Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Annie said:

no guarantee that the wagon under it is also GER property.

 

Very true - pooling applied to sheets as well as wagons and there was no rule that they had to stay together. The post-war pre-grouping period is a libertarian's paradise.

 

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

GNR goods stock c.1902.  Go on, you know you want some ...

 

I'll have nothing to do with that upstart Lincolnshire potato tramway, thank you very much. I'm about as likely to want a Caledonian wagon.

 

That said, there is a photo of Baldwin Mogul No. 2207, taken between December 2007, when it got that number in big curly digits on its tender (completing the Wild West look), and November 1910, when it was broken up, plodding along the Midland main line at the head of a train of mineral empties, the second and third of which are Great Northern, possibly that 4-plank sort. 

 

I think if I was to be induced to build a GNR wagon, it would have to have the pre-1898 (?) lettering:

 

         G

NORTHERN

         R

 

Either that, or have 21 mm gauge wheelsets.

 

[Edwardian]

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Agree. Go on then, where's the GE covered goods in this photo?

 

There does indeed seem to be something resembling a GE Nineteen footer, but it must be extremely dirty, because I cannot see the large G or E. 

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

There does indeed seem to be something resembling a GE Nineteen footer, but it must be extremely dirty, because I cannot see the large G or E. 

 

I think you've found it. 

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Almost as obscure is the R&SBR:

 

 

[NRM DY 11406, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

Is the van left of the SE&CR van L&Y? It has that distinctive bracing on sides and door.

Plus an ECKINGTON PO coal open, which places us somewhere near Nottingham I suspect.

https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklistdatabase/63630/bachmann_branchline_33_100xx_7_plank_wagon_2801_in_eckington_red_livery_limited_midlander_edition_of_500_pie/stockdetail.aspx

[Martin S-C]

And on we go with progress, or perhaps, more correctly "regress". There is not much going to waste except time and some of the timber as almost all the track is reusable except for a few very tiny bits that are not worth saving. Much of the wiring can be reused, all the point motors, etc, etc. I'm also finding this dismantling lark highly therapeutic.

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Is the van left of the SE&CR van L&Y? It has that distinctive bracing on sides and door.

Plus an ECKINGTON PO coal open, which places us somewhere near Nottingham I suspect.

 

The photo is at Derby, St Marys, with the goods shed in the background - so looking roughly SW.

 

The van to the left of the SECR van is a Midland D357:

 

 

[Thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 64061.]

 

Upping the game: what are the wagons either side of the Swansea Bay one? We've got a 7-plank with the fifth plank up wider than the others and a distinctive bolt pattern on the corner-plates, and a low-sided wagon, also with distinctive corner-plates - one line of bolts only - and, unusually for such a wagon, diagonal bracing.

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I'll have nothing to do with that upstart Lincolnshire potato tramway, thank you very much. I'm about as likely to want a Caledonian wagon.

Cheeky!!!

 

In that Birmingham photo I'll wager that is a CR Dia 3 covered van, in the horizontally planked form, third to the left of the NB one.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

third to the left of the NB one.

 

Note, everyone, not "to the left of the Midland one*" or even "two to the left of the GW one"!

 

But I agree, the R is characteristically smaller than most others.

 

*Another D357.

 

11 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Cheeky!!!

 

I was being unfair lumping the two together. I have respect for the Caledonian, the second largest Scottish line, and the second best-run. It's simply that a Caledonian wagon being routed onto the Midland at Carlisle at my c. 1902 period is rather unlikely - even for the Leeds area it'd be sent round via the North Eastern, and anyway any traffic for the Midland could in most cases originate from a GSWR or NBR station, as between the two they had good coverage of Caledonian territory.

 

Whereas the GNR(E)* was an interloping upstart. 

 

*To distinguish it from that fine Irish railway.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The photo is at Derby, St Marys, with the goods shed in the background - so looking roughly SW.

 

The van to the left of the SECR van is a Midland D357:

 

 

[Thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 64061.]

 

Upping the game: what are the wagons either side of the Swansea Bay one? We've got a 7-plank with the fifth plank up wider than the others and a distinctive bolt pattern on the corner-plates, and a low-sided wagon, also with distinctive corner-plates - one line of bolts only - and, unusually for such a wagon, diagonal bracing.

 

As is the covered wagon to the left of the iron mink in the Birmingham 1922 picture. 

 

The GN 4-plank near the front looks clean, perhaps relatively recently repainted, yet seems to still have only a single 'scotch' brake.

 

What is the tall covered wagon with X bracing and roof hatch to the right of the GE 19' vent van?

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

As is the covered wagon to the left of the iron mink in the Birmingham 1922 picture. 

 

Vide supra.

 

18 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

What is the tall covered wagon with X bracing and roof hatch to the right of the GE 19' vent van?

 

L&Y I think...

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Vide supra.

 

 

L&Y I think...

