Diesels come to Pendon! Form an orderly queue!

[PMP]

my chauffer has already loaded my favourite brace of 12 bores.

I wouldn’t bother bringing them, there’s enough here already ..

[griffgriff]

Thats not what Pendon is about though and never has been.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

It has to be in order to survive.... I’m afraid publicity is the name of the game these days. Like it or loathe it.... it’s a necessary to attract visitors the other side of 40 (from me).

[Edwardian]

 

I visited last year and my only criticism is that the village in the Vale scene doesn't look to me like a real village. The buildings are not aligned with the road system as I would expect, but laid out in a kind of country park, which makes it look more like a museum of picturesque buildings than a plausible settlement.

 

I hadn't considered that.

 

How about this?

[Nearholmer]

Andy,

 

I wondered about that too, but came away promising myself a wander round some such villages to confirm or deny.

 

I went through a village north-east of Banbury the other day, and that seemed to have an utterly anarchic street plan, with houses seemingly in the middle of the road and multiple levels, so weirdly laid-out places certainly do exist.

 

Kevin

[The White Rabbit]

I visited last year and my only criticism is that the village in the Vale scene doesn't look to me like a real village. The buildings are not aligned with the road system as I would expect, but laid out in a kind of country park, which makes it look more like a museum of picturesque buildings than a plausible settlement.

 

From Edwardian's photos, the only thing I spotted was some fields look a bit small - and that could just be the camera angle, it's been a fair few years since I went but I recall at least some realistically sized fields. Is the problem we're not that familiar with such villages? The scene's inspiration comes from the 1920s, when villages looked a lot different to how they appear today, even 'old-fashioned' villages with little modern development. I have a book of old black & white photos of East Devon showing villages I know very well indeed, from the 1990s to today. They looked very different in the 1910s/1920s. Not just the obvious stuff like fewer thatched roofs, tarmac roads, four wheel drives and satellite dishes, but the way houses were laid out. And in those days, 'town and country planning' was more down to individual landowners/landlords and their whims rather than national legislation. Some (Titus Salt?) did have rather idealised ideas about how villages should be built. I've no idea about how that part of the world looked when Roye England was travelling to London after coming off the boat but given his high standard of working, I have my doubts he or his team would have been casual about such matters. 

[The White Rabbit]

Andy,

 

I wondered about that too, but came away promising myself a wander round some such villages to confirm or deny.

 

I went through a village north-east of Banbury the other day, and that seemed to have an utterly anarchic street plan, with houses seemingly in the middle of the road and multiple levels, so weirdly laid-out places certainly do exist.

 

Kevin

 

The symmetry of irregularity...  I've seen such places too. 

[bécasse]

Surely it would not harm the ethos of Pendon if Guy Williams's locos were retired and replaced by newly built ones.

 

I visited last year and my only criticism is that the village in the Vale scene doesn't look to me like a real village. The buildings are not aligned with the road system as I would expect, but laid out in a kind of country park, which makes it look more like a museum of picturesque buildings than a plausible settlement.

 

I rather suspect that you are wrong. The basic layout for the village had already been worked out when I was actively involved with Pendon over half-a-century ago and Roye would never have accepted anything that wasn't typical of the real thing. Some buildings may have been modernised or demolished but the vast majority of villages in the Vale then looked more or less as they would have done three or so decades earlier so there was plenty of raw material to replicate. I am not going to spend hours ploughing through Old Maps to prove the point, but I do it find it interesting that in the village that is my current home (a long way from the Vale, of course), buildings are all higgledy-pickerdy to the roads and architects designing infill structures go to great lengths to ensure that they too are at odd angles thus contributing to the interest of the village scape rather than detracting from it - the result is something very different from British villages of today.

 

As to the other issue, I would consider totally reasonable that Guy's locos should be gradually retired rather than run to ruin. It is probably rather simpler today to reproduce models of such quality (although as critical manufacturers start to disappear that might not hold true for much longer) and there are probably competent modellers around who would be happy to build and gift potential replacement models if the need was identified.

