NCE Power Cab

[JM2015]

Yes Jonathan, you have 'discovered the weak spot' of the Power Cab in that it does not have a lot of 'power'. Once one starts to use things like juicers and, as you have, Train Tech items.as well as point motors and other DCC gismos, the Cab gets messed up. Have you got the upgraded NCE power supply (for Power Cab), that is 13.5 V @ 1.8A or an equivalent, regulated supply such as a PC charger (loads available with all sorts of power outputs)? 

Using a separate Accessories BUS is a very good idea.

Phil

 

Phil,

 

to be honest I don't know if I have a upgraded  power supply or not. I have 11 cobalt point motors from DCC Concepts and then the 6 Train Tech signals which are now off the track. I think I better have a look at the power cab and see what it tells me.....

[JM2015]

The problem reading things was not "too much power", but "other devices on the track at the same time".    This is another reason why using a layout as the programming track is a bad idea.

 

Your CR signals are on the programming track whilst programming.  So, the programming pulses are now coming from the loco (wanted) and some signals (not wanted), and not surprisingly the PowerCab can't make head-nor-tail of the results.      It will still be able to do "programming on the main" as that doesn't require any reading of the decoder, its just issuing instructions to a specific decoder (eg. "Decoder 159, change CV192 to value 57").

 

Fitting the "programming track switch" (discussed earlier in the thread) and doing the programming on an isolated bit of track somewhere will fix that specific problem. 

Nigelcliffe,

 

thank you for that information, I did not realise until today that the signals were blocking the power cab from sending its own signals to the locomotive, I just assumed everything would work without interference how wrong was i....

[JM2015]

Phil,

 

to be honest I don't know if I have a upgraded  power supply or not. I have 11 cobalt point motors from DCC Concepts and then the 6 Train Tech signals which are now off the track. I think I better have a look at the power cab and see what it tells me.....

Phil I have just checked the power cab and it is version 1.65 B 15 volts via a mains adapter can't tell any more than that.

 

Jonathan.

[Mallard60022]

Phil I have just checked the power cab and it is version 1.65 B 15 volts via a mains adapter can't tell any more than that.

 

Jonathan.

The adapter should have the Voltage output and Amps available on it somewhere.

Phil

[JM2015]

The adapter should have the Voltage output and Amps available on it somewhere.

Phil

 

Hi Phill,

 

The adapter says the following: Input AC100-240v@1.5A 50/60Hz

Output DC 13.8V @ 1.8A

 

So the next question is  do I need a upgraded power supply or is more simple than that? Questions question questions.....

Edited August 3, 2018 by JM2015

[JM2015]

Hi Phill,

 

The adapter says the following: Input AC100-240v@1.5A 50/60Hz

Output DC 13.8V @ 1.8A

 

So the next question is  do I need a upgraded power supply or is more simple than that? Questions question questions.....

It would seem that I have the upgraded power supply, just looking at you earlier post Phil.

 

This might sound silly but what is a accessory bus and how does fit into a layout that has already been wired?

 

I have just been looking under my layout: points are DCC cobalts with Yellow Blue & Green wires coming out of them, Track feed black and red,and then a orange wire going all the way around the layout is that a bus feed or similar, I really don't know anything about wiring. 

 

I should say that my layout was built for me by a very Nice Man called Stephen Reed from Modular Layouts who done all the work for me for which I have no bones with at all, its just me not understanding everything straight away.

[JM2015]

Thanks for the solution Jon.

 

I'll bank the info in case anyone else comes up against a similar situation.

 

I suppose the signals could run from a DC supply. MERG do a kit for an LED dimmer if you have a 12v supply.

 

Best of luck with the layout. Expect to see it at Lyddrail 2019!!

 

Glad to help.

 

Dave.

 

Dave,

 

I have just seen a post for Lyddrail from 2016 and it looks fantastic, my layout is not ready yet but I am working on it, station partly finished Engine shed built another one to build , one peco inspection pit added and another one to follow so I am getting there slowly.... who knows it might be ready by 2019.......