 

Certainly I've seen that style, but only on longer wagons, more in proportion to the long, presumably GE, one the the left. 

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

........ I have respect for the Caledonian, the second largest Scottish line, and the second best-run.

As to size, it all depends how you measure that.  I have seen a table somewhere comparing the CR and NBR by route mileage and capitalisation and one tops one column and the other tops the other.  Can't recall which was which.

 

As to how they were run, I saw a quote from a speech made at a CR dinner in which the Caledonian was described as a forward thinking, go-ahead company as befitted a city of merchants and entrepreneurs, while the NB was staid and conservative, befitting a city of lawyers and accountants!

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

As to size, it all depends how you measure that.  I have seen a table somewhere comparing the CR and NBR by route mileage and capitalisation and one tops one column and the other tops the other.  Can't recall which was which.

 

At 31 December 1921:

                                     Caledonian                   North British

Capitalisation            £57,220,352                  £66,471,907

Net income                  £2,278,123                    £2,478,756

Dividend                            £3. 10s             in dispute between the Co. and MoT

Mileage owned          896 m 38 ch               1,275 m 74 ch

Joint Lines                     60 m 78 ch                     16 m 31 ch

Leased or worked      152 m 70 ch                    81 m 34 ch

Locomotives                      1,067                              1,107

Coaching vehicles             3,022                              3,701

Goods vehicles                53,326                            59,972

Traffic mileage

passenger                       7,567,317                      6,760,068

goods                               4,577,523                      5,885,687

no. of passengers        35,856,062                    34,618,223

head of livestock            1,347,842                      2,189,468

goods tonnage             11,912,449                    16,316,023

 

2 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

As to how they were run, I saw a quote from a speech made at a CR dinner in which the Caledonian was described as a forward thinking, go-ahead company as befitted a city of merchants and entrepreneurs, while the NB was staid and conservative, befitting a city of lawyers and accountants!

 

Line 3 (dividend) provides evidence for this view!

 

But you've made the assumption that I was suggesting it was the same company that was both larger and better run than the Caledonian. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But you've made the assumption that I was suggesting it was the same company that was both larger and better run than the Caledonian. 

Ah, the LNWR...

[Compound2632]

14 hours ago, Regularity said:

Ah, the LNWR...

 

Scottish company - that is, company based in Scotland, not simply one with joint ownership of lines in Scotland - so not the Midland or the LNWR.

[Caley Jim]

We have to remember, however, that the CR and LNWR each owned substantial shares in one another and had directors on each other's boards.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

We have to remember, however, that the CR and LNWR each owned substantial shares in one another and had directors on each other's boards.

 

During the 1880s, the Midland and G&SW had the same Chairman - Matthew William Thompson - and made an attempt at amalgamation, which was rejected by Parliament in part on the grounds that there was no physical connection between the two railways - the G&SW using the Caledonian south from Gretna. (What would the amalgamated company have been called? London Midland and Scottish?) The Midland was certainly a well-run railway...

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What would the amalgamated company have been called? London Midland and Scottish?) The Midland was certainly a well-run railway...

 

Indeed, all it really needed was for the Great Western to design some more powerful modern locomotives for it.

 

Oh, but wait ...

 

[Nearholmer]

It might have made a less ludicrously large railway company than the LMS as it emerged in reality, which seems to have been almost too big to manage.

[Regularity]

11 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

We have to remember, however, that the CR and LNWR each owned substantial shares in one another and had directors on each other's boards.

Yes, an "equity swap".

That was behind my point.

A merged LNWR/CR might have had Ron Riddles as its CME, eventually...

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Indeed, all it really needed was for the Great Western to design some more powerful modern locomotives for it.

 

Oh, but wait ...

 

A step up from the GWR designs, I think - a product of thinking freed up from the hide-bound traditions of Swindon. Outside motion and 3 cylinders. Stanier's best looking design in my mind, although the Duchess was/is rather striking.

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Outside motion and 3 cylinders. 

 

Both already well-established on the LMS before Stanier's arrival. His real contribution seems to me to have been as a brilliant manager with the ability to get the very best out of the existing talent.

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

His real contribution seems to me to have been as a brilliant manager with the ability to get the very best out of the existing talent.

The LMS in the 1930s was spectactularly blessed with good management, it seems - with Josiah Stamp at the helm. Shame he was killed in an air raid on London. Who knows what might have been if he had been around a bit longer? 

(And his ready adoption of 3 cylinders and outside motion indicates how open-minded to doing things differently to Swindon he was - along with his reaction to the notorious safety valve trumpet on his first mogul...

And it was his 8F boiler that was used for the 10xx Counties!)

Edited May 16, 2021 by Regularity

[Martin S-C]

To paraphrase Spike Milligan, "I'm working backwards to Christmas".

[Regularity]

27 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

 

To paraphrase Spike Milligan, "I'm working backwards to Christmas"

 

It’ll all be over by then...