Mystery Train; this time with visual aid!

[Mallard60022]

My sincere apologies for not posting this picture yesterday..................................................

I would like to try and identify this working at Halwill (that is where I was told this was taken). It is (could be?) a very interesting train if you look closely. Elsewhere I have discussed the stock and probably got it identified. Also elsewhere there has been speculation as to the nature of the working and I have my own ideas. What would be great would be to find someone that has seen this pic and actually knows what it was all about. I put the date at around 1959 - 1960 and the loco looks ex works so that could be a clue to the approximate date. It was a 72A loco by May1960.

I can not credit the picture as It was posted on a thread of mine by a friend, some time back.

Many thanks and again, apologies for the 'forgot the picture' post yesterday. My only excuse is my increasing tendency to brain fog actions.

Phil

[Oldddudders]

Certainly Halwill. Just beyond the last vehicle we can see something berthed in one of the sidings installed for D-Day preparations.

 

No clever suggestions here, Phil. About that time there were several instances of flooding that affected running on the GWR route north of Exeter, but the season in the picture looks balmy, so I think that unlikely. From 1960 the Royal Cornwall County Show was held at Wadebridge, but that hardly explains unusual passenger rolling stock.

 

Since some smart person was on hand to snap this formation, might they have shared news of their sighting with Trains Illustrated or the Railway Observer?

[Wickham Green]

I FULLY AGREE - it's a mystery ................... looks like a ( steel- sheeted ? ) Gresley artic twin behind the GUV - but are the other coaches ( teak ) Gresleys too ? .................... without the necessary sources in front of me I'd speculate that the loco is fresh from the works after receiving new cylinders and ( part, at least ) frames - that might help tie down the date. 

[Mallard60022]

I've got TI for 1960/1/2 and I can't remember any mention of this in them. Maybe another look?  Thanks Dudds, any idea where the RO Archive exists>

Phil

Edited September 24, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Oldddudders]

I've got TI for 1960/1/2 and I can't remember any mention of this in them. Maybe another look?  Thanks Dudds, any idea where the RO Archive exists>

Phil

Several RMweb luminaries seem to hold multiple copies. ChrisF comes to mind.

[Mallard60022]

I FULLY AGREE - it's a mystery ................... looks like a ( steel- sheeted ? ) Gresley artic twin behind the GUV - but are the other coaches ( teak ) Gresleys too ? .................... without the necessary sources in front of me I'd speculate that the loco is fresh from the works after receiving new cylinders and ( part, at least ) frames - that might help tie down the date. 

Yup, well noted for the Artics and they are Steel sided. I though the B & C two were Bulleids but someone else suggested they too were Gresleys (and then another trusted friend said there is no beading) and the coach obscured is also Gresley; I'm not so sure about those! Could be but I'm not too fussed about those coaches, but the Artic twin is a little project that might just happen! It is vaguely possible that as it is five coaches and if they are all Gresleys (not the GUV of course), this could be a borrowed set from Exmouth or Tipton St Johns where the Cleethorpes ER sets were stabled over the week between their weekend trips in the summers of 1960/1/2. Otherwise it is some sort of excursion/holiday extra to/from the midlands/east midlands/Notts/South Yorkshire area.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Several RMweb luminaries seem to hold multiple copies. ChrisF comes to mind.

In which geographical direction is that train moving Dudds? To or from Padstow?

Several RMweb luminaries seem to hold multiple copies. ChrisF comes to mind.

I have not seen any posts from CF recently. I hope he is OK?

P

[Oldddudders]

In which geographical direction is that train moving Dudds? To or from Padstow?

I have not seen any posts from CF recently. I hope he is OK?

P

ChrisF posts most days on Early Risers. The train is in the Down direction, approaching the level crossing.

[Oldddudders]

I did wonder if the photo might have been by Peter Coster, of whom I suspect you wot, as he has a number of Halwill colour pics in his Irwell Steaming 60s No.4 album, but his are dated 1962 and 1964. And incidentally in the same series No.7, pics by George Powell, there are three or four of Seaton Junction in August 1961.

[Oldddudders]

A quick Google shows “your” pic is available as a 12 x 8” print from Cornwall Photo Gifts for £11.99. Sadly the only data says it is 1961.

[Mallard60022]

A quick Google shows “your” pic is available as a 12 x 8” print from Cornwall Photo Gifts for £11.99. Sadly the only data says it is 1961.

How the #### do you search for that? Thanks matey.

[Oldddudders]

How the #### do you search for that? Thanks matey.

Do you really mean “how”? I just put Halwill Junction into Google, click on the images heading and up they come in their dozens.

[RichardS]

Notwithstanding the mystery, its actually a good photo. Could it be a troop train. Or possibly as observed a movement to the Wadebridge RCS? I think I have read of RCS specials also traversing the B&W. I'll look out the reference later.

It's always such a frustration that spotters/photographers of the day always used to ignore what the loco was pulling as though railways only existed to allow them to note the loco number or snap a 3/4 view from the front.

[Wickham Green]

It's always such a frustration that spotters/photographers of the day always used to ignore what the loco was pulling as though railways only existed to allow them to note the loco number or snap a 3/4 view from the front.

............ not to mention whatever interesting vehicles might be out of sight at the BACK of the train - or lurking in sidings behind ................ or, for that matter, the wider scene beyond the railway fence that we modellers - umpteen years on - wish to incorporate in our train sets model railways.