[Mallard60022]

Hi Phill,

 

The adapter says the following: Input AC100-240v@1.5A 50/60Hz

Output DC 13.8V @ 1.8A

 

So the next question is  do I need a upgraded power supply or is more simple than that? Questions question questions.....

That is the 'upgraded supply I'm afraid!

I'd go for separate supply for you points and signals. Just don't connect the point droppers for power (or take it from the track), just in the switch for the frog (+ your frog wire). Power supply to you point motors from a Regulated supply; if Cobalts then 9 - 12V is fine. Dunno about your Train Techs and what they need to drive them?

Phil 

[WIMorrison]

The problem with doing it the way you suggest will be that the DCC signal wont appear on the 'accessory bus' if you go down the seperate supply route which means you won't be able to control them from the handset.

 

The only option is to buy a booster (assuming you can connect a booster to the NCE Power Cab) and use that to run the trains and use the current supply to run the accessories. The other advantage to doing it this way is that when the booster cuts out because of a short on the track e.g. loco overrunning a set of points, you can stills witch the points this removing the short and enabling the loco to start moving again

[JM2015]

The problem with doing it the way you suggest will be that the DCC signal wont appear on the 'accessory bus' if you go down the seperate supply route which means you won't be able to control them from the handset.

 

The only option is to buy a booster (assuming you can connect a booster to the NCE Power Cab) and use that to run the trains and use the current supply to run the accessories. The other advantage to doing it this way is that when the booster cuts out because of a short on the track e.g. loco overrunning a set of points, you can stills witch the points this removing the short and enabling the loco to start moving again

 

Hello WIMorrison,

 

Thank you for your input to this thread, I liken the sound of your idea, is it  possible to use a booster to  boost a NCE Power Cab as you describe?

[WIMorrison]

I'm afraid that I not qualified to make comment upon what can and can't be done with NCE equipment

 

I suggest you call James @ https://dcctrainautomation.co.uk/nce/461-nce-power-cab-starter-set-eu-uk as he suggests that you can eithe use a NCE DB5 Booster or the Cobalt Alpha system, either way not a cheap option costing as much as your PowerCab, but it will solve your power issue

[RAF96]

If you download the Hornby R8247 power and signal booster manual from their website you will see a diagram showing it can be connected several various ways, one of which is direct district to district wiring or in your required case track bus to accessory bus. Other ways use Xpressnet cable.

 

Any booster capable of the direct connection method will work with your PowerCab regardless of if it has an Xpressnet type port or not.

 

In this case we are talking about a DCC signal booster not a controller power supply booster.

 

The name booster is a bit of a misnomer as what it does is provide a separate source of power to a distinct and separate power district, then it passes along the DCC signal from the master controller to that other district.

 

Rob

Edited August 4, 2018 by RAFHAAA96

[beejack]

Hello WIMorrison,

 

Thank you for your input to this thread, I liken the sound of your idea, is it  possible to use a booster to  boost a NCE Power Cab as you describe?

 

For the Power Cab NCE produce the SB5 5 amp smart booster which basically converts it to a pro system. 

Essentially the booster is the command station and power cab becomes a controller. 

This give the option to add UTP panels so that you can unplug the power cab and move it to another socket elsewhere on the layout without effecting the movement of locos or any sounds from locos.

 

You can also then use EB1 circuit breakers which can't be used with the power cab alone and will give you extra protection.

 

Only downside is the SB5 doesn't have a programming track output so you would need to keep you original power cab panel and have it connected to a programming track.  

[imt]

For the Power Cab NCE produce the SB5 5 amp smart booster which basically converts it to a pro system. 

Essentially the booster is the command station and power cab becomes a controller. 

<snip>

 

Only downside is the SB5 doesn't have a programming track output so you would need to keep you original power cab panel and have it connected to a programming track.  

