Wishlist poll - industrial locomotive additional

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

I am writing here ‘personally’ and not on behalf of The 00 Poll Team (apart from the comment in brackets against the Nasmyth Wilson 0-8-0T).

 

I have had a look through Ruston’s 2017 Poll thread and have extracted the following that ought to be considered as people have suggested them. Apologies for seemingly writing in hieroglyphics – I am not ‘an expert industrial modeller’ and am going by the descriptions of those writing. Some will no doubt overlap, but that's for others to sort.

 

However, it does show the need for an editorially consistent style of listing which will be for the benefit of the beginner to expert.

 

Tiny contractor’s loco

Barclay 0-6-0ST

48DS

Nasmyth Wilson 0-8-0T (The wheel arrangement is missing from The Poll list but it has never been suggested as an addition to the best of my knowledge. Neither has 0-6-2T)

Fireless Manning Wardle

Manchester Ship Canal ‘Jazzer’ 0-6-0T

15” Hunslet

16” Hunslet

Port of Par 0-4-0ST

Avonside Sir John

Andrew Barclay Llantanum Abbey

HC 1885

Peckett 1203 The Earl

Bagnall 15” 0-6-0ST

Andrew Barclay 14” 0-4-0

0-6-0 Manning Wardle

0-6-0 Hudswell Clarke

EE Stephenson 0-4-0DH

16” Barclay

Sentinel 0-6-0

HC 0-6-0DM

Peckett 0-6-0ST

Smaller IC Peckett 0-6-0ST (Metropolitan Railway)

Kerr Stuart Victory

Whitworth DE 0-4-0

12” Barclay

 

There were further submissions in the form of uncaptioned photos, so they need to be taken into consideration. They are at postings 15, 36, 44 and 57

 

Although I don’t have any specific industrial loco books, a quick scan through some photos by Ivo Peters in one of his – mainly ‘main line’ – books shows examples from many of the companies shown below, which ought to be in any list consideration. I have added some of my own:

Simplex

Planet

Ruston & Hornsby

Yorkshire Engine Co

Robert Stephenson & Hawthorn

Neilson

Markham

Garratt

Hawthorn Leslie

Kitson

North British

 

Listing by manufacturer and wheel arrangement etc is valid but by looking at the Andrew Barclay list on the link below, wheel size is almost certainly a factor.

 

http://www.industrial-loco.org.uk/works_list800.htm#800

 

Brian

[mdvle]

As we seem to be going round in circles here I suggest another poll of our own.

 Sounds good, and I am glad somebody knowledgeable on the subject will be stepping up which should help with the accuracy.

 

I will point out that as it current stands the Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0 is ineligible to be included in the big poll as it is a currently announced model.

 

The only way for the big poll to include it would be if someone contacted DJM and got confirmation that it has been cancelled, but as long as it remains as announced but undelivered it can't go in.

 

[mdvle]

We will have narrowed things down to something manageable and that also gives a good variety of options for actual types. We're going to end up with as many as 72 individual types or specific classes, so there's surely got to be something for everyone in there.

 

My suggestion would be to consider narrowing it down further, to maybe 40 entries, after you have run this poll to see where interest is.

 

To me the goal should be to encourage participation in voting in the category, to get the poll number high enough that a manufacturer takes an interest.  Create a list of entries that is too long could discourage people from doing the research to see what the various options are, and thus just skipping the section (because for an industrial to be viable you need the interest of those who aren't familiar with the options, but who instead will buy based on looks).  Or you could end up spreading votes around too much so fewer possiblities make the top 50.

 

Looking at the 2016 results - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=770380 - I would be tempted to omit the overhead electric category as it polled low (or perhaps put one entry into the other category.

 

Another option, if the poll team is okay with the idea, would be to run a larger selection of choices next poll with the goal of pruning any low polling choices to make a more focused (if necessary) set of option in the N+1 poll.