 

Anyway, 1853 received new cylinders and front frames in July 1960 so - unless she got a full repaint at some later date - this picture must date from the next few weeks.

[Mallard60022]

Do you really mean “how”? I just put Halwill Junction into Google, click on the images heading and up they come in their dozens.

Simple as that eh. I thought you had scanned the photo in some sort of search.

Thanks matey.

P

[Mallard60022]

............ not to mention whatever interesting vehicles might be out of sight at the BACK of the train - or lurking in sidings behind ................ or, for that matter, the wider scene beyond the railway fence that we modellers - umpteen years on - wish to incorporate in our train sets model railways.

 

Anyway, 1853 received new cylinders and front frames in July 1960 so - unless she got a full repaint at some later date - this picture must date from the next few weeks.

Brilliant. So it is almost certainly summer holiday time.

I have noted that there were Manchester Ilfracombe summer trains but I suspect they would have used MR coaches or MK1s? This train is far more likely to have originated in the east midlands/west or south Yourkshire or it is 'borrowed stock' during lay over (or both of course).

May I ask how you found that loco info?

Phil

Edited September 25, 2018 by Mallard60022

[chrisf]

I have not seen any posts from CF recently. I hope he is OK?

 

 

Fear not, he is fine!  Thank you for your concern.

 

I do not recall seeing this movement recorded in the RO but when I get a minute I will have a rummage.

 

Chris

[Wickham Green]

 

May I ask how you found that loco info?

Phil

Dates of the rebuilds are listed in Peter Swift's mogul book ( eg https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maunsell-Moguls-Peter-Swift-Nov-2012/dp/B00FAUKE92/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537874331&sr=1-8&keywords=maunsell+moguls ) and I'm sure the'ye also in Bradley though that's not the one that came to hand ! [ The curve to the front frames is not very obvious in that head-on photo - but the little cover on the running plate angle above the cylinder is a dead giveaway.)

[JohnR]

The picture is also on the Halwill Jn page of the disused stations website:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halwill/index1.shtml

[bécasse]

I don't possess anything like a full North Cornwall line TT for 1960 but among the few records that I have I note that (at least on Saturdays) there was a departure from Okehampton at 5.51 pm for Padstow and Bude connecting out of the 1.00 pm from London Waterloo - this would have been at Halwill at 6.20 pm which is exactly the time suggested by the shadows of the sun. Photos suggest that this train was normally formed of a pair of Maunsell BSK-BCK 2-sets as far as Halwill where it split.

[Mallard60022]

The picture is also on the Halwill Jn page of the disused stations website:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halwill/index1.shtml

Thanks John, that's a bit of a gem site isn't it. Now there is a bit more info. I am happy to accept that the N was transferred to 72A in June '59, but in conflicts with the info above about cylinder replacement. I still think this would be summer 60. However, the 4th, 5th and 6th coaches are still a bit of a mystery. I think the  4 & 5 are Bulleids despite a good bloke on TW's thread suggesting they are Gresleys as is the last vehicle. The above disused stations info suggests the last vehicle is another van! I doubt that and feel it is more likely to be a green Bulleid Brake.

P,

[TheSignalEngineer]

Brilliant. So it is almost certainly summer holiday time.

I have noted that there were Manchester Ilfracombe summer trains but I suspect they would have used MR coaches or MK1s? This train is far more likely to have originated in the east midlands/west or south Yourkshire or it is 'borrowed stock' during lay over (or both of course).

May I ask how you found that loco info?

Phil

There was a mix of stock on the WR Wolverhampton to Minehead and Ilfracombe train. When I used the return working c1961 the Ilfracombe portion included LMS stock and the Minehead part had some Gresley stock. I've also seen Thompsons used as strengtheners on the Cornishmam when it started from Wolverhampton Low Level.

[RichardS]

Although obviously on the B&W the following is an extract from a document that appeared on the web a few years ago. I cannot find it now but I took notes at the time. It shows the variety of 'special' traffic that might be seen. This eyewitness account was by Joy Douglas of Nanstallon.

 

 

"When the Royal Cornwall Show moved to its permanent site at Wadebridge, all the 'Main Ring' attractions would be carried along the line the previous Sunday. I can remember the train once stopping at Boscarne and being able to see the horses of the Household Cavalry in the trucks.

 

Circuses were also moved along our railway form Wadebridge to Bodmin. On one occasion an elephant was being unloaded at Bodmin general Station – it fancied a nice rub against the station wall – and the wall promptly fell down!"  Copyright Joy Douglas

 

I leave it to your imagination what a circus train on the Bodmin & Wadebridge would have looked like!

 

So really this train at Halwill could be anything. I do hope that somebody can identify it.

[Mallard60022]

Found my magnifying glass last evening. Still can't identify with certainty, the coaches behind the Artics.

Spent hours looking at local to the Halwill area webs sites and found nowt. The photo of this train, for sale has, as far as I'm concerned, the wrong date. It should be 1960.

I've given up now.

Thanks for all your help everyone.

Phil

[Andy Kirkham]

Notwithstanding the mystery, its actually a good photo. 

 

Agreed. Most of photos I've seen of the North Cornwall line were taken at stations (presumably when the photographer was a passenger) and I seem to have seen relatively few taken out in the countryside, showing what the surrounding scenery was like. Same with the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Andy Kirkham