)

22. Shunt east from middle loop (pull 26, 27 or 26, 27, 31)

23. Shunt east from P3 (pull 30 or 31 or 27, 29, 31)

24. Shunt east from P4 (pull 25, 30 or 25, 31 or 25, 27, 29, 31)

25. P4 points

26. P2 loop points east (pull 27)

27. P2 points

28. P1 loop points east

29. Main crossover west (pull 27)

30. Loco yard points

31. Main crossover east. [assuming normal is towards p1]

32. Branch crossover.

33. Shunt west from inner homes (pull nil or 28 or 27 or 27, 26 or 31 or 31, 25)

34. Shunt from carriage sidings (pull 31 or 31, 27 or 31, 27, 29 or 31, 27, 29, 25)

35. Shunt from loco yard (pull 30 or 30, 25)

36. Shunt from goods yard (pull 28)

37. Branch P4home. (pull 32, 31, 25)

38. Branch P3 home. (pull 32, 31)

39. Main P4 home (pull 31, 25)

40. Main P3 home (pull 31)

41. Main P2 home (pull 27)

42. Main P1 home

43. Main outer home

 

West box

[1] P4 home

[2] P3 crossover

[3] P3 westbound starter (pull 3)

 

The remaining points would be hand points - either intersperse them in the frame, or have them separateley numbered/lettered.

 

[Martin S-C]

Thank you so very much Nick, that is fantastic. I shall study this with care and get back to you with any questions.

[Nick C]

I've just noticed that you've got the ability to run round a train in p1/2 via the carriage sidings, and 3/4 via the loco yard - meaning that either move won't interfere with a train arriving or departing from the other side. 

 

Is there room, at all, to move the branch crossover slightly to the left? if it could be the other side of the main-p1 crossover, then you could have branch trains arriving/departing to 3/4 at the same time as main line trains to/from 1/2

[Martin S-C]

Hmm, interesting observations. I hadn't spotted those two options. I would imagine that at quiet times a loco running round would go beyond the home signal and be allowed back onto its train via that signal, but I also imagine that at busy times engines running around could use those other two options.

I will see about shifting the branch crossover although where it is now allows a branch goods train to leave the platform 1 loop and go directly down the branch which I thought was a nice bonus. On the other hand having the ability to have two trains arrive at once is also useful, and that would mean having to shunt a branch train back, possibly to plat 4, or maybe the plat 2 release loop (in which case if a goods train were to depart from there I think I'd need a full size starting signal. I'll think about all that... thanks again.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Martin S-C

[Titanius Anglesmith]

20 hours ago, Nick C said:

Running signal levers are usually arranged in the order they're passed by a train, and as others have said, at the ends of the frame. Points in the middle, generally in roughly geographical order. 

 

If I may be so bold to add, sometimes the points associated with running moves were not numbered geographically, but grouped with their respective signals. For example at West Thurrock Junction-

https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagram.php?id= 1221

 

See how the junction points and the trailing crossover are all in the same place but are numbered 11, 8 and 22.  So the pulls for an up branch train would be

 

9 - single-line points

8 - junction points

7 - FPL

6 - branch starting

5 - junction home

4 - junction distant

 

Similarly the down main would be

22 - junction points

23 - starting

24 - main home 

25 - main distant

 

It must have save the signalman a bit of walking 

 

 

edit: missed out 9’s points

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Titanius Anglesmith

[Nearholmer]

And, minimised the chances of the locking being accidentally called-upon.

[Martin S-C]

1 hour ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

It must have save the signalman a bit of walking 

 

Yes, I agree. I have this idea that saving lots of walking up and down longish frames was one of the guiding principals of locating the levers. It does make sense to have all the levers necessary for a movement located close together.

I made a mistake in my previous post. If I reverse the positions of the main and branch crossovers the only direct access to the branch would be from plats 3 and 4. This does mean that a branch goods will block the platform an arriving branch passenger might need to use.

 

Just out of curiosity, if the branch set were stabled in the middle siding between plats 2 and 3, then when it was drawn out for its first trip of the day would it be shunted beyond the main home signal before setting back to plat 4, or down the branch to *its* home signal? I'm assuming the former, but wanted to check.

[Martin S-C]

3 hours ago, Nick C said:

Is there room, at all, to move the branch crossover slightly to the left? if it could be the other side of the main-p1 crossover, then you could have branch trains arriving/departing to 3/4 at the same time as main line trains to/from 1/2

 

3 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

I will see about shifting the branch crossover although where it is now allows a branch goods train to leave the platform 1 loop and go directly down the branch which I thought was a nice bonus. On the other hand having the ability to have two trains arrive at once is also useful, and that would mean having to shunt a branch train back, possibly to plat 4, or maybe the plat 2 release loop (in which case if a goods train were to depart from there I think I'd need a full size starting signal. I'll think about all that... thanks again.

Having had a couple of G&Ts and thought about this I would prefer to keep the direct access from plat 1 loop to the branch for freights. However it would be possible to add a new turnout and length of track shown in red below. To me though that feels rather unprototypical, but it would allow me to have my cake and eat it.

 

Also some small scenic changes. "Railway Terrace" has been angled back purely for the purposes of enhancing the Feng Shui in this area and I've added a pub and a shop, or maybe a chippy to keep the railway workers and their families happy. The end loading dock road has been swung over to give a weeny bit more room for carts to access the goods shed road there.