Loading of wagons.

[JZ]

A quick question regards wagon loading, particularly bolster wagons. I don't like seeing trains of empty wagons, so I am working my way through my opens and fitting suitable loads. So, with said bolster wagon, would it be loaded as A:

This fits within the loading guage, but the upper pipe is above the posts on the wagon.

 

Or B:

All pipes within the height of the post.

 

In either case the pipes would be chained.

[The Bigbee Line]

Check out pictures of the real thing.

[Fat Controller]

To add to Ernie's comments, here's a link to one of the very useful booklets held by the Borrowmere group:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20426_Issue.pdf

[JDW]

To add to Ernie's comments, here's a link to one of the very useful booklets held by the Borrowmere group:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20426_Issue.pdf

 

That looks quite interesting, thanks, I'll have a read myself when I have more time.  As far as the OP's question goes, the three layers of pipes in a triangle looks wrong to me, too tall and top heavy, and generally I find that if something doesn't look right, it often isn't.  I could be completely wrong though!!

[Steamport Southport]

Would they not just use one of the many Tube or Pipe wagons designed for carrying them?

 

Previous thread here.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43656-parkside-br-tube-wagon-loading-information/

 

 

 

Jason

[Fat Controller]

Would they not just use one of the many Tube or Pipe wagons designed for carrying them?

 

Previous thread here.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43656-parkside-br-tube-wagon-loading-information/

 

 

 

Jason

'Tubes' were used for drawn smaller-diameter tubes, usually up to about 6" diameter. 'Pipes' were specifically designed to carry larger-diameter cast iron pipes.

When a national gas grid was started in the late 1960s/early 1970s, bogie bolster wagons were modified, with high stanchions and shaped 'saddles', to carry the hundreds of miles of pipes required. Thes wagons were also used to carry pipes for the burgeoning offshore oil and gas installations

[The Johnster]

You should have a few empty wagons about the layout as well, Jules.  Real wagons were not loaded all the time, and those in circuit working would often work back empty to their loading point as complete trains; same goes for block traffic like coal of course.  General merchandise wagons would be loaded and earning their keep most of the time in a perfect world, but the world isn't perfect, especially the steam era BR world, and in any case some wagons will be needed at other places to be loaded with traffic, so will be dispatched empty as a matter of urgency. This means that your local yard may run short of wagons to load and have to order some empties to deal with traffic despite having had plenty a couple of days earlier.  Empty 5 plank opens may well have a folded up tarp inside on the floor.

 

My South Wales BLT serves a mining village which produces little but coal, and relies on it's railway for most of it's needs as the local roads are not up to much in the 1950s.  Such general merchandise as comes in in open wagons, or on flats, for mileage, collection, or delivery, is collected/delivered during the day, and mostly the wagons go back out empty with the next day's pickup.  Control may want one elsewhere quickly and it occasionally goes out attached to a passenger train as tail traffic if it's XP rated.  I have an imaginary offstage cold store to generate meat traffic in insulated or refrigerated vans, but these are vans and you can't see if they are loaded or not!

 

Containers serve the general goods depot and the cold store, and conflats turn up loaded with them, to return empty or to take empty ones back. so sometimes empty conflats turn up to collect empty containers required for loading somewhere else as well.  

My coal train is balanced by an empty coal train inwards; work at the pit would soon come to a stop if it wasn't for a constant supply of empties!  Very few South Wales pits had space for stockpiles of coal at the surface, so everything that was brought to the surface had to be screened, washed, loaded, and taken out as soon as possible to make room for empties.  

 

In short, while it looks as though the wagons are not earning their keep, the railway couldn't have run without empties!

[PatB]

Whilst I'm not experienced in loading rail wagons, I've had some professional involvement with the loading of road vehicles. In general, there's no inherent reason why a properly secured load that is within gauge needs to fit within the confines of any fixed parts of the vehicle (sides, bolsters etc.). However, that phrase "properly secured" is key and certain load arrangements  may make it impossible or, at least, impractical to achieve satisfactorily. Long, straight, smoothish things, like the pipes illustrated, for example, whilst easy to secure laterally by chaining them down, regardless of whether they're within the bolsters or not, might be difficult to clamp sufficiently tightly to prevent movement when subjected to longitudinal shocks, such as are likely in a loose-coupled train. The bigger the stack, the harder it is to ensure that every piece of the load is adequately secured.

[JZ]

Thanks for all the replies, the Borrowmere leaflet particularly useful.

You should have a few empty wagons about the layout as well, Jules.  Real wagons were not loaded all the time, and those in circuit working would often work back empty to their loading point as complete trains;

I'm aiming for about 75% of the open wagons loaded. General merchandise wagons may only travel a few miles empty, from where they were unloaded to where the next load was. With a layout set on the edge of the Somerset Coalfield, my coal wagons are 50/50 loaded/empty.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

My first reaction was 'looks overloaded'. It all depends on the material of which the load is made of course. But if that ls cast iron or steel, and the wall thickness of the model pipe is 1mm, then you are looking at circa 7 tons per pipe, and three would be the maximum.