Edited August 18, 2018 by bécasse

[Andy Kirkham]

I rather suspect that you are wrong. The basic layout for the village had already been worked out when I was actively involved with Pendon over half-a-century ago and Roye would never have accepted anything that wasn't typical of the real thing. Some buildings may have been modernised or demolished but the vast majority of villages in the Vale then looked more or less as they would have done three or so decades earlier so there was plenty of raw material to replicate. I am not going to spend hours ploughing through Old Maps to prove the point, but I do it find it interesting that in the village that is my current home (a long way from the Vale, of course), buildings are all higgledy-pickerdy to the roads and architects designing infill structures go to great lengths to ensure that they too are at odd angles thus contributing to the interest of the village scape rather than detracting from it - the result is something very different from British villages of today.

 

As to the other issue, I would consider totally reasonable that Guy's locos should be gradually retired rather than run to ruin. It is probably rather simpler today to reproduce models of such quality (although as critical manufacturers start to disappear that might not hold true for much longer) and there are probably competent modellers around who would be happy to build and gift potential replacement models if the need was identified.

Thanks. I'm more than happy to discover that my impression was mistaken.

[PhilJ W]

Rule 1 has been applied, so what's the problem?

[griffgriff]

Rule 1 has been applied, so what's the problem?

When it comes to Pendon; Rule 1... there is no Rule 1!

[Pacific231G]

So. If you visit Pendon on any of its normal opening days you'll see the Vale scene as Roye England intended with a village that looks so different from how it would look today that many may think it isn't credible. That's surely the whole point of the scene, to depict a world that's disappeared and that couldn''t be recreated in any other way.  Through that scene run trains appropriate to the 1930s when the railway was still the main form of transport for the people who would have lived there, and more important their produce. In the Vale scene the railway is part of the landscape but the landscape is not  a backdrp for the railway. In that regard the Vale scene is not a "model railway" and while the same standard of modelling can be seen on some model railways (Pempoul comes immediately to mind) they are not models of a complete human and natural landscape which the Vale scene is. Arguably, the Dartmoor scene IS a model railway where the scenery is acting as a backdrop for the trains.

 

However, if you choose to go there on a particular weekend when it wouldn't normally be open, you'll see it acting as the backdrop for a wider range of ralway models. When that weekend is over those models will be removed and on the next normal opening day everything will be back to normal. Everyone criticising Pendon for this also seem to have not noticed that it's the finale of an exhibtion looking at the develpment of fine scale modelling over time.

 

I really can't see what harm this event can do. If it attracts visitors who wouldn't normally have gone there then it will have helped Pendon's finances and, more importantly, exposed more modellers and potential modellers to the very high standard of modelling and portrayal that Pendon exemplifies.

 

Also: I totally agree with Bécasse and see absolutely no problem with Guy Williams' locomotives being gradually retired (and undoubtedly put on display as static models) and replaced with models built to the same standards or better by modellers who care about Pendon. That's exactly what's happened with the buildings and scenery, most of which were not built by Roye England but by other modellers following in his footsteps.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Ian J.]

Regarding the layout of villages, I have the impression that up until the 1930s there was still a fair bit of use of horse (or oxen) and cart. Most villages would still have been extant for the purposes of people working on the surrounding land, and therefore somewhat self-contained. I imagine then that they would not have their dwellings built along a main road through, but scattered about a bit, with rough paths between houses rather than metalled paths or roads.

[Craigw]

It has to be in order to survive.... I’m afraid publicity is the name of the game these days. Like it or loathe it.... it’s a necessary to attract visitors the other side of 40 (from me).

 

I know that and have no problem at all with what they are doing - they also do modelling days for kids and other workshops 

 

I was commenting about the suggestion of building Pendon with RTR track and rolling stock and most people not noticing.

