Black side-lamps for brake vans on unfitted freights

[Crepello]

I'd like to replicate these in N-gauge but would appreciate some information on dimensions etc.  I think they showed a white light to the front (and a red to the rear), so the loco crew could check the train was complete. Were they used on both sides of the brake van at once? Did the brake van have a rear lamp in the usual position too?

Thanks in anticipation.

[Mark Saunders]

Brake van on rear of an unfitted or part fitted train would show two side lamps one on each side of the rear brackets, with white lights facing forward and red to the rear with a tail lamp as normal a fully fitted train would only have a tail lamp!

 

The painted colour of the lamps can be either black or white!

 

Mark Saunders

[The Johnster]

The side lamps were carried on part or un- fitted freight trains and shone a white light forward so that the loco crew could check that the train was complete at night.  They were carried on both sides of the van at once, normally on the rear balcony brackets where the guard was afforded some protection from the wind when running at speed, but this was not a hard and fast rule and on 25mph maximum class K or 9 trains they might well be on the front balcony's brackets, especially where trains changed direction.  The 'normal' display while the train was running was thus of 3 red lights to the rear in an upside down triangle formation, but not always, as follows.

 

They shone a red to the rear as stated, but this was in the form of a removable slide-in shade that the guard removed from the side adjacent to a running line if his train was in a loop, refuge siding, or reception/departure road, or on a slow or goods line adjacent to a fast running line that traffic might overtake on.  This was to re-assure the drivers of such trains that they were not about to collide with the rear of a freight train travelling perhaps 60mph slower than them, especially on curves where perspective can play nasty tricks with you at night!  Thus the display would be of 2 red lights, the main tail lamp and the side lamp on the side of the train away from the faster line, and a white on the side closest to it.  There was a slide-in on one side of the lamp to store the shade in, but when you were in a loop or siding you just left it sticking out the top of the main slide-in!

 

On the GWR/BR (W), the white light was similarly displayed to the rear on 'relief' lines even when they were separated from the faster running line by another running line in the opposite direction.

 

They were painted black or white, and about the same dimensions as the normal head and tall lamps, and used the same paraffin reservoirs and burners.  They fitted differently to the brackets, though, a slot being provided either side of the lamp.  The handle was oriented the other way around as well.  In an emergency in which the guard wishes to draw the attention of the loco crew to have the train stopped, he can reverse the lamps so that they show a red light forward; if the loco crew don't notice, the next signal box or passing train will!  If the emergency is more serious than this, you have plenty else to worry about...

 

There seems to have been no rhyme or reason to black or white painting in BR days, but I have a general impression that there were more black painted ones towards the end of the brake van period.  I believe GW ones may have been red painted.  Fully fitted freight trains carried a single tail lamp without the side lamps, as did all other traffic above Class C or 6, and of course still do!

Edited September 1, 2018 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

Just a quick addition; brake van or any tail lamps are lit during the hours of darkness, during Fog or Falling Snow and other conditions of poor visibility, and where they are required to be lit in tunnels, IIRC those over 440 yards long but I am happy to be corrected on this point!

[davetheroad]

Maybe a daft question but these brake van lamps were lit at night but what about during the day, were the 2 side fitted lamps mounted on the brackets all the time or only when needed?

[Mark Saunders]

Maybe a daft question but these brake van lamps were lit at night but what about during the day, were the 2 side fitted lamps mounted on the brackets all the time or only when needed?

 

Lamps were only displayed when required if there was more than one brake van on a train these would only be displayed on the one at the rear of the train!

[The Johnster]

Yes, the rear brake van only, any others in the train are simply vehicles in the train.  The lamps, all 3, are displayed all the time but not necessarily lit in daylight.  They are stowed on brackets inside the van when they are not in use.

 

The paraffin reservoir was designed to provide enough fuel for the lamp to burn for 24 hours if it was properly trimmed, and the brake van carried a reserve of paraffin, usually in an old milk bottle.  Guards always carried matches, even if they didn't smoke, and some went to considerable trouble to keep them dry, with varying degrees of success.

 

All trains, whatever class, carry a tail lamp as an indication to signalmen that the train is complete and no vehicles have been left in the section.  Lamps are not required for movements within yards or shunting movements within 'station limits', the term for the piece of railway between a signal box's outermost home signal and most advance starter plus a 'limit of shunt' into the section.

Edited September 2, 2018 by The Johnster

[davetheroad]

Thanks, so fitting 3 lamps to each brake van is what it will be.

[The Johnster]

Thanks, so fitting 3 lamps to each brake van is what it will be.

 

Except for fully fitted trains; they only need the tail lamp.

[davetheroad]

Except for fully fitted trains; they only need the tail lamp.

 

I only appear to have one fully fitted, the milk train and that has a StoveR 3 from the rear so a single lamp on the rear tank?. Apart from the coal train my freights are part fitted. Question, when does a unfitted become a part fitted? My 'long' freights are 36 wagons, mediums about 24 and shorts about 12.

