Any future for Class 317?

[DavidLong]

A photograph posted yesterday here (post #29):

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82181-railway-photos-around-north-lancashire-south-cumbria/page-2&do=findComment&comment=3325103

prompted the question about the future, if any, for Class 317 EMUs

 

At a rough guess around 90 units were built between 1981 and 1986 and, as far as I am aware, all are still in use. They are all now concentrated on Greater Anglia and London Overground having spent their earlier years on MML suburban services and also on GN out to Peterborough. I used them to commute from Huntingdon to Kings Cross for five years from 1987 to 1992 and was impressed with them despite the rather utilitarian looks.

 

However, they are due to be replaced by the tranche of new units on Greater Anglia so the future is looking a bit grim. Units from Classes 319 and 321 seem to have some sort of future both in their present form and also with conversions to dual or tri mode units but I have seen nothing similar proposed for Class 317.

 

By the way, I note that the set in the photograph at Carnforth is from the 317/5 family which was refurbished in 2005 and may just be a more attractive proposition for some sort of use than than their unrefubished bretheren (sisters?)

 

David

 

Edited to add ? into title!

Edited October 9, 2018 by DavidLong

[Legend]

I think it all depends on whether they’ve been updated for a revision of disability arrangements that come in in 2019. The 319s have been which is why they are selected for conversion to bi mode . I believe some 455s (cousins of the 317) may also be earmarked for this because they too have been upgraded. The 317s weren’t mentioned

[08221]

They also had a spell on the WCML based at Bletchley, taking over from the (much missed) 310's and then being replaced themselves by brand new Dusty Bins.

 

They were very reliable units from what I recall from my daily commute into Euston - although the power cars gave the crossover south of Hemel Hempstead station a right bashing when on the up fast!

[great central]

More likely problem could be a distinct lack of wires? There's loads of EMUs coming off lease before too long and no plans for any more electric string, so no idea where they could work

[phil-b259]

I think it all depends on whether they’ve been updated for a revision of disability arrangements that come in in 2019. The 319s have been which is why they are selected for conversion to bi mode . I believe some 455s (cousins of the 317) may also be earmarked for this because they too have been upgraded. The 317s weren’t mentioned

 

Not so!

 

The ONLY reason the 319s were picked is their 750VDC capability and the basic principle that its a lot easier to produce a diesel engine + alternator / battery setup to output 750V than 25KV. This would then allow maximum reuse of the existing control gear as you simply 'fool' the traction kit into thinking its working off con rail when there isn't anyway.

 

While there have been a fair few setbacks and its not turning as simple as originally envisaged, the concept is still sound - and its why the 455s due to be displaced from SWR are being thought of as the next project.

 

Unfortunately, despite their recent refurbishment, the 321s are just as likely to be scrapped along with the 317s thanks to the lack of wires.

[luckymucklebackit]

The 317 that went north along the WCML (317506) ended up at Brodies at Kilmarnock, apparently for PRM modifications, so that would suggest that here is life left in these units.  Some of the 321s are being robbed of one coach and being out into service on the Glasgow Suburban lines as class 320s. 321403 came north (also to Kilmarnock) yesterday for that purpose.

 

Jim

[Joseph_Pestell]

They are close to 40 years old.

 

So difficult to justify much expenditure on them and no obvious locations where they could enjoy a semi-retirement in view of the disability regs.

 

I shall be sorry to see them go. One of the more interesting EMU types, especially the early ones with "clerestory" cab roof.

 

I take the point about a lack of wired routes for them to run on. On a more enlightened railway, they could be a good low-cost way of restoring experimental local services on electrified main line routes: e.g. Durham - Morpeth.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[John M Upton]

I can't help wondering do we really need all these shiny new trains, many of which just seem to be being purchased to make it look like (at great expense) the political powers that be are actually doing something.

 

Many of the potentially doomed classes of unit there really is nothing wrong with them that a little money and some time in the workshop can't fix.

[great central]

I can't help wondering do we really need all these shiny new trains, many of which just seem to be being purchased to make it look like (at great expense) the political powers that be are actually doing something.

 

Many of the potentially doomed classes of unit there really is nothing wrong with them that a little money and some time in the workshop can't fix.

Yes but everything has to be shiny and new now

Edit to remove double reply??

Edited October 9, 2018 by great central

['CHARD]

I can't help wondering do we really need all these shiny new trains, many of which just seem to be being purchased to make it look like (at great expense) the political powers that be are actually doing something.

 

Many of the potentially doomed classes of unit there really is nothing wrong with them that a little money and some time in the workshop can't fix.

 

This deserves a decent thorough response but I shall have to paraphrase.

