Guidance with DCC controller options

[Midnight-Freight]

Hi,

 

I know this is a regular question but as I see it everyone is in a unique situation with their own layouts requirements so I don't feel too guilty posing it again.

 

I have an end-to-end layout which requires only slow speed running with currently only 2 locos but will probably increase to 4-5 in time. They won't all be running at once but may be active in some way with either just lights or sound.

 

I recently bought a Bachmann EZ command to get a feel for dcc and test that the layout works as I would like it to. As good and as simple as it is to use I have quickly reached it's limitations in so much as the limited functions (with a TTS sound decoder) the inability to alter cv's (Again related to the TTS decoder needing adjusting) and the low 1A capacity.

 

So after looking and reading up a fair bit this is where my thinking currently is:

 

1) Keep the EZ command and get a sprog II or 3 for programming decoders

  

    Pros - Relatively cheap

               I can keep the existing controller which I do like

 

   Cons - Doesn't address either the lack of functions or capacity of the EZ command so not really a complete solution

 

2) Get a Sprog 3, power supply etc and use this as a stand alone set-up with associated software

 

     Pros - Again relatively cheap, especially as I can sell the EZ command

 

    Cons - The need to fire up my laptop and phone/tablet before being able to run anything

                I think I would prefer a more traditional control of trains rather than touch screen

 

3) Roco Multimaus

 

    Pros - Again relatively inexpensive once I sell the EZ command

              Have read lots of positive feedback and I like what I've seen/read about it's ease of use etc

 

    Cons - Can only write and not read cv's - probably not a big issue for someone who will only want to adjust the odd one here or there

                Availability in the UK not great, can be bought cheaper from abroad on Ebay but is this a risk?

 

4) NCE Power cab

 

    Pros - Seems to have everything covered that I require

               Lots of happy customers

 

    Cons- At circa £150-160 this is really beyond what I can justify spending at the moment so would need to be justified

 

I'm never going to have a big layout with loads of trains running or want to delve deeply into the programming side of things. I just want something that will cover what I've written above. Budget is a major constraint so it's a case of finding the most economical way of doing this.

 

Feel free to correct anything I've said or suggest other options which may be worth considering.

           

[Ray H]

I don't know how long you've had the DCC facility/layout and I have to admit that I'm probably biased over the choice of system/make.

 

I think that we all semi promise ourselves that we're happy with the motive power quantity that we have and possibly happy with the sound files that we've got. Unfortunately, unless we're extremely strong willed, we then find ourselves wishing to upgrade (either motive power or sound decoders or both). For that reason and that reason alone I would strongly suggest that you you persevere with the present system until it really starts to cause you problems. You can then keep monitoring auction sites to see what comes up by way of the system you think is right for you. I'd also suggest visiting either DCC retailers or exhibitions where DCC retailers are attending and check out all the systems they have to see which you like.

 

Have you a friend with DCC facilities or a club nearby that has or has members that have DCC capabilities and might be prepared to adjust CVs for you?

 

I went for NCE kit in the end but as I said before, I may be biased.

 

I hope that helps even if it isn't necessarily what you expected to hear. 

[Izzy]

I would suggest that as you have a limited budget at present then your first option of getting a Sprog seems the best in the longer term at the moment since it will still be of use when you do upgrade to a better specified system when funds permit. Many such as myself prefer to use one to set up and program decoder installs even when other systems are available simply because of the ease of use via JMRI/decoder pro + laptop.

 

If you do choose to get one and it will be mainly for this and also as a back-up system then the Sprog II should be sufficient. Although it's rated at 1amp for normal use this is more than enough, even with a few sound decoders going at once. Generally power supply issues with DCC systems arise when users want to run lots of accesories off the DCC bus such as points/signals/servos etc.

 

Izzy

[Ron Ron Ron]

3) Roco Multimaus

 

    Pros - Again relatively inexpensive once I sell the EZ command

              Have read lots of positive feedback and I like what I've seen/read about it's ease of use etc

 

    Cons - Can only write and not read cv's - probably not a big issue for someone who will only want to adjust the odd one here or there

                Availability in the UK not great, can be bought cheaper from abroad on Ebay but is this a risk?