 

Not quite correct in that the chip in the SB5 is actually the same controller chip as in the PowerCab - so you don't get much more than you had - for example no more macros (256 on the Pro) AND you must re-input your macros into the SB5 since the ones you may have made in the PowerCab are no longer accessible. You are told to use the PowerCab manual as a reference.  Nonetheless it all works fine if you understand these little bits which are not always obvious.  Your PowerCab remains as CAB2 so there is no problem in using it to control a separate programming track.  Your PowerCab PCP will continue to work OK too - just remove the track connections and the wall wart power feed.  I ended up replacing my PCP with a UTP with 4 cab bus connectors as I needed the extra connector.  My PCP is now neatly built into a programming/test track away from the layout and my PowerCab just plugs between them.

[imt]

I have had a PM asking me what I meant about the PowerCab still being Cab2.  Those who know on here please excuse this but I though my diagram might help some others.  See attached.

 

I have a 2 controller set up, one for my main station and one for my fiddle-yard.  The one for the fiddle yard is a ProCab so both controllers look and work the same.  Each controller or other gizmo on the bus has to have a number - the PowerCab automatically has an address of "2" - you can set/change these in various ways.  If you add an SB5 and still want the PowerCab to continue to be used as a stand-alone system (for testing or loco CV setting say) DON'T change its address.

 

I am beginning to look at JMRI so I have an NCE USB attachment for my PC.  This has an address of 3 (changeable from the computer as I understand it) and in the past - because of Cab address limits on my PowerCab - I had to remove the ProCab when I did my first testing since it had the address 3 too.  Now I have changed it to 6 and it all seems to work together and they all recognise each other.  When I get deeper into the JMRI thing I might yet find I got that wrong!

PowerCab and SB5 with other additions.pdf

[Mallard60022]

I have had a PM asking me what I meant about the PowerCab still being Cab2.  Those who know on here please excuse this but I though my diagram might help some others.  See attached.

 

I have a 2 controller set up, one for my main station and one for my fiddle-yard.  The one for the fiddle yard is a ProCab so both controllers look and work the same.  Each controller or other gizmo on the bus has to have a number - the PowerCab automatically has an address of "2" - you can set/change these in various ways.  If you add an SB5 and still want the PowerCab to continue to be used as a stand-alone system (for testing or loco CV setting say) DON'T change its address.

 

I am beginning to look at JMRI so I have an NCE USB attachment for my PC.  This has an address of 3 (changeable from the computer as I understand it) and in the past - because of Cab address limits on my PowerCab - I had to remove the ProCab when I did my first testing since it had the address 3 too.  Now I have changed it to 6 and it all seems to work together and they all recognise each other.  When I get deeper into the JMRI thing I might yet find I got that wrong!

That's a really helpful diagram imt. It show the CP6; is that really what you use off the 5A supply?

Phil

[JM2015]

Good Afternoon Everyone,

 

First of all I like to say thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread of mine, certainly wasn't expecting so many ideas and tips, all of which are very welcome. Also I do have a NCE Auto Switch on its way so I can at least Isolate a section of track to program a locomotive without having to take all the locomotives off !

 

The Next part I am not so sure about, The six Signals I did have on the track caused interference with the power cab for programming for chips resulting in the code 255 on the Power Cab. Thank you also to RAF Rob for IMT their latest information about Boosters. 

 

As the Power Cab can't handle the signals and the points and programming all at the same time ( not necessarily all at the same as that is almost impossible ) I need to have a booster for the signals, now if thats going to happen do I then need a separate power supply for lighting or would the system Rob recommended do the trick? The reason for asking is I want to put lighting in the engine shed and possibly have lights for the station at some stage, so would the SB5 booster from NCE be ok for the job or would be plug and or something similar. Don't worry this is not going to happen overnight its just something I would like to do in the future.

 

The main thing here is to get the signals running and not interfering with the PowerCab, when I commissioned the layout to be built I did not think that I would decide that I would like lights and colour signals, these were thought after the layout had been built, thats my poor planning...

 

Once Again thank you  to you all.

 

Jonathan.

[imt]

That's a really helpful diagram imt. It show the CP6; is that really what you use off the 5A supply?