 

Pendon is not about people not noticing.

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

[jjb1970]

This thread reminds me of a very accomplished organist I once had the privilege to know. He used to play organ recitals at the local cathedral (he was actually the organist for another cathedral) and often included rather challenging pieces. He also had a habit of asking people if they wanted to stay behind and enjoy a bit of good time "I do like to be beside the seaside stuff" and enjoyed getting people clapping along and singing. I found it heartening that the audience reaction was generally very favourable and that very few muttered about dumbing down. There is a place for taking things seriously and being high brow, there is also a place for just having fun. That chap introduced me to one of my favourite pieces of music, the organ sonata of Reubke, a wonderful piece I'd probably never have heard otherwise.

[chris p bacon]

This thread reminds me of ......... my favourite ...... organ,....... a wonderful piece

 

 

I really must stop skim reading.....

[Metr0Land]

Just on a point of order - if a member of public checks the opening days/times on the calendar, 01/02Dec are shown as dark green, open 11am-4pm with prices. Clicking on these dates doesn't bring up any additional info about dieselisation.

 

(As stated before I'm happy with this development but wonder if they need to do more for casual browsers?)

[Pacific231G]

I know that and have no problem at all with what they are doing - they also do modelling days for kids and other workshops 

 

I was commenting about the suggestion of building Pendon with RTR track and rolling stock and most people not noticing.

 

Pendon is not about people not noticing.

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

I rather agree. People with no direct experience or knowledge of an activity may not know why something is of high quality but they generally know when it is.

 

What has changed at Pendon since I first visited it as a youngster was that then it seemed to be simply exhibiting a level of modelling that the rest of us could only admire but never hope to emulate. Now it's much more interested in encouraging the aspiration of modellers, Most of us will never reach the standard of modelling exhibited at Pendon (though some may) but we can all learn from the techniques and approach used by Pendon's modellers and there's far more explanation of those now than I can remember in the past.  

[Covkid]

Class 108 with speed whiskers? Not on the Western Region at that time....

 

This reminds me of the early 1980s when RTR DMUs consisted of Lima Suburban units or the Hornby Calder Valley. A number of exhibition layouts had one of the other as a "token" DMU even if the setting was nowhere near the geographic area where the real units operated. 

 

I am inclined to agree. A Dapol 121 bubble car would be admirable in my view

Edited August 19, 2018 by Covkid

[4069]

 

 

Take Madder Valley: Pendon's museum ethos causes it to tie itself up in knots over whether to leave a worn mechanism in a dead locomotive to respect the integrity of the historic exhibit, or, replace a mechanism so the thing can actually run.  I'm pretty sure what Mr Ahern would have suggested, had he been with us, but in the meantime I've seen shots of the layout populated by various RTR locomotives, which don't really seem preferable to either alternative.

 

I don't know what pictures you have seen, but there is not normally any stock on the Madder Valley that was not built by John Ahern.

 

Bear in mind that, to preserve the scene and the trains, it is only operated on three or four days each year, and on those days the odd charter service may sometimes just turn up...

Edited August 19, 2018 by 4069

[Clearwater]

I rather agree. People with no direct experience or knowledge of an activity may not know why something is of high quality but they generally know when it is.

 

What has changed at Pendon since I first visited it as a youngster was that then it seemed to be simply exhibiting a level of modelling that the rest of us could only admire but never hope to emulate. Now it's much more interested in encouraging the aspiration of modellers, Most of us will never reach the standard of modelling exhibited at Pendon (though some may) but we can all learn from the techniques and approach used by Pendon's modellers and there's far more explanation of those now than I can remember in the past.

 

That partially reflects how museums have developed over the last 20/30 years. Far more emphasis on explaining why, interaction than dull objects with badly typed labels.