 

When you say 'abroad" that usually means from another EU country (Germany is the usual source).

 

Most of the MultiMaus' put up for sale on eBay are brand new, split out from Roco digital train sets.

This is where the seller is selling off parts of a train set as individual items.

Someone might want the trains (loco, coaches, wagons or whatever), but don't want or already has a DCC system.

Someone else might be after a DCC system at a bargain price, without the trains and track contained within a train set.

 

The sellers are usually, but not always normal Model railway retailers (i.e. shops or internet).

 

Risk wise...

Until March next year (unless agreement is put in place to continue the current arrangements in full, or in part), as far as mail order is concerned and your consumer rights, it should be no different buying from Dusseldorf or from Sheffield.

However it might be said there is the usual risk of buying through eBay, whether or not the seller is in the UK, Germany, or anywhere else.

 

Anecdotal evidence suggests this is a fairly risk free and popular route to obtaining a Roco MultiMaus or z21 DCC system.

 

 

 

4) NCE Power cab

 

    Pros - Seems to have everything covered that I require

               Lots of happy customers

 

    Cons- At circa £150-160 this is really beyond what I can justify spending at the moment so would need to be justified

 

A couple of "cons" you omitted are......

the low power output  (not a problem for a small number of locos on a modestly sized layout)

and the lack of a dedicated  programming track output (an approved NCE workaround is available at extra cost),

 

You could add to that, the lack of proper electrical protection against short circuits and overloads.

 NCE themselves say.......

 

The Power Cab has built in overload for basic self-protection that will continuously try to reset until destroyed if left uncorrected.

The Power Cab does not have circuit breakers that will trip or fuses that will blow. Use a CP6 to protect the Power Cab against short circuits.....

 

 

 

If the cost of a PowerCab is too high, do as Ray says and stick with what you've got for now, .....or take the plunge and buy a MultiMaus.

The MultiMaus is a bargain at the genuine eBay prices.

They probably won't be available for much longer though, as Roco appear to have put all their eggs into the z/z21 systems.

 

I would image it's quite easy to sell a MultiMaus on, if you decide to upgrade, or don't get on with it.

You won't lose much money and could even get all or most of your money back.

 

Otherwise there's the option of adding a Sprog at a later date to read back CV's.

Alternatively, at a later date you could add a z/Z21 and use the MultiMaus throttle with that too.

 

 

 

.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[amdaley]

Hi,

 

I know this is a regular question but as I see it everyone is in a unique situation with their own layouts requirements so I don't feel too guilty posing it again.

 

I have an end-to-end layout which requires only slow speed running with currently only 2 locos but will probably increase to 4-5 in time. They won't all be running at once but may be active in some way with either just lights or sound.

 

I recently bought a Bachmann EZ command to get a feel for dcc and test that the layout works as I would like it to. As good and as simple as it is to use I have quickly reached it's limitations in so much as the limited functions (with a TTS sound decoder) the inability to alter cv's (Again related to the TTS decoder needing adjusting) and the low 1A capacity.

 

So after looking and reading up a fair bit this is where my thinking currently is:

 

1) Keep the EZ command and get a sprog II or 3 for programming decoders

  

    Pros - Relatively cheap

               I can keep the existing controller which I do like

 

   Cons - Doesn't address either the lack of functions or capacity of the EZ command so not really a complete solution

 

2) Get a Sprog 3, power supply etc and use this as a stand alone set-up with associated software

 

     Pros - Again relatively cheap, especially as I can sell the EZ command

 

    Cons - The need to fire up my laptop and phone/tablet before being able to run anything

                I think I would prefer a more traditional control of trains rather than touch screen

 

3) Roco Multimaus

 

    Pros - Again relatively inexpensive once I sell the EZ command

              Have read lots of positive feedback and I like what I've seen/read about it's ease of use etc

 

    Cons - Can only write and not read cv's - probably not a big issue for someone who will only want to adjust the odd one here or there

                Availability in the UK not great, can be bought cheaper from abroad on Ebay but is this a risk?