 

With the lading sorted out to conform to the wagon capacity, then there's the considerations Pat B mentions for securing, to resist movement.

[kevinlms]

My first reaction was 'looks overloaded'. It all depends on the material of which the load is made of course. But if that ls cast iron or steel, and the wall thickness of the model pipe is 1mm, then you are looking at circa 7 tons per pipe, and three would be the maximum.

 

With the lading sorted out to conform to the wagon capacity, then there's the considerations Pat B mentions for securing, to resist movement.

But how much does a large extruded plastic pipe weigh?

[JeremyC]

You could look out for a copy of 'British Railways Wagons Their Loads and Loading (British Railways Collection)' by Brian Grant and Bill Taylor. Part 1 gives a lot of details and photos of unusual loads including pipes and how they're secured.

Edited September 10, 2018 by JeremyC

[DCB]

To add to Ernie's comments, here's a link to one of the very useful booklets held by the Borrowmere group:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20426_Issue.pdf

Fantastic resource. I have added a link to it to my desktop

 

A quick question regards wagon loading, particularly bolster wagons. I don't like seeing trains of empty wagons, so I am working my way through my opens and fitting suitable loads. So, with said bolster wagon, would it be loaded as A:

 

This fits within the loading guage, but the upper pipe is above the posts on the wagon.

 

Or B:

 

All pipes within the height of the post.

 

Looks like B as A would be in excess of 11ft listed as the max in BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR2042.   The pipes look too heavy to be loaded 5 to a 12T (?) wagon as they would likely be steel with quite a hefty wall thickness in steam and wagon-load traffic  days.

Empties vs fulls is entirely dependent of operating habits.  Coal could well be bang on 50/50 at the colliery but mine has occasional back loads of timber pit props.

If sidings faced the terminus and most traffic was incoming a train could arrive at a terminus almost completely empty. or vice versa.   Empties worked in to collect traffic, especially livestock, vehicles etc as well as fulls arriving which needed emptying and taking away.   Vans and containers look much the same empty as full. I run a full coal train clockwise and empties anticlockwise. a friend fills and empties his coals every trip, it takes all sorts.

[JZ]

The pipes look too heavy to be loaded 5 to a 12T (?) wagon as they would likely be steel with quite a hefty wall thickness in steam and wagon-load traffic  days. 

Going to stick to 5 as it 'looks right'. By the way, it's a 22T wagon.

 

I run a full coal train clockwise and empties anticlockwise. a friend fills and empties his coals every trip, it takes all sorts.

I do the same as you. Generally, loaded ones are kit-built so I can add weight without it showing an empties are RTR.

[JZ]

You could look out for a copy of 'British Railways Wagons Their Loads and Loading (British Railways Collection)' by Brian Grant and Bill Taylor. Part 1 gives a lot of details and photos of unusual loads including pipes and how they're secured.

I do have it somewhere, but cannot find the bleedin' thing at the moment.

[sharris]

But how much does a large extruded plastic pipe weigh?

 

An approximate calculation...

 

Assuming the load is about 20' long, and seeing that 3 tubes fit within the stanchions, each must be somewhere around 2'6 in diameter, and that the 1mm? wall thickness of the styrene tube scales up to about 3", that gives a volume of material of approximately 39 cubic feet, which is conveniently very close to 1 cubic metre in new money. The density of polystyrene is 1.04g/cubic cm, which means each polystyrene tube would weigh about 1 tonne in real life.

 

I suspect in reality the wall thickness would be more likely to be around 1-1.5cm so a scaled up plastic pipe would be nowhere near a tonne - somewhere around 150-200kg. 

[JZ]

Just found an online calculator for metals. Given that the tubes are 100x9.5 with a wall thickness of 0.7mm, it comes out at 6722Kg per tube, or 33609Kg for 5 for steel. If we say it represented 1" wall steel tube, it now comes out as 16671Kg or 3334Kg each, well within the load capabilities of the wagon. If anyone else is interested in the calculator, it can be found here:  https://www.onealsteel.com/calculators.html

[Guy Rixon]

If the model pipes really do represent steel tubes with 2" thick walls then you need a sign on the wagon boasting about how it's being exported to Iraq. 

[The Johnster]

If the model pipes really do represent steel tubes with 2" thick walls then you need a sign on the wagon boasting about how it's being exported to Iraq. 

 

Now, now, we'll have none of that supergun talk here, these are local pipes for local people.  Tell me, are you at all local?

 

We didn't burn him...