 

I really enjoyed Pendon yesterday. If I was being picky, they could have more on the social context of rural life and why the railways ran the services they did. It's not a model rail exhibition and the trains loop around fairly frequently so you don't get the service variety you see at an equivalent 'parade' show layout.

 

It could perhaps do with a video ticker type system to show which train is moving, where it's going to and from. Perhaps embedded touch screens would be good. I may be at the niche end, but I'd like such touch screens to then allow you to click on the coach to see its diagram, heritage etc.

 

David

[PMP]

 

 

I really can't see what harm this event will do. If it attracts visitors who wouldn't normally have gone there then it have helped Pendon's finances and, more importantly, exposed more modellers and potential modellers to the very high standard of modelling and portrayal that Pendon exemplifies.

 

.

Fixed the tense for you too

 

Pendon like other museums needs to attract ‘staff’ to survive particularly those with technical skills. In this case it’ll be modellers that can scratch build or assembly and paint kits to literally ‘museum standards’ with no disrespect those who do the walking and talking regarding the display can be acquired far easier. If this limited ( once every 30 minutes) or so display of appropriate diesels and rolling stock attracts the attention of D&E modellers who wouldn’t visit anyway, that can only be a good thing. I think they could push it further. I know of three D&E modellers whom have expressed an interest in seeing this weekend, something they wouldn’t normally do. They’ll be visiting to see diesels on Pendon as well as the regular stock. What’s not to like?

 

Perhaps they’ll turn up wearing those black ‘no kettles’ T shirts as well..

[Pacific231G]

Fixed the tense for you too

 

Pendon like other museums needs to attract ‘staff’ to survive particularly those with technical skills. In this case it’ll be modellers that can scratch build or assemble and paint kits to literally ‘museum standards’; with no disrespect to those who do the walking and talking regarding the display that can be acquired far more easily. If this limited ( once every 30 minutes or so) display of appropriate diesels and rolling stock attracts the attention of D&E modellers who wouldn’t visit anyway, that can only be a good thing. I think they could push it further. I know of three D&E modellers who have expressed an interest in seeing this weekend, something they wouldn’t normally do. They’ll be visiting to see diesels on Pendon as well as the regular stock. What’s not to like?

 

Perhaps they’ll turn up wearing those black ‘no kettles’ T shirts as well..

Only one of the tenses ! I've corrected yours too

 

I don't think any of the modellers at Pendon assemble and paint kits. So far as I know it is all scratchbuilt.

I do think this needs to be kept apart from the normal sequence. Having this deliberately anachronistic display as a special event should work but i wouldn't want to see it becoming a regular part of the display (any more than I'd want to see one of the villagers with a chain saw).as it would risk turning the incredibly well researched 1930s Village Scene into a mere generic backdrop for a  display of trains. There is a place for layouts that run a sequence of trains "through the ages" in a deliberately slightly vague setting but it's not the Village Scene at Pendon.

 

 

Take Madder Valley: Pendon's museum ethos causes it to tie itself up in knots over whether to leave a worn mechanism in a dead locomotive to respect the integrity of the historic exhibit, or, replace a mechanism so the thing can actually run. I'm pretty sure what Mr Ahern would have suggested, had he been with us, but in the meantime I've seen shots of the layout populated by various RTR locomotives, which don't really seem preferable to either alternative.

I don't know what pictures you have seen, but there is not normally any stock on the Madder Valley that was not built by John Ahern.

 

Bear in mind that, to preserve the scene and the trains, it is only operated on three or four days each year, and on those days the odd charter service may sometimes just turn up...

 

It's a bit more than the odd charter. The small team who look after and, on a few days each year, operate the MVR do use appropriate RTR locomotives on operating days to augment and conserve John Ahern's original equipment. 

The dilemma with the Madder Valley has always been whether to conserve it as a purely static display or to recognise that John Ahern didn't intend it to be a mere diorama and so maintain it as a working model railway. The first option was more or less how it was displayed for many years with no changes beyond those required to make it viewable (mainly turnrng it from a U into an L) but with visitors, except on very rare occasions, only able to imagine it with trains running.