 

4) NCE Power cab

 

    Pros - Seems to have everything covered that I require

               Lots of happy customers

 

    Cons- At circa £150-160 this is really beyond what I can justify spending at the moment so would need to be justified

 

I'm never going to have a big layout with loads of trains running or want to delve deeply into the programming side of things. I just want something that will cover what I've written above. Budget is a major constraint so it's a case of finding the most economical way of doing this.

 

Feel free to correct anything I've said or suggest other options which may be worth considering.

 

The NCE Power Cab will do everything you want.

No bother or fuss. Just plug it in & away you go.

You can get it at Hattons for £140.

http://www.hattons.co.uk/60679/NCE_524_042_NCE_Power_Cab_2_Amp_DCC_controller/StockDetail.aspx

 

Tony.

[Phil S]

The Red or Grey Multimaus WILL Read Back IF used with a (multicentralepro or) Z21 ..but NOT with the '764 basic amplifier.

However they are very good and friendly for running trains and accessories 8-).

 

And although ( for public/exhibition use)

I always recommend and use 1 cabled Multimaus; for the Z21 family there is now ALSO the Black WifiLAN Multimaus ...and this has caused the price of Both types cabled and WiFi to DROP considerably!

Gaugemaster or any dealer using gaugemaster will sell you one for the Gaugemaster price ( or less).

Z21 and z21 / z21 start are a good future basis. The '764 amplifier CAN be used as a booster (no railcom ) without modification. ..use only the booster socket... so also cheap if 2 power districts wanted eg accessories and track.( eg 2 multimauses+2 amps = 1 as booster)

I see no risk in buying Multimaus+'764 amplifier 'broken from a starter set': they now come with an SMPS instead of heavy unregulated transformer... lower post and energy costs! .Avoid buying the earlier transformer or '761 amplifier (white cable connectors) as this has less internal protection against shorts etc. And the old transformer was unregulated resulting in high- ish track voltages when no trains were moving!!! .(existing users should buy a standark 18Vdc SMPS of 3-4A for a stable and cooler result)

Edited August 8, 2018 by Phil S

[Harlequin]

The Pi-Sprog is quite neat because the "Raspberry Pi" is a dedicated computer that you can either plug a display, mouse and keyboard into and use directly, or drive from another computer or tablet via a remote desktop connection (VNC).

 

Simpler driving apps can be connected to drive locos and operate the layout without having to see the Pi's interface at all.

 

The Pi can be connected by wired Ethernet or WiFi and you can buy it with the operating system, JMRI and other related software pre-installed.

 

It's a very flexible solution but it can be a bit "techy"...

[Midnight-Freight]

Thanks for all your quick responses. Much appreciated.

 

I think I've got myself a little bit confused on a couple of points which may sway my decision. Firstly my point about the low 1A supply of some controllers was based on me using the EZ command with one TTS sound loco stationary with lights on and engine running and the other loco on a couple of occasions seeming to run a bit slow which I put down to reaching the limits of the controller's supply. If however you can run more then it's not such a major consideration.

Also with the Multimaus I was under the impression it was necessary to use it with either the z21 or Z21 but having found a copy of the user manual online I can see that's not the case. Would the one in the link below have everything to get me going? I don't believe there to be a difference between the grey and red models?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DCC-Control-Roco-or-Fleischmann-multiMAUS-BRAND-NEW-UNBOXED/292598864060?hash=item44204058bc%3Am%3Amgl8ddfrNlF4QhMJEOSkf_w&var=591403806719&_sacat=0&_nkw=multimaus&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313

 

I have always liked the look of the Multimaus and am leaning in that direction at the moment.

[slngshotx]

If you are feeling a little geeky you can build your own system using DCC++, an arduino and a PC.