Phil

 

It's a case of what I could afford at the time (which was before the booster) - I'd spent rather a lot on the control system etc. so couldn't afford the clever electronics.  I have 3 rail buses and one accessory bus.  They are not an ideal solution and maybe I'll get something better eventually - but now the £150 for the booster has kind of blown my pocket money!  It is noticeable that NCE continue to refer to them on page 2 of the SB5 manual (2013 version which is what came with my SB5!).  You can also get larger "bulbs" if you wish (1.7 amps rather than 1). I assure you it does work - for me anyway.

[imt]

<snip>

The Next part I am not so sure about, The six Signals I did have on the track caused interference with the power cab for programming for chips resulting in the code 255 on the Power Cab. Thank you also to RAF Rob for IMT their latest information about Boosters. 

 

As the Power Cab can't handle the signals and the points and programming all at the same time ( not necessarily all at the same as that is almost impossible ) I need to have a booster for the signals, now if thats going to happen do I then need a separate power supply for lighting or would the system Rob recommended do the trick? The reason for asking is I want to put lighting in the engine shed and possibly have lights for the station at some stage, so would the SB5 booster from NCE be ok for the job or would be plug and or something similar. Don't worry this is not going to happen overnight its just something I would like to do in the future.

 

The main thing here is to get the signals running and not interfering with the PowerCab, when I commissioned the layout to be built I did not think that I would decide that I would like lights and colour signals, these were thought after the layout had been built, thats my poor planning...

 

Once Again thank you  to you all.

 

Jonathan.

 

I am not sure that I understand your problem.  The PowerCab should be able to support 6 signals plus a few locos.  Whose are they?  My TrainTech ones use 10-12 milli amps each not much of a load.  Nor can I see what things on different addresses to your locos can interfere with anything.  Do you have point motors?  I have just had to buy my booster because my Cobalts demanded too much when fired by a control system (peaking at 0.8 amp when 7 fired at once!).  This with other loads meant all kinds of crazy things happened. Hence my need for a booster!  I now all works well.

 

Why would you want to run building lights from the layout supply?  Surely you would use a separate DC supply for them?  Or have I misunderstood again?

 

Maybe you should list out what you have and what you want so the experts can talk you through it?

[BromsMods]

 

 

As the Power Cab can't handle the signals and the points and programming all at the same time

 

 

 

There are a number of DCC accessories around which need to be programmed on the programming track before they can be used on the layout.  This doesn't mean, though, that there is insufficient power from the PowerCab to enable them to run, so your view that a booster is needed is probably not necessary, at least for the time being.

 

What you need to do is monitor the current being drawn by everything you have connected to the PowerCab, so you need to display the current being used on the PowerCab handset.  To do this keep pressing PROG/ESC until you get to SET CAB PARAMS.  First option is SHOW TRK CURRENT. Press 1 to select Yes, then press PROG/ESC until you are back at the operating screen.

[imt]

There are a number of DCC accessories around which need to be programmed on the programming track before they can be used on the layout.  This doesn't mean, though, that there is insufficient power from the PowerCab to enable them to run, so your view that a booster is needed is probably not necessary, at least for the time being.

 

What you need to do is monitor the current being drawn by everything you have connected to the PowerCab, so you need to display the current being used on the PowerCab handset.  To do this keep pressing PROG/ESC until you get to SET CAB PARAMS.  First option is SHOW TRK CURRENT. Press 1 to select Yes, then press PROG/ESC until you are back at the operating screen.

 

Heartily endorse what BromsMods says - he is one of the Guru's, if now a little less active than he was.  It is his advice in the second para. - display the current used - which helped me home in on my problem, which WAS the need for more power.  In your case I don't think that it is. Anyway find out about your power consumption - it is both interesting and useful.

 

PERSONALLY I don't use Program on Main and have a separate board with a metre of track on it and a PowerCab PCP which has power and I can plug my PowerCab into away from the layout - much cheaper than a switch.  There is nothing inherently wrong with Program on Main, you can only re-program the loco you identify by its address (you needn't take things off!) BUT I am getting old and forget things and complications can arise.  You can make a couple of flying leads with croc clips to program points and signals with from a separate programming track - hence setting them up before you put them on the layout.