[BMacdermott]

 

Another option, if the poll team is okay with the idea, would be to run a larger selection of choices next poll with the goal of pruning any low polling choices to make a more focused (if necessary) set of option in the N+1 poll.

 

Hello mdvle

 

The Poll Team has a general policy of not deleting items that have gone in - unless they have been announced.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[tomparryharry]

Hello Brian,

 

I can't really comment on certain locomotive makers, but I do know Andrew Barclay built standard gauge locomotives in cylinder size increments, from 10", up to 18". This style went in both 0-4-0, and 0=6-0. llantarnam Abbey is a 14" 0-6-0 variant of the 0-4-0. both wheel arrangement having the same style of mechanics, etc.

 

The 12" variant is called a 'style 52'. Basically, a 12" outside cylinder 0-4-0. There were some 60-odd of these built, of which 12 have survived to the present day.

 

Apart from 'from stock' sales, Barclay built bespoke locomotives, to individual order.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ian.

[BMacdermott]

Thanks Ian

 

I had noticed that from the AB link I supplied. It is another 'contextual conundrum' for any Industrial team to analyse here.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Ruston]

Hello Ruston

 

Could you please supply evidence to support the statement which I have highlighted in bold? We are happy to be constructively criticised.

 

It is interesting to note that you are taking a lead role despite having said a few posts back that you were 'out'. You say that you will take the 'casting votes' (if needed) as to what finally makes the list. How can you assure pollsters that you have made the decision objectively and not subjectively against your own wants?

 

Would it not display your integrity in better light if you had, say, two other industrial fans who could challenge your views? Perhaps ask for volunteers? 

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

Hello Brian,

 

The quote that you highlighted in bold, "instead of running around like headless chickens and being bewildered by the vast amount of types, builders and wheel arrangements."

 

From your Wishlist poll Q&A thread, after being asked why there was no industrial section:

 

When we first looked at the subject, we tried to list items in the same way that we do in the other categories but soon found it impossible.

 

 

 

 

When we first started looking at the Industrial subject, we went into some detail...then greater detail...then greater detail....then even greater detail!

 

It wasn't possible to sort it out into anything coherent - so we took the generic route.

 

 

 

My comment about penny numbers was partly referring to a list of Industrial locos that I had seen that ran into dozens of pages.

 

 

As noted, if you can provide us with a coherent, well-founded list (of not more than 70 items) we will give it a fair hearing. We will be delighted if you can prove us wrong as no-one that we can see has yet managed to do it.

 

 

None of The Poll Team comes under the heading of 'expert' in relation to Industrials, so we look to good people such as yourself for help and inspiration. We tried with the IRS, but settled on 'generic' for the reasons given. No-one has subsequently come up with anything better.

 

We did look at a list where each maker was listed alphabetically and each of its loco types by wheel arrangement listed below. That is a starting point; but how does one evaluate - for example - all the different Pecketts? How many makers are there?

 

 

 

And from earlier on in this thread.

 

 

The problem then is: how many makers are there? And how many wheel arrangements in each?

 

I suspect a lot.

 

 

That does look to me that you are bewildered by the number of types, builders and wheel arrangements.

 

You are correct, I did say that I was out. That was because you still haven't provided anything constructive for us to work with.  So I thought, as Corbs suggested earlier, that we could have our own poll. We as industrial modellers, here in this small part of the internet, will take control of it, make our own choices and have our own poll.

 

Whatever you may think of it, and although it's not perfect, it's better that what you and the team have come up with and at the end of it we'll have a result. You and the poll team can then use the information that is gained from it, or you can ignore it and keep the vague choices that you already have but you can't say that I, and every other contributor to the suggestions, haven't tried.

 

How can I assure pollsters that I have made the decision objectively and not subjectively against my own wants? If you read one of my earlier posts you'll have seen that I'm quite capable of kit and scratchbuilding, so if there's something that I really want I'll go and make it, rather than wait for the off chance that it wins the poll and a manufacturer actually takes notice of the result and does make it at some time in the future.