 

Class 317 is a Generation 2 EMU, robustly agricultural but feeling its age and facing creeping obsolescence of its on-board systems and equipment.  Had these stayed on GA, by the end of the forthcoming franchise, they would be 40 - 45 years old.  By this time, spares will be in short supply, except for parts robbed from fallen classmates.  Their chopper or thyristor controlled propulsion system is now several generations out of date, with IGBT inverters being the present industry standard.  Their bogies are also from an earlier age, thus creating a higher running cost in terms of VTAC (variable track access charges).  They are not fitted with regenerative braking, and their bodyshells are like Trigger's broom.  

 

Sure they could be 'fixed,' but the laws of diminishing returns and spiralling costs apply.  The running costs considered as a pence per mile (Franchise bid standard method) will be beaten comprehensively by those bid by new train manufacturers, and guaranteed within a performance contract, thus insulating the operator from performance risk and its financial consequences. 

 

The indifference pricing traditionally preferred by the original Big Three leasing companies also puts these old trains at a huge disadvantage compared to new trains financed by new market entrants and secondary financiers who take a different view on asset value and depreciation, plus having access to new financing models.

 

DfT standards in franchise bids require reused rolling stock to be refurbished so that it's indistinguishable from new, something that is impossible with units of this age.  They also stipulate air-conditioning, and a host of other minimum passenger requirements, on top of PRM mods, all of which require trains being taken out of service (with temporary cover trains drafted in at distress-purchase rates), expensively modified, and the costs of this being amortised over a short guaranteed service life of 4-6 years.

 

It's economics, and the alternative of keeping old units - EMUs especially with their restricted spheres of operation - just won't wash its face.  

 

Yes but everything has to be shiny and new now

Edit to remove double reply??

 

See above.

[Zomboid]

I think the gist of that is that the second generation EMUs have pretty much served out their lives now, and replacing them is to be expected. And I would wholly agree.

 

The madness is where there are some 707 and 379 fleets which will be homeless after no more than 5 years service.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Zomboid

[DavidLong]

Thanks for the responses. They do state what I pretty much expected in that the future doesn't look great. Although it is interesting that 317506 has apparently ended up at Brodies for PRM modifications.

 

On a somewhat related issue concerning the use of second generation units it has been noted recently that some Class 321 units may be used for hydrogen fuel cell trials.

 

Chard mentioned the specification of air-conditioning in franchise requirements. This was proposed originally in the case of Class 319s for Northern but it must have been decided that the north wasn't warm enough to require it as it somehow slipped off the refurb schedule!

 

David

[Pete the Elaner]

They also had a spell on the WCML based at Bletchley, taking over from the (much missed) 310's and then being replaced themselves by brand new Dusty Bins.

 

They were very reliable units from what I recall from my daily commute into Euston - although the power cars gave the crossover south of Hemel Hempstead station a right bashing when on the up fast!

My first memories were of them on the WCML.

I lived near Colchester at the time & can't share your fondness for 310s, which we inherited a little later. The 317s raised the service speed from 75 to 100mph. That's quite an improvement. 317's acceleration was better too. Unlike the top speed which was more useful on the fast lines, the acceleration was a benefit on the slow lines too.

The 310s & 312s both seemed to suffer from what sounded like a poor gear change. They accelerated a little then you could hear a clanking sound underneath as you coasted for a while before the noise stopped & you accelerated again. Maybe someone can explain exactly what that was. I never heard any other unit do it.

310s were nearly 30 years old by the time, so were well past their best & like their look-alike 312's, very draughty by this time. I found them unpleasant to ride on.

 

As for 'needing' new stock, who keeps their car indefinitely?

Some may have a cherished one, but the everyday one is usually changed every few years. Older ones become expensive to maintain when parts become obsolete & regulations are constantly moving forward, often for good reasons. We may look back at the Mk1 with nostalgia but how would they cope with regular 125mph demanded by many of today's routes? This puts 50% more energy into the wheels & bogies so they would probably require much more maintenance. How would they cope with a crash too? The Pendolino in Grayrigg held together quite well, but a set of Mk1's would have buckled very badly.

[Wickham Green]

 

As for 'needing' new stock, who keeps their car indefinitely?

Some may have a cherished one, but the everyday one is usually changed every few years. Older ones become expensive to maintain when parts become obsolete & regulations are constantly moving forward, often for good reasons. We may look back at the Mk1 with nostalgia but how would they cope with regular 125mph demanded by many of today's routes? 

Phew - I thought you were talking about Mk1 CORTINAS for a second ........... probably not a good idea at 125mph !

[Pete the Elaner]

Phew - I thought you were talking about Mk1 CORTINAS for a second ........... probably not a good idea at 125mph !

Er, I didn't write that very well did I?

[Titan]

 

The 310s & 312s both seemed to suffer from what sounded like a poor gear change. They accelerated a little then you could hear a clanking sound underneath as you coasted for a while before the noise stopped & you accelerated again. Maybe someone can explain exactly what that was. I never heard any other unit do it.