[Mallard60022]

Heartily endorse what BromsMods says - he is one of the Guru's, if now a little less active than he was.  It is his advice in the second para. - display the current used - which helped me home in on my problem, which WAS the need for more power.  In your case I don't think that it is. Anyway find out about your power consumption - it is both interesting and useful.

 

PERSONALLY I don't use Program on Main and have a separate board with a metre of track on it and a PowerCab PCP which has power and I can plug my PowerCab into away from the layout - much cheaper than a switch.  There is nothing inherently wrong with Program on Main, you can only re-program the loco you identify by its address (you needn't take things off!) BUT I am getting old and forget things and complications can arise.  You can make a couple of flying leads with croc clips to program points and signals with from a separate programming track - hence setting them up before you put them on the layout.

Broms Mods did that for me too: best advice for ages.

Programme track with Rolling Road, exactly like yours with the croc clips,is also what I use as it can be DC (old controller and another pair of leads with croc clips) or DCC so I can run in new loco's on DC as recommended. Much safer to have this separate for DCC stuff IMO.

Phil

Edited August 5, 2018 by Mallard60022

[JM2015]

I am not sure that I understand your problem.  The PowerCab should be able to support 6 signals plus a few locos.  Whose are they?  My TrainTech ones use 10-12 milli amps each not much of a load.  Nor can I see what things on different addresses to your locos can interfere with anything.  Do you have point motors?  I have just had to buy my booster because my Cobalts demanded too much when fired by a control system (peaking at 0.8 amp when 7 fired at once!).  This with other loads meant all kinds of crazy things happened. Hence my need for a booster!  I now all works well.

 

Why would you want to run building lights from the layout supply?  Surely you would use a separate DC supply for them?  Or have I misunderstood again?

 

Maybe you should list out what you have and what you want so the experts can talk you through it?

 

There are a number of DCC accessories around which need to be programmed on the programming track before they can be used on the layout.  This doesn't mean, though, that there is insufficient power from the PowerCab to enable them to run, so your view that a booster is needed is probably not necessary, at least for the time being.

 

What you need to do is monitor the current being drawn by everything you have connected to the PowerCab, so you need to display the current being used on the PowerCab handset.  To do this keep pressing PROG/ESC until you get to SET CAB PARAMS.  First option is SHOW TRK CURRENT. Press 1 to select Yes, then press PROG/ESC until you are back at the operating screen.

Hello BromsMods, and imt,

 

sorry for any confusion in my last post yesterday. 

 With six locomotives on the track and nothing running plus the six signals from Train Tech and 11 colbolt IP digital point motors my PowerCab is reading .19amp and thats before anything moves.

Single point moves show .31amp on the PowerCab.

Double point moves go up .42amp.

One Hornby class 31 running is between.26 .28 .29amps on speed 014.

Because I did not have a program track I programmed the signals once they were on the track via accy, and I if I had a loco on there that might of interfered with the Chips?

I added 7th train tech signal with the class 31 still on speed 14 the PowerCab is between .28-.31amps.

I hope this helps and makes sense and apologies to everyone for any confusion I my have caused.

 

Jonathan.

Edited August 6, 2018 by JM2015

[Nigelcliffe]

sorry for any confusion in my last post yesterday. 

 With six locomotives on the track and nothing running plus the six signals from Train Tech and 11 colbolt IP digital point motors my PowerCab is reading .19amp and thats before anything moves.

Single point moves show .31amp on the PowerCab.

Double point moves go up .42amp.

One Hornby class 31 running is between.26 .28 .29amps on speed 014.

Because I did not have a program track I programmed the signals once they were on the track via accy, and I if I had a loco on there that might of interfered with the Chips?

I added 7th train tech signal with the class 31 still on speed 14 the PowerCab is between .28-.31amps.