 

We don't even know yet that any suggestions will have to be discarded but if it comes to it, someone has to decide and I'm not a fan of meetings about meetings, polls about polls, or committees. I guess pollsters will just have to trust me.

 

Having said that, if you don't want me to do the poll then I won't. After all, it isn't life or death.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Ruston

 

As you have shown in all those clippings, my Team thoroughly evaluated all the component parts of how Industrials might be listed and we did that in a coherent, unrushed, systematic manner over many weeks that sought to list items in a way that was usable by both beginner and expert alike.

 

We weren’t in any way ‘bewildered’. We simply reached a hard grafted, worked-through conclusion that – within the confines of a category – we couldn’t provide a varied but coherent list. We went ahead in 2014 as we had had many requests to do so and we have explained our reasoning each year. It has worked well – up until now.

 

No bewilderment. No headless chickens. Consistent results (which could have been evaluated elsewhere starting five years ago.

 

You went on to say:

You are correct, I did say that I was out. That was because you still haven't provided anything constructive for us to work with.  So I thought, as Corbs suggested earlier, that we could have our own poll. We as industrial modellers, here in this small part of the internet, will take control of it, make our own choices and have our own poll.

 

In response to your request for suggestions, I submitted a list – under my own personal name – at #101 which I hoped might help to give an idea of the complexity if you are to provide a list for ‘beginner to expert’ use. However, if it’s simply for ‘expert Industrialists’, then all well and good.

 

It is a ‘free world’ and you can run whatever Polls you wish to run.

 

Clearly, there is a lot of cross-purpose talk here. In the interests of harmony, I won’t comment further either as myself or Poll team lead role, but will follow your deliberations with interest. Of course, if there are any questions that you or anyone feels that I can answer I will, of course, do my best.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Ruston]

You went on to say:

You are correct, I did say that I was out. That was because you still haven't provided anything constructive for us to work with.  So I thought, as Corbs suggested earlier, that we could have our own poll. We as industrial modellers, here in this small part of the internet, will take control of it, make our own choices and have our own poll.

 

In response to your request for suggestions, I submitted a list – under my own personal name – at #101 which I hoped might help to give an idea of the complexity if you are to provide a list for ‘beginner to expert’ use. However, if it’s simply for ‘expert Industrialists’, then all well and good.

 

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

Apologies, Brian. In my last post, replying to a post directed at me from the previous page, things had not got as far as post #101 at the top of this page. Although I didn't actually press the post button until 15:07 I had started to type the reply before you made your own post at 13:39. I am a little slow at typing but not that slow. I left the computer and had other things to do. before coming back to it.

 

Regarding the poll that I was going to post, since my last post, Regularity and Corbs are/were going to come on board to help sort out what to leave out if we had too many suggestions.

 

I don't know if I can be bothered now. It's all too much hassle. I'd rather spend my time building my layout than doing this stuff. It's probably all a waste of time anyway.

[tomparryharry]

There is a bit of dilemma with industrial locomotives.

 

There are large classes, such as the Hunslet 18" austerity. some 400+ built, and quite a few survived. Some train spotters call them J94:- AARGH!

 

Then there are industrial locomotives on one class only. However, just one locomotive can have a huge renown, and a public following. Which one to model, or vote for?

 

Harry? The last Barclay to work in industry? Desmond? an Avonside product from Orb steelworks, South Wales? The list is expansive.

 

The probable truth is that if you know the 'ins & out' of the industrial scene, then having an RTR loco of your personal choice is a bit of a long shot, at best. The real chance is that you'll have done your research already.

