Eurostar operations to possibly stop after Brexit

[Andy Hayter]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/eurostar-will-not-run-if-there-is-a-no-deal-brexit-french-europe-minister-warns/ar-BBNhmQ3?ocid=spartanntp

 

 

[woodenhead]

Careful, this is politics.

 

There may be a legal argument about whether trains and planes can move across borders should be exit without an agreement but this could descend into chaos on this forum.

[Nearholmer]

It struck me as we were using it recently that the Eurostar passport checking system could get mangled-up in Brexit, and one of the French border policemen was making cracks with us about having to use 'the other queue next year', but I have a feeling that it is the subject of a special bilateral agreement all of its own ...... personally I read this as a bit of sabre-rattling.

 

To make a dodgily un-PC quip: Frog in the Channel; continent cut off.

[chrisf]

SNCF is the majority shareholder in Eurostar and needs the money.  Stop worrying.

 

Chris

[Pete the Elaner]

The article also said that planes would be grounded without a Brexit agreement. What a load of rubbish.

UAE have no special EU agreement so does this mean that are Etihad & Emirates are currently banned from flying into EU countries? Of course not.

[EddieB]

Nouveaux faux?

[EddieB]

To make a dodgily un-PC quip: Frog in the Channel; continent cut off.

But what about the incontinent?  Will they still be able to go to Bognor Regis, as before?

[Nearholmer]

Frinton, surely.

[phil-b259]

The article also said that planes would be grounded without a Brexit agreement. What a load of rubbish.

UAE have no special EU agreement so does this mean that are Etihad & Emirates are currently banned from flying into EU countries? Of course not.

 

The point is that certain decisions involving airline safety have been ceded to Brussels for many years now and are taken on an EU wide basis. At the most basic level this means that certain airlines with bad safety records or who cannot demonstrate compliance with certain standards are not permitted to fly within EU airspace https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/safety/air-ban/search_en

 

However even if they don't appear on the 'banned' list, non EU carriers like Emirates need to get specific approval to use EU airspace. This can only be done if a suitable framework is put in place which reassures the EU that all its regulations are being complied with (as exists for the USA, etc - the EU doesn't simply roll over and say yes because its the USA asking, there has to be all sorts of work done behind the scenes to show that regulation X imposed by the US authorities is to the same standard as regulation Y in the EU, etc).

 

But theoretically if the UK leaves the EU in a 'no deal' situation then by definition of it being a 'no deal' situation, that framework of reciprocal recognition won't exist and as such its theoretically that air travel would be seriously disrupted as by the strictest letter of the law than technically I believe the EU could refuse access to its airspace by all flights from the UK.

 

Now as you say, nobody believes that either the UK or the EU would let things get that bad, but certainly without a deal being struck then the processing of passports and enforcement of customs regulations could certainly throw a massive spanner in the works resulting in lengthy queues at passport control etc. Given the small size of the Eurostar terminal at St Pancras then I can well imagine Eurostar are worried.

Edited September 14, 2018 by phil-b259

[Pete the Elaner]

The point is that certain decisions involving airline safety have been ceded to Brussels for many years now and are taken on an EU wide basis. At the most basic level this means that certain airlines with bad safety records or who cannot demonstrate compliance with certain standards are not permitted to fly within EU airspace https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/safety/air-ban/search_en

 

However even if they don't appear on the 'banned' list, non EU carriers like Emirates need to get specific approval to use EU airspace. This can only be done if a suitable framework is put in place which reassures the EU that all its regulations are being complied with (as exists for the USA, etc - the EU doesn't simply roll over and say yes because its the USA asking, there has to be all sorts of work done behind the scenes to show that regulation X imposed by the US authorities is to the same standard as regulation Y in the EU, etc).

 

But theoretically if the UK leaves the EU in a 'no deal' situation then by definition of it being a 'no deal' situation, that framework of reciprocal recognition won't exist and as such its theoretically that air travel would be seriously disrupted as by the strictest letter of the law than technically I believe the EU could refuse access to its airspace by all flights from the UK.

 

Now as you say, nobody believes that either the UK or the EU would let things get that bad, but certainly without a deal being struck then the processing of passports and enforcement of customs regulations could certainly throw a massive spanner in the works resulting in lengthy queues at passport control etc. Given the small size of the Eurostar terminal at St Pancras then I can well imagine Eurostar are worried.

That sounds like a much more accurate argument than the news statement of "UK planes will be grounded", which is media spin at its best.

[Fenman]

The article also said that planes would be grounded without a Brexit agreement. What a load of rubbish.