I hope this helps and makes sense and apologies to everyone for any confusion I my have caused.

The current quoted shows you're not using more than a fraction of the power in the PowerCab, so adding a Booster won't do anything other than make you financially poorer.

 

We're back to the posting I made earlier.

 

IF you are "programming using service mode" (also called "programming track"), then there MUST BE ONLY ONE item on the track. How you achieve that is up to you - disconnect the wires, install a manual switch, use the NCE "AutoSwitch" device.   Fix this, and the problems should go away.   

 

IF you are "programming using operations mode" (also called "programming on the main").  Then stuff is fine, because programming instructions only go to the specific item being addressed.

 

 

 

You mention "interference" from issuing programming instructions to the whole layout.   The answer is "depends", but it won't be a disaster.

If you were in "service mode" trying to "read" a loco decoder and it failed, then nothing will have happened. 

If you were in "service mode" and trying to "write" to a loco decoder, then everything connected to the layout will have received that write instruction and should have acted upon it.   As to what that does depends on the decoder in question.   Train-Tech's manual implies that there are no user CV's to program, so their decoders should do nothing when receiving CV programming changes, so nothing there. 

 

Just setting up a Train-Tech signal uses an normal accessory command.  It is no different to operating the signal (or a turnout), so that will not cause any "interference" with anything.   The signal is told to "learn" an address by pressing a button, in doing so, the signal listens for the next "accessory packet" on the layout.  It then "remembers" that packet address for future use.   Nothing unusual or different passes from the DCC system (PowerCab) to the layout.    It cannot alter a loco decoder. 

[imt]

Quoting your post which is somewhat entangled with you quotes:

 

 With six locomotives on the track and nothing running plus the six signals from Train Tech and 11 colbolt IP digital point motors my PowerCab is reading .19amp and thats before anything moves.

 

Nowt wrong with that - the PowerCab is a 2 amp system.  However I note the Cobalts!

 

Single point moves show .31amp on the PowerCab.

Double point moves go up .42amp.

 

Oh yes! My problem too - try writing a macro to throw all 7 at once - you'll be lucky to see less than 0.8!  But their background load is so small as to have not much effect.  They certainly don't stop/interfere with Programming on Main (or rather mine don't).  Please don't try operating your layout AND PoM at the same time though!

 

One Hornby class 31 running is between.26 .28 .29amps on speed 014.

 

A loco sitting there is hardly measurable.  One ticking over on sound might be 0.03 amps.  Anyway - you have a 2 amp system.

 

Because I did not have a program track I programmed the signals once they were on the track via accy, and I if I had a loco on there that might of interfered with the Chips?

 

That should not have been a problem.  Accessories are completely different to locos - have different numbering and different commands.  I have 9 TrainTech and 2 CRS signals - they don't interfere with PoM either.  I cannot see why a point or signal in "program mode" awaiting an address would somehow cause problems with locos.  This is why I have a separate track altogether for programming locos - with a couple of croc clip flying leads to attach to point motors or signals to give them addresses away from the layout.  You can do this easily by buying a second PCP faceplate.  I have a second power supply but you could just use your current one and move it accross.  Attach the faceplate to a piece of track and hey presto a separate programming track!

 

I added 7th train tech signal with the class 31 still on speed 14 the PowerCab is between .28-.31amps.

 

A TrainTech signal according to the owner will take approx 10-12 milli amps (or 0.01 amps) - so that's all right.

 

I hope this helps and makes sense and apologies to everyone for any confusion I my have caused.

 

This all looks fine - except Cobalts in operation - so I still don't know what your problem is?  I was advised to have a separate accessory bus, but that is just split off the track lead from the PowerCab.  My higher power demand of extra things on the accessory bus was such that I needed more power to operate when locos would be running and I was changing signals and setting routes (multiple Cobalt setting) all at once.

 

[What are your loco decoders?  Did you fir them yourself or are they DCC fitted? Is it poor quality decoders?] I have just looked back to the beginning - you have a lot of different decoders!

Edited August 6, 2018 by imt