 

Niche with a capital N.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

post Script.  I once travelled to Hutt, just outside Wellington, New Zealand, where an Andrew Barclay loco was plinthed outside. I made polite conversation about the 'blue' locomotive. "Ah, it's just dumped outside, we don't know what to do with it", came the reply.  I was happy to tell them the locomotive is unique; only one made, and is a true bespoke one-off. I'm truly happy to say the team at Hutt took full notice, and are now restoring the loco. Well done to them.  Here's the problem: How could you garner enough votes for a model locomotive that very few people know about? Oh, did I mention Niche?

[mdvle]

Then there are industrial locomotives on one class only. However, just one locomotive can have a huge renown, and a public following. Which one to model, or vote for?

 

Don't make things too complicated, the interest for industrial locomotives is there.  The key is they aren't interested in being prototypically accurate in use, they just want a nice little loco for their small layout.

 

Just look at the 2016 poll results (*) where the "generic" listings had 6 items in the top 50!  In fact, only 3 items did relatively poorly in the poll (0-8-0 Diesel, Overhead Electric, and Bo-Bo Diesel).

 

So the demand is there for something to be made as long as it piques the interest of the voters and buyers.

 

So yes, you may not get your favourite one off prototype, but it is very much possible to provide a selection of locos for people to choose from that they will vote for (likely based on looks rather than historic significance), and if produced likely go out an purchase.

 

 

* - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116458-results-the-wishlist-poll-2016/

[Corbs]

I'm going to do a series of polls to narrow down the choices we currently have (which are quite broad) to a range of submissions we can ask to put in the poll.

 

The first one I'll do is about 0-6-0 steam locos (may yet break it down into 0-6-0T and 0-6-0ST but we'll see). I'll do a poll with pics on the first post so people can get an idea of what they are voting for.

The list I currently have is:

 

Manning Wardle L Class 0-6-0ST

Andrew Barclay 0-6-0ST (like 'Salmon')

RSH Class 56 (Uglies) 0-6-0ST

RSH 0-6-0T Hams Hall version (like 7151 on the Avon Valley Railway)

Avonside B3 (like the MD&HB locos) and/or B4 (like Portbury or Earl Fitzwilliam)

MSC Jazzer 0-6-0T

15” Hunslet (need to get an example)

16” Hunslet (as above)

Peckett B2 (like 'No.1203 The Earl' or ‘Henry’ No.1264 of 1913)

Hudswell Clarke 1885 0-6-0ST (as seen at Mountain Ash)

Small IC Peckett 0-6-0ST (Metropolitan Railway)

Peckett FA (like 'Henbury')

 

Are there any others not on this list that you think should be added? Please post below or in the poll thread when I start it.

 

Try and think about:

-Does it fill a gap?*

-Can the tooling be used over and over again to recoup set-up investment?

-Can it be adapted to suit multiple prototypes with little detail differences?

 

Also, please bear in mind I am not asking 'name every industrial 0-6-0 you can think of', it's 'what industrial 0-6-0 is a good idea for a manufacturer to make?'

 

*In other words, is it distinct enough from things already on the market? An example of this would be that I don't think any manufacturer considering a new tooling would make a Hunslet 50550 because they are so similar to the Austerity which is already made by 2 manufacturers.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Corbs

[tomparryharry]

I'm going to do a series of polls to narrow down the choices we currently have (which are quite broad) to a range of submissions we can ask to put in the poll.

 

The first one I'll do is about 0-6-0 steam locos (may yet break it down into 0-6-0T and 0-6-0ST but we'll see). I'll do a poll with pics on the first post so people can get an idea of what they are voting for.

The list I currently have is:

 

Manning Wardle L Class 0-6-0ST

Andrew Barclay 0-6-0ST (like 'Salmon')

RSH Class 56 (Uglies) 0-6-0ST

RSH 0-6-0T Hams Hall version (like 7151 on the Avon Valley Railway)

Avonside B3 (like the MD&HB locos) and/or B4 (like Portbury or Earl Fitzwilliam)

MSC Jazzer 0-6-0T

15” Hunslet (need to get an example)

16” Hunslet (as above)

Peckett B2 (like 'No.1203 The Earl' or ‘Henry’ No.1264 of 1913)

Hudswell Clarke 1885 0-6-0ST (as seen at Mountain Ash)

Small IC Peckett 0-6-0ST (Metropolitan Railway)

Peckett FA (like 'Henbury')

 

Are there any others not on this list that you think should be added? Please post below or in the poll thread when I start it.