 

https://sites.google.com/site/dccppsite/the-system

 

I built a full DCC system as a cheap test for about £40 (raspberry Pi running JMRI (£30), Ardunino Uno (£5) and a motorshield (£5)), more than happy with it. Currently controlling it via mobile phones using JMRI throttle, but I'm going to build a real WiFi controller when I get 5 minutes.

 

The standard shield will provide about 3A if you need more then I think you can get upto 64A (should be enough for most people I think).

 

Anyway just another thought if you fancy a different challenge. 

 

Cheers

 

Kevin

[Ron Ron Ron]

....with the Multimaus I was under the impression it was necessary to use it with either the z21 or Z21 but having found a copy of the user manual online I can see that's not the case.....

The MultiMaus is a stand-alone DCC system, but the MultiMaus handsets can be used as additional throttles with other Roco DCC systems, such as the z/Z21.

 

 

Would the one in the link below have everything to get me going? I don't believe there to be a difference between the grey and red models?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DCC-Control-Roco-or-Fleischmann-multiMAUS-BRAND-NEW-UNBOXED/292598864060?hash=item44204058bc%3Am%3Amgl8ddfrNlF4QhMJEOSkf_w&var=591403806719&_sacat=0&_nkw=multimaus&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313

 

I have always liked the look of the Multimaus and am leaning in that direction at the moment.

Red = Roco version

Grey = identical Fleischmann branded version. Exactly the same as the red Roco version.

 

Incidentally, there's also a Blue MultiMaus Pro version (Roco) which can only be used with the long discontinued MultiZentral Pro, wireless system.

 

Also the new black wireless WLAN MultiMaus handset, which can only be used with the z/Z21 systems.

 

The one in the eBay link should be absolutely genuine and at a good price.

Buy it now if you're interested.

The seller is a regular in supplying split from train set Roco and Fleischmann branded DCC systems, via eBay.

 

 

.

[Phil S]

The black lan multimaus can also be used with the digikeijs central controller.

Smart phones and tablets can also be used with the Z21 family which has 2 versions of its app available .. the older one allows background image(s) of the layout to show your layout with accessories ovrelaid and the newer one whichas allows drawing the layout ... hopefully a mk3 will combine both aspects. It also supports pictures of your locos etc... obviously not on the multimausses which only support names and DCC numbers.

Multimaus s/w is now 1.05. Supporting f1-28 with Z21 family.

[WIMorrison]

A wired Multimaus handset can be used with an Xpressnet system or a system that has an Xpressnet port

[Midnight-Freight]

I think I've narrowed it down to either the Multimaus or Sprog 3. Both similarly priced and pretty much cover what I want. I'd always felt the need for a knob type control rather than touch screen, I always felt it would feel a bit disconnected, but the more I consider it the more the idea grows on me and it may just encourage my 10 year old son to show a bit of interest.

 

I would be interested to hear from anyone who uses the Sprog with JMRI engine driver (or other driving app) as to its ease of use, and especially if anyone had the same hesitancy to using such a form of control.

 

Thanks

[slngshotx]

So I use only jmri. (Although with my own pi rather than sprog)

 

The good:-

1 - All features I need are to hand, flick left/right for screens to control points, accessories etc. Although I haven't got points built yet.

2 - upto 3 simultaneous controls on 1 screen.

3 - As many controllers as you want for free (assuming you already have devices).

4 - Throttle control either by slider or volume buttons.

5 - Hardware support for a Bluetooth joypad (worth a play for a fiver for the joypad)

6 - Easy to see what each loco is doing at any time.

7 - Configure screens to contain only the info you need.

 

The bad:-

 

Not much really, I'll sometimes got to select the slider and rather than drag I'll increase/decrease suddenly by 20%

 

Let me know if you have any more questions.

[Midnight-Freight]

So I use only jmri. (Although with my own pi rather than sprog)

 

The good:-

1 - All features I need are to hand, flick left/right for screens to control points, accessories etc. Although I haven't got points built yet.

2 - upto 3 simultaneous controls on 1 screen.