UAE have no special EU agreement so does this mean that are Etihad & Emirates are currently banned from flying into EU countries? Of course not.

Every country (or group of countries) in the world* has legal agreements in place that govern air travel. In some cases these even restrict the number of flights between countries (Australia and Qatar, for instance), in others they usually just specify the technical standards that any airline must achieve (any airline flying into the US, for instance). And yes, the UAE is part of that legal system too.

 

We have delegated most of this to the EU, but we have now decided to withdraw from that. So, all the legal agreements the EU has made on our behalf will no longer apply to us.

 

I fail to see how this is “Project Fear”, rather than a simple recognition of the legal consequences of what we have decided to do (I’m not making any comment here about the merits or otherwise of Brexit). Simply pretending that everything will carry on as normal after Brexit is utter foolishness.

 

We have made a decision: now we need to accept the consequences and deal with them, not pretend that in our fantasy future if we do nothing then everything will be the best of all possible outcomes.

 

Paul

 

* I did wonder if somewhere like, say, North Korea might be an exception, but they have a bilateral deal with at least China. But I admit I haven’t checked every single country, so it’s possible that some remote Pacific island, say, is an exception.

[phil-b259]

That sounds like a much more accurate argument than the news statement of "UK planes will be grounded", which is media spin at its best.

 

It might well being hyped up by the media as a scare story BUT as with many things Brexit, if you actually check out the facts then technically they are being truthful. Just because something is 'unlikely' is not the same as it being 'impossible'..... particularly with the current Tory infighting (and quite frankly disgusting arrogance being displayed to the EU by messes, Mog, Johnson, Davies etc)

Edited September 14, 2018 by phil-b259

[Andy Y]

Already posts have had to be removed that go too far into the politics of Brexit and opinions of such.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Odd how this only seems to have an impact on Eurostar, and not on the shuttle services (or the Enterprise cross border services between Belfast and Dublin). Is this just bad reporting and/or grandstanding by the French? I suppose it's one way to stop the brain drain from Paris to London.......

[Nearholmer]

I still wonder whether the Eurostar thing is actually inaccurate, in that it is all subject to special agreements about passports being checked in the departure country, bits of 'territory' at the stations being legally in the destination country etc, which are agreements between two countries (France and Britain), rather than 'EU agreements' as such, I am pretty sure.

 

Having EU and not-EU passport queues is a subtly different thing ..... its the principle of the way that it operates that I'm talking about.

 

I wonder if the politician concerned was 'broad brushing' or 'grandstanding', neither of which would be out of character for politicians of most nations. Or, was misreported.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Nearholmer

[woodenhead]

There is of course the argument that you spell out the worst case scenario - the world will explode and lead on it for weeks or months then you get to the big day and nothing on that scale actually happens, the world keeps spinning, people can still see social media and taxes still get collected.

 

Remember when the world was going to end as we know it at 00:00:00.000001 1/1/2000, everybody partied like it was 1999 and the next morning it was 2000 and all people had were headaches, well actually some of us were a little richer as I got a large bonus for working that night combating Y2k.

[Fat Controller]

Odd how this only seems to have an impact on Eurostar, and not on the shuttle services (or the Enterprise cross border services between Belfast and Dublin). Is this just bad reporting and/or grandstanding by the French? I suppose it's one way to stop the brain drain from Paris to London.......

Treaty of Canterbury.

[Junctionmad]

Odd how this only seems to have an impact on Eurostar, and not on the shuttle services (or the Enterprise cross border services between Belfast and Dublin). Is this just bad reporting and/or grandstanding by the French? I suppose it's one way to stop the brain drain from Paris to London.......

 

the travel between  Dublin and Belfast by train is covered under the common travel area( CTA) which predates the EU. but in fact travellers were subject to checks on that train ( mainly customs ) from time to time until the single European Act removed that 

[Broadway Clive]

The reality is that a 'No deal Brexit' will actually have many small transitional deals to overcome regulatory difficulties like this that are patently in the interests of both sides. Any failures to do so would not reflect well on those on both sides whose job it is to deal with these things and the reputational damage to authorities, governments  and the EU commission would ensure a swift resolution.

[pH]

Remember when the world was going to end as we know it at 00:00:00.000001 1/1/2000, everybody partied like it was 1999 and the next morning it was 2000 and all people had were headaches,

well actually some of us were a little richer as I got a large bonus for working that night combating Y2k.

Yes, I remember how the world "as we knew it" would have been seriously affected at that date and time if many, many people had not spent several years (not New Year's Eve) and significant amounts of money ensuring that it wouldn't be. (The organisation I worked for were looking at the effects on our operations of Y2K at least 5 years in advance.)