 

As with any piece of working machinery from automata to aeroplanes and of course steam locomotives, having it as a working model has required some compromises with strict conservation. The layout has been rewired and I understand that some work has had to take place on the track. Augmenting the original locomotives with a small number of RTR ones appropriate to the MVR on the limited number of operating days is not though a compromise in terms of conservation as they don't affect the original models. They enable visitors to see trains running up and down the Madder Valley fairly reliably and when the operating day is over they can be returned to their boxes.

 

Personally I find being able to see it running as a working layout really brings Ahern's work to life and my own visits to Pendon normally coincide with MVR operating days.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Pacific231G

[scottishlocos]

All

 

Let me turn this around why should we D&E modellers spend a single cent on this venture to a museum which has until now had a very anti D&E policy also if its a true one off then none of the funds raised will do anything to further D&E modelling on a wider scale.

 

In addition maybe many are suffering from Pendon fatigue as the amount of articles in the model railway magazines is ridiculous some of them may as well be *New Track pins put on The Vale* here's a six page special this is to the detriment of all modellers as other articles are pushed out for something that has been covered a thousand times.

 

Dave

Edited August 19, 2018 by scottishlocos

[t-b-g]

Apparently Tony Gee is contemplating a 153 on Leighton Buzzard.

 

I do agree with you that is seems very at odds with the premise of Pendon to introduce diesels albeit in green form but if it is an experiment and not the norm and the models used are of the right quality which i would expect they will be then it's not the end.

 

I am contemplating a weekend down in Oxfordshire to visit Pendon and it is the P4 Bodmin that is making it attractive to visit on that particular weekend.

I don't know what a 153 is. I don't have one and I have no wish to have one. If I had one, I wouldn't put it on LB!

 

We do have guests appearing from time to time but why anybody would want to replace a bunch of superb hand built locos and stock with modern RTR mass produced models is something I don't really understand. If they were all kit or scratchbuilt 1960s items,that would be more in keeping and worth seeing.

 

Still, if it gets Pendon talked about and a few more people through the door, I won't knock it. Buckingham doesn't need either more people talking about it or people through the door. It is quite content as it is.

[Pacific231G]

All

 

Let me turn this around why should we D&E modellers spend a single cent on this venture to a museum which has until now had a very anti D&E policy also if its a true one off then none of the funds raised will do anything to further D&E modelling on a wider scale.

 

In addition maybe many are suffering from Pendon fatigue as the amount of articles in the model railway magazines is ridiculous some of them may as well be *New Track pins put on The Vale* here's a six page special this is to the detriment of all modellers as other articles are pushed out for something that has been covered a thousand times.

 

Dave

I don't understand this at all Dave. Pendon is a model museum, unique in the world so far as I know*   portraying with extraordinary detail and accuracy a piece of rural England as it was in the 1930s including its railways. That was a time before diesels had started to appear (at least in the Vale of the White Horse) so they're not appropriate to it any more than Britannias or 9Fs would be. That's not an anti D&E policy any more than it's an anti BR or even an anti LNER policy.

 

If editors choose to run articles on Pendon it is presumably because their readers appreciate them and there's nothing in Pendon's methods and techniques that wouldn't be appropriate to a modeller portraying D&E.  I don't think there's been an article on building steam locos for Pendon in a very very long time. I doubt whether other modelling articles are being pushed out. Isn't the dllemma for most editors sourcing enough articles of high enough quality? 

 

*Rambolitrain (in Rambouillet about thirty miles SW of Paris and very accessible by train) exhibits a comparable standard of modelling but is essentially a scenic O scale model railway with some excellent cityscape rather than a portrayal of a complete landscape with trains. It also includes on the floor below the main layout a display of models telling the story of model railways from their early beginnings. 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Pacific231G