3 - As many controllers as you want for free (assuming you already have devices).

4 - Throttle control either by slider or volume buttons.

5 - Hardware support for a Bluetooth joypad (worth a play for a fiver for the joypad)

6 - Easy to see what each loco is doing at any time.

7 - Configure screens to contain only the info you need.

 

The bad:-

 

Not much really, I'll sometimes got to select the slider and rather than drag I'll increase/decrease suddenly by 20%

 

Let me know if you have any more questions.

 

Great thanks. I might try downloading the software and the app and see if it will allow me to play around with it without it being connected to a layout.

[ianLMS]

Multimaus and z21/Z21 is available from Ipswich Model Rail centre - https://www.scograil.co.uk/. They do the different versions of the Roco system and extremely helpful. z21 + Multimaus = £129.99 + £35 for the wi-fi package if you need it.

 

My opinion only - Exceptional value for the ability to operate from your smart phone, tablet, PC or via the multimaus handset! 

 

https://www.scograil.co.uk/roco-multimaus-with-z21-start-10729-p.asp

 

No need to put your trust into Ebay when you can talk to someone face-to-face or on the phone!

 

Ian 

[WIMorrison]

Good place to buy from as that is where I bought mine from

 

I don’t know what their support is like as I have found the Z21 so easy to use I have never had any reason to ask for any help or assistance.

[Izzy]

The only extra info I can give with regard to the sprog - I’m afraid I have no experience of the z21/Z21 so can’t offer a comparison - is that it is very versatile in that you can connect it up to virtually any flavour of laptop/computer you have around at the time, and although the onscreen throttles might not be brilliant, you can have as many open as you want. Both the wi-fi throttles available for Android and Apple are decent, though I must confess to preferring the latter. Really good for function button access if you have sound, and especially with a large screen device.

 

I will say though that it is the decoder pro option that I use most. So easy to use. Jmri/dp can be installed/booted up and played with without the laptop etc being connected up to anything, so you can see what it is like. It is free to download/use and under constant revision/development.

 

Izzy

Edited August 14, 2018 by Izzy

[Midnight-Freight]

Multimaus and z21/Z21 is available from Ipswich Model Rail centre - https://www.scograil.co.uk/. They do the different versions of the Roco system and extremely helpful. z21 + Multimaus = £129.99 + £35 for the wi-fi package if you need it.

 

My opinion only - Exceptional value for the ability to operate from your smart phone, tablet, PC or via the multimaus handset! 

 

https://www.scograil.co.uk/roco-multimaus-with-z21-start-10729-p.asp

 

No need to put your trust into Ebay when you can talk to someone face-to-face or on the phone!

 

Ian 

Thanks for the info and link. I'll try and speak to them at some point as they list the Multimaus with 10779 digital base station for £89.95 whereas the one I linked to earlier came with 10764 amplifier. Not sure if it's effectively the same thing or not but I was of the understanding you needed the amplifier.

[Midnight-Freight]

The only extra info I can give with regard to the sprog - I’m afraid I have no experience of the z21/Z21 so can’t offer a comparison - is that it is very versatile in that you can connect it up to virtually any flavour of laptop/computer you have around at the time, and although the onscreen throttles might not be brilliant, you can have as many open as you want. Both the wi-fi throttles available for Android and Apple are decent, though I must confess to preferring the latter. Really good for function button access if you have sound, and especially with a large screen device.

 

I will say though that it is the decoder pro option that I use most. So easy to use. Jmri/dp can be installed/booted up and played with without the laptop etc being connected up to anything, so you can see what it is like. It is free to download/use and under constant revision/development.

 

Izzy

Thanks for the info. I will definitely download the software and have a play around with it. I've read a fair bit about it but just reading makes it sound probably more complicated to get up and running than it actually is.

[Phil S]

The 10764 amplifier has effectively been replaced by the Z21 family ... which include more connection options AND contain the operating software as well as the 'power stage'.