 

In that case, the precise event was known well in advance, and could be planned for. In the case of Brexit, the details of the situation at midnight on the day of leaving have not yet been defined. The situation will definitely be different, but the ways in which it will be different are not yet known, so planning for the changes needed is difficult if not impossible.

 

Someone(!) has to decide what the destination looks like before people can start detailed planning on how to get there.

Edited September 14, 2018 by pH

[Neil]

Already posts have had to be removed that go too far into the politics of Brexit and opinions of such.

 

Though it's a shame that there has been the need to do this I suppose it illustrates what a hot topic Brexit is and how bitterly it has divided opinions. I'd also like to say thanks Andy for making the effort to let the debate continue.

 

Odd how this only seems to have an impact on Eurostar, and not on the shuttle services (or the Enterprise cross border services between Belfast and Dublin). Is this just bad reporting and/or grandstanding by the French? I suppose it's one way to stop the brain drain from Paris to London.......

 

I'll admit to not thinking of these parallel services, I wonder if ferries will be affected too. I also wonder if Eurostar was used as shorthand for all rail services.

 

There is of course the argument that you spell out the worst case scenario - the world will explode and lead on it for weeks or months then you get to the big day and nothing on that scale actually happens, the world keeps spinning, people can still see social media and taxes still get collected.

 

Remember when the world was going to end as we know it at 00:00:00.000001 1/1/2000, everybody partied like it was 1999 and the next morning it was 2000 and all people had were headaches, well actually some of us were a little richer as I got a large bonus for working that night combating Y2k.

 

I think some of what's said just highlights the need for agreements and that we can't or shouldn't assume that all will just carry on as before, that some positive action will have to take place. I'm not sure if Y2K is a good parallel to draw, all the fuss about that was to do with the uncertainty around technology working or failing. Unless Brexit is called off there is a certainty that some change will happen and therefore things will be different after.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Neil

[woodenhead]

Yes, I remember how the world "as we knew it" would have been seriously affected at that date and time if many, many people had not spent several years (not New Year's Eve) and significant amounts of money ensuring that it wouldn't be. (The organisation I worked for were looking at the effects on our operations of Y2K at least 5 years in advance.)

 

In that case, the precise event was known well in advance, and could be planned for. In the case of Brexit, the details of the situation at midnight on the day of leaving have not yet been defined. The situation will definitely be different, but the ways in which it will be different are not yet known, so planning for the changes needed is difficult if not impossible.

 

Someone(!) has to decide what the destination looks like before people can start detailed planning on how to get there.

 

Which is why Y2K is a good example, just like Brexit there is a known date and there will be people quietly in the background planning what happens that day should there not be an agreement - whether we as a nation like what we get that day is another question - but the media will have a frenzy now because it sells advertising if people are reading their articles and it also feeds an political angle especially if what does happen isn't complete carnage for either side pro or anti Brexit.  

[Edwin_m]

The reality is that a 'No deal Brexit' will actually have many small transitional deals to overcome regulatory difficulties like this that are patently in the interests of both sides. Any failures to do so would not reflect well on those on both sides whose job it is to deal with these things and the reputational damage to authorities, governments  and the EU commission would ensure a swift resolution.

If the government continues to expect that a wide-ranging deal will be done covering these things, but can't agree either internally or with the EU about the details of such a deal, then no wider deal will be done.  By the time people realise and agree that it's too late for a wider deal, there may be little time left to do all the smaller deals or other arranagements needed for day-to-day running of various things. 

 

The big difference from Y2K is that then it was basically about technology and each technology company had a clear responsibility to sort it out without much need for governments to get involved.  This is about people and politics and until the high-level politics is sorted nobody can address the working issues. 

[Legend]

Always said it was a mistake bringing the Channel Tunnel up in France . It should have gone to Jersey instead.

 

Like most things with Brexit there are possibly elements of truth in this , but something will be sorted out .   Brexit will be causing us to run out of water next!

[Talltim]

There is of course the argument that you spell out the worst case scenario - the world will explode and lead on it for weeks or months then you get to the big day and nothing on that scale actually happens, the world keeps spinning, people can still see social media and taxes still get collected.

 

Remember when the world was going to end as we know it at 00:00:00.000001 1/1/2000, everybody partied like it was 1999 and the next morning it was 2000 and all people had were headaches, well actually some of us were a little richer as I got a large bonus for working that night combating Y2k.

It kept spinning because a lot of people did a lot of work for several years to get rid of potential problems.