 

I presume you can stick a fitted brake van on an unfitted train?

[The Johnster]

Yes, a single lamp on the rear tank for the milk train.

 

The length of a train has no bearing on it's fittedness or otherwise; an unfitted freight train has no wagons with automatic (usually vacuum on steam age layouts) brakes that can be operated by the driver from the locomotive cab.  In BR days it runs as Class J or K, later 9, and is restricted to 25mph; it has a brake van at the rear with 3 lamps in which a guard rides so as to apply the brake in the van when this assistance is required.  A part-fitted train has a 'fitted head' of wagons with automatic brakes connected to the loco and capable of being operated by the driver from the cab, but behind these wagons there are unfitted wagons, with of course a brake van ditto the above.  These run as different Classes according to the percentage of wagons with automatic brakes.

 

A fully fitted freight train has all the vehicles fitted with an automatic brake connected to the loco and capable of being worked by the driver in the cab; for steam age operation it needs a brake van but only needs a single tail lamp on the last vehicle.  2 fitted vehicles on which the brakes are working may be marshalled behind the van, which of course must also be fitted or at least  piped through (so you can connect the brake system at each end with the hoses but without actual automatic brakes on the vehicle).  Vans were normally 'piped through' rather than fitted as they had a guard in them to operate the handbrake.

 

A fitted, or piped, brake van can be used on an unfitted or part fitted train, but of course is more likely to be used in a fitted one.  Vans came in unfitted, grey painted, piped only, vacuum fitted, air fitted, and dual fitted, the latter mostly being used on workings where the train had to be propelled for a distance, so that a competent person was aboard the leading vehicle of the train maybe 60 wagons away from the driver and could apply the brake in an emergency.  The majority of vans were unfitted or piped only.  Piped only vehicles are indicated by a white painted vacuum pipe instead of red; as well as the brake van, air braked vehicles often had through pipes so that they could be marshalled inside the fitted head or a fully fitted train.  At least two vehicles behind them must have the brakes in working condition, tested by the guard or other competent person before the train departs and the 'load slip', signed by the guard and his legal responsibility, is handed by him personally to the driver.

 

After 1969, a single manning agreement for loco crew allowed brake vans to be dispensed with on fully fitted trains, and the guard rode in the rear cab of the loco.

 

Conversely, an unfitted grey liveried van can be used on a fully fitted train, but it runs as a part fitted train with 3 tail lamps if this happens.  A bauxite liveried van, even with only piped fitting, is ok though as the guard can apply the automatic brake in the van.

 

If you are modelling BR steam era, look at the liveries of your wagons.  The bauxite, fitted, ones should be marshalled next to the loco except for local work, with the grey, unfitted, ones at the rear, with the van bringing up the actual rear of course.  If there are any unfitted, grey, vehicles in the train, the brake van must carry 3 lamps.  If you are modelling late LMS (you mentioned a Stove R for your milk train), some fitted wagons or vans may be in LMS (or other companies') grey livery as their version of the bauxite fitted livery was introduced late.  'XP' branding indicates a vehicle capable of being marshalled in a passenger train, and any such vehicles will be fully fitted with a vacuum brake, not to mention screw couplings and passenger rated buffers.

 

Strictly speaking, a milk train is not freight, it is passenger rated NPCCS like a parcels train, but we are splitting hairs a bit now for your purposes.

 

Sometimes there's more to things than meets the eye!

Edited September 2, 2018 by The Johnster

[BR60103]

It may not have been emphasized above, but there must not be a tail lamp on any but the last vehicle in a train. This lets the signalman or fireman know that the train is complete. (I know, some idiot glued a lamp on the end of the brake-third.)

exception being special lamps on slip coaches.

[davetheroad]

It may not have been emphasized above, but there must not be a tail lamp on any but the last vehicle in a train. This lets the signalman or fireman know that the train is complete. (I know, some idiot glued a lamp on the end of the brake-third.)

exception being special lamps on slip coaches.

 

It would not be idiotic if that brake third was always going to be on the rear of a train. It would not be correct but not idiotic if that brake third was in the middle of a train because who wants to fit detachable tiny lamps to coaches? After all it is a model railway, there are no safety issues involved!.

[31A]

It would not be idiotic if that brake third was always going to be on the rear of a train. It would not be correct but not idiotic if that brake third was in the middle of a train because who wants to fit detachable tiny lamps to coaches? After all it is a model railway, there are no safety issues involved!.

 

Well I do!  To me nothing looks worse than tail lamps at the front or in the middle of the train.

[Right Away]

How far we should go in our strive to emulate realism on our home layouts is governed by what we are prepared to accept.

 

Slightly incorrect working railway practices in miniature are fine as long as they can satisfy or be ignored by the critical eye of the owner; after all, it's their railway.

 

Having said that, the mere carrying of a tail lamp can actually transform the appearance of the last vehicle, denoting that the train is in fact entire. The carrying of head lamps/discs also conveys a strong impression of realism to the observer.