Go to the Z21.EU pages to compare the Z21 and Z21 and z21 start versions ... it's as clear as black or white 8-)

Z21 black has all the options and higher price.

 

 

When using the Amplifier 10764 (or older 761), the Software is in the MASTER controller .... eg a Maus2 or Multimaus connected using 6 wires through the MASTER socket... 2 for power 2 for data between handsets (expressnet with multimaus) and 2 for the generated DCC which is then power-amplified by the 10764 box. ANY SLAVES are connected in series daisy chain from the SLAVES socket and use only 4 wires... 2 power and 2 data. THE MEMORY USED for locos and points is that of the MASTER handset. (If a Maus2 2 is plugged in as master, the system so limitEd to a Maus2 capability. .. but not if used as a slave to a Multimaus master. )

The Amplifier is the SAME as their BOOSTER... just using different sockets (NOT the Master or Slave ONLY the Booster socket!!!!!)

The Amplifier 10764 does NOT support Railcom or Read Back. ..BUT the Z21 does, as does a Multimaus when used with a Z21. 1.05sw gives 28 functions on a Multimaus with Z21 Z21.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Phil S

[Matt C]

+1 for the black Z21. Does all I want, will work with either apple or Android AND jmri/ Decoder pro. Easy to set up and operate. The good thing for me is that its App based so as they develop new features the Apps get auto updated when you connect your phone / tablet or whu to the internet and then when you connect to the Z2 1 box you can update it with any new software that has been released for it as well. Been meaning to ask how you guys running NCE keep its software up to date ? Anyway can definately recommend the Z21

[Matt C]

One other thing worth mentioning with the Z21 system is if you are operating with younger members, you can load JUST the locos on to their device that you want them to control, so that is the ONLY ones they can move, and by having the same loco open in a throttle on your device you can instantly take control of it or cut power to the whole layout etc if they get in trouble, also being able to subtly 'help' younger members to control their loco via your throttle. And if more friends visit ? Find an old apple or android device, load the app load on loco info and away they go as well. A very versatile system.

[WIMorrison]

+1 for the black Z21. Does all I want, will work with either apple or Android AND jmri/ Decoder pro. Easy to set up and operate. The good thing for me is that its App based so as they develop new features the Apps get auto updated when you connect your phone / tablet or whu to the internet and then when you connect to the Z2 1 box you can update it with any new software that has been released for it as well. Been meaning to ask how you guys running NCE keep its software up to date ? Anyway can definately recommend the Z21

Updating the z/Z21 software from the phone app is only supported when using the Android App.

 

The Maintenance Application is only provided for Windows OS.

[Nigelcliffe]

Been meaning to ask how you guys running NCE keep its software up to date ?

 

Like most systems, the NCE system has had perhaps a couple of updates in over 15++ years.  Because it doesn't need to change, the DCC specification was written down 25 years ago, had a few minor changes along the way, and that's it.  So a DCC system which works against the spec doesn't need updates or changes.   If the maker wants to add new features, that requires an update.  In NCE's case, a single EPROM inside the case is replaced by the end user, its marginally harder than changing the battery in a device (NCE have offered this a couple of times along the way). 

 

App based systems, such as the Z21, have the potential for regular updates.   They also make it easier to release a product which is "not quite finished" (or even at "minimum viable product" level), and then change it along the way with updates.   Because of the software features (soft throttles, on-screen turnouts, etc.), there is a lot of things which are likely to need changes as use evolves and lessons are learned about what works well and what works less well.    The downside of any App based system is the devices which run the App - the devices are very variable in capabilities (particularly Android), and devices become "old" very rapidly: it takes quite a lot of effort on the manufacturer's side to keep multiple copies of Apps in circulation so that an older device can still have an App loaded onto it.  And some App platforms (Android/Google, Apple) might make it extremely hard for an App developer to support older devices with any App updates.   So, App based stuff is OK if you plan to replace your device fairly regularly (a few years), which is probably fine if its also your phone.  But less good if you plan to buy some handsets for the model railway and expect them to do ten years plus.