310s were nearly 30 years old by the time, so were well past their best & like their look-alike 312's, very draughty by this time. 

 

That would be the tap changer, operated by a pneumatic camshaft.  The transformer would have a number of different taps on the secondary coil, giving different voltages. As the speed increased, higher voltages could be applied to the motors to maintain current and therefore torque, and the camshaft selected all the taps in sequence, clanking as the cams operated the contacts, until full voltage was applied. I think most of the AC units up to 312 would have had this system, with the exception of the ex 1500VDC conversions which still used the original resistances that were switched out as required.

 

There was much more clanking after passing through a neutral section at speed, as the camshaft reset to zero and had to clank all through the whole sequence in one go to get back to full voltage!

Edited October 9, 2018 by Titan

[DY444]

24 317s are to receive PRM modifications.  Reports are that these are to be retained longer than originally expected because some routes will still require 8 car trains (Hertford East was mentioned) pending infrastructure changes which won't be ready before the PRM regs kick in. 

[Covkid]

Well said "'Chard". That amply explains things regarding EMUs. Sadly, massive amounts of steel are being welded into the diesel cousins of these - the class 150s, simply because it is acceptable to push diesel multiple units further than their electric siblings.

 

Hang on. NOOOOO. That is not right, because DMUs are full of rattles from a lifetime of Cummins cycling between full power and idling repeatedly for sixteen hours a day.

 

Aaahh. So what we saying is Sprinters don't use electronic traction. Just good old fashioned Voith transmissions and Cummins bus engines and can just be kept going forever more.

 

Perverse !!!!

[black and decker boy]

Posted elsewhere (as DY444 says) that all317/3 and 317/5 are to receive PRM-TSI mods to allow them to remain in traffic beyond 31-12-19

 

Mention there is that this also allows for any delays in getting the Aventra class passed for NR passenger use (note class 710 still not in traffic with TFL).

 

Getting Infrastructure works completed to compliment new trains seems a U.K. wide mess. You wouldn’t think the orders were placed a few years ago would you.

[PM47079]

When I was at Ilford a few years back picking up some wagons I was talking to the bombardier staff while I was waiting and he told me that some of the 317 units were suffering with quite a bit of corrosion so I suspect they know which ones are suspect

[Hesperus]

With ideas of freight/parcels HSTs being thrown around every few months would 317 trailers be useful with big 1/3+2/3 doors rather than little slam doors at the ends?

[jonny777]

In case you are in need of any further nostalgia, here is a photo of them from the early days. 

 

 

['CHARD]

Thanks for the responses. They do state what I pretty much expected in that the future doesn't look great. Although it is interesting that 317506 has apparently ended up at Brodies for PRM modifications.

 

Chard mentioned the specification of air-conditioning in franchise requirements. This was proposed originally in the case of Class 319s for Northern but it must have been decided that the north wasn't warm enough to require it as it somehow slipped off the refurb schedule!

 

Looking at the contracted withdrawal dates (more correctly lease-end dates) for the GA 317s, there are 27 units slated for switching off in 2020, i.e. after the PRM deadline.  In reality, of course, some won't run beyond 31st December 2019, but 12 of these are listed as handed back on 30th April 2020.  I suspect therefore that PRM mods will be required in any case on a modest number of sets, by virtue of new train delivery dates.  It would make sense therefore, to retain the PRM 317s in service for longer once they have been modified.

 

Regarding Class 319 air-conditioning, it's beyond the auxiliary supply capability certainly of the 'Flex' conversion, and I think it would also exceed the permitted axle loads for a Flex.

[dvdlcs]

Not being in that part of the country, I never saw Class 317 EMUs in operation.

 

What I do remember was the delayed introduction due to a union dispute, I think over DOO, and the fact that one of the driving trailers on 317 301 may never have turned a wheel in service, being written off due to a shunting incident at Cricklewood(?) A replacement, bearing the same number, was constructed as they were still building the batch at the time.

 

Not sure what happened to the original, whether BR broke it up - I assume there would be plenty of components that could have been recovered - or if it went to a private contractor (e.g. Booths, Berrys, Mayer etc.)

[stewartingram]

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Posted Today, 12:11

Not being in that part of the country, I never saw Class 317 EMUs in operation.

 

 

Oh lucky you!

I had to suffer those cattle trucks on my commute to KGX from Huntingdon for far too long. Awfully low seats, with many cushions detached. Draughty and cold. Slow too - when we git a few back, along with 321s, they didn't have the acceleration of a 365 and until drivers got used to them again, we were always loosing time. One they found     how to handle them though, top speed was the same and timings improved. I dreaded the journey home in winter after a night shift, 1st train out of KGX, stopping everywhere (and some), freezing cold, draughty and uncomfortable.