 

One approach to the carrying of tail lamps is to fit them to certain coaches and wagons only, utilising these only at the rear when required. It can mean "doubling up" on certain items of stock however.

With regard to head lamps, some lamp irons are small enough to accept a drilled lamp to facilitate changing.

As light engines were also required to carry a tail lamp, a removable one would be useful. If one can encourage SR discs to stay put with Tacky Wax or Blu-Tak, fine, the alternative is to be "stuck" with a permanent headcode.

 

Modellers of the modern era, luckily have it quite easy in these respects.

[TheSignalEngineer]

For through trains it is fairly simple to have a number of brake vans fitted with tail lamps but no coupling at one end. I have about six at the moment. Terminating trains are a bit different, but I have a hidden siding where it one with couplings at both ends can be 'lost' during shunting then re-emerge the other way round if necessary.

 

Likewise I have some passenger coaches with tail lamps which are swapped around in the hidden sidings as necessary. My other option is a NPCCS vehicle added to the train. one I have is a Lima 42' CCT which has been flush glazed, fitted with Bachmann LMS bogies, Dave Franks buffers / pipes  and dummy screw coupling / tail lamp at one end. 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129666-erics-chop-shop-kit-and-rtr-bashing-lima-lms-42ft-van/&do=findComment&comment=3009586

[Crepello]

Thank you chaps for the comprehensive answers to my enquiry. 

[Poor Old Bruce]

At some time in the 1960s (IIRC) up to ten vehicles were allowed to be marshalled behind the brake van of a fully fitted train with the proviso that the vacuum brake was functional on at least the last three vehicles. Tail lamp on the last vehicle of course.

[Stalwart]

Very interesting reading this! I now realise I have a couple of semi-fitted freight trains with only a single central lamp on the Guards Van. Does anyone have a recommendation as to where to obtain realistic 'side lamps' from in OO suitable for a mid sixties based WR layout please?

[The Johnster]

You can, of course, have a whole train of 'pool' brake vans, a not uncommon prototype occurrence.  They tended to accumulate at the larger yards and balancing workings, in the WTT on Fridays or over weekends or specials 'as required' were needed to re-distribute them to where they were in short supply.  20ton vans can run at up to 60mph, 16 tonners 45; the train, of course, always runs at the speed of the slowest vehicle.

[The Johnster]

Very interesting reading this! I now realise I have a couple of semi-fitted freight trains with only a single central lamp on the Guards Van. Does anyone have a recommendation as to where to obtain realistic 'side lamps' from in OO suitable for a mid sixties based WR layout please?

Modelu do very good ones, but you have to paint them and put the lenses in yourself.  They have slots to accept brackets, and there are proper brackets on the Oxford vans, though GW toads were out of use by the mid 60s.  If you are drilling holes in the veranda uprights for brackets on the BR standard and Midland vans appropriate to this period, you will need to put something fairly solid behind them, piece of batten or something, that can be drilled into; you can then mount or demount the lamps as necessary and, as there are two slots in the Modelus, reverse them if you want for propelling moves.

 

Springside make sides as well, and these are fine if you can accept permanent fixing; that said, I've drilled holes in the bottoms of mine to place them on brackets made out of no.13 staples.  Not done this with sides, though; all my sides are Modelu.

 

Modelus are probably in all fairness not designed for the sort of constant rough handling I give them and are a bit delicate, so take care with them.  I am attempting to design a 'lamp handling tweezers' for them.  

[Stalwart]

Thanks Johnster.

[davetheroad]

Putting tail lamps  on my Express trains was easy, I have 2 express trains and just fitted Springside tail lamps to one brake 2nd coach on each. there is also a full brake with lamp fitted for variety. They do make the train look so much better.

 

The loco hauled branch passenger is the problem. It is a 3 coach non corridor brake 3rd/composite/brake 3rd. It arrives from the fiddle yard with the lamp on the rear, the loco runs around and turns on the turntable, then reversing onto the front of the train, with a tail lamp nice and visible, at the front. - aargh

[PatB]

It does strike me that using correct lamp arrangements represents another method of increasing operating interest, particularly on small layouts with otherwise limited potential. Not for everyone, of course, but something which can be "correct" regardless of, for example, space constraints forcing compromise elsewhere.

[Phil Bullock]

Coming back to this thread as just doing some brake vans for the Waterston-Albion tanks.

 

When these trains ran via Worcester - if my research is correct - they ran with a van at each end of a rake of Gulf 100t tanks. The route was via Stourbridge to a run round at Wednesfield to take the south facing chord on to the BNS - Wolves main line and arrival at Albion facing south.

 

So the rear van just carries a single white lamp .... fully fitted AB train. But were the vans - presumably required at the run round - air brake fitted or just through air piped? Have transfers for both......

 

Did @The Johnster work these trains perhaps?

Edited January 7, 2021 by Phil Bullock