 

Try and think about:

-Does it fill a gap?*

-Can the tooling be used over and over again to recoup set-up investment?

-Can it be adapted to suit multiple prototypes with little detail differences?

 

Also, please bear in mind I am not asking 'name every industrial 0-6-0 you can think of', it's 'what industrial 0-6-0 is a good idea for a manufacturer to make?'

 

*In other words, is it distinct enough from things already on the market? An example of this would be that I don't think any manufacturer considering a new tooling would make a Hunslet 50550 because they are so similar to the Austerity which is already made by 2 manufacturers.

 

Hi Corbs,

 

Some small addition would be the 0-6-0 st variety of the 14 & 16" Andrew Barclay, as by Hattons. Funnily enough in real life, the motion, tanks, etc are the same across the real life locomotives. An extra set of wheels, and a different cab & bunker are about it.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Corbs]

Thanks Ian, I hope I have covered the Andrew Barclay 0-6-0ST locos, just to confirm, are these the ones you mean?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23689245@N08/13723147744

http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/ma_htm_files/23.jpg

[tomparryharry]

Thanks Ian, I hope I have covered the Andrew Barclay 0-6-0ST locos, just to confirm, are these the ones you mean?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23689245@N08/13723147744

http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/ma_htm_files/23.jpg

llantarnam Abbey is a 14" 0-6-0 Barclay, which is mechanically identical to the 0-4-0 loco, but larger, for the 6-wheel version. I think Salmon & Swordfish are 16" versions.

 

The extra pair of driving wheels allows the larger cab & bunker. Naturally the larger locomotives are longer overall.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ian.

[rope runner]

Salmon and Swordfish are 14"

 

The boiler sits higher in the frames than the 0-4-0 variant. I'm not sure if the tank is also a shorter height to allow this?

 

Paul A.

Edited October 30, 2018 by 1whitemoor

[Corbs]

llantarnam Abbey is a 14" 0-6-0 Barclay, which is mechanically identical to the 0-4-0 loco, but larger, for the 6-wheel version. I think Salmon & Swordfish are 16" versions.

 

The extra pair of driving wheels allows the larger cab & bunker. Naturally the larger locomotives are longer overall.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ian.

 

 

Salmon and Swordfish are 14"

 

The boiler sits higher in the frames than the 0-4-0 variant. I'm not sure if the tank is also a shorter height to allow this?

 

Paul A.

 

Thanks for the info chaps, I think this is fine, Hattons already showed the detail variants which can be made with the 0-4-0ST like cylinders, cabs, tanks, etc. so this can go down as one item in the poll. 

[Corbs]

POLL NUMBER ONE FOR 0-6-0 STEAM LOCOS IS OPEN
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/138922-which-industrial-steam-0-6-0-should-be-made-in-rtr-industrial-loco-poll-1/

Edited October 30, 2018 by Corbs

[tomparryharry]

Salmon and Swordfish are 14"

 

The boiler sits higher in the frames than the 0-4-0 variant. I'm not sure if the tank is also a shorter height to allow this?

 

Paul A.

Sorry Paul, you're quite right. llantarnam Abbey sits in the frame a lot higher. The boiler of AB 2201 Victory has a lot of interchangeable parts with llantarnam Abbey, as it's a mix & match going on at the moment.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[rope runner]

Sorry Paul, you're quite right. llantarnam Abbey sits in the frame a lot higher. The boiler of AB 2201 Victory has a lot of interchangeable parts with llantarnam Abbey, as it's a mix & match going on at the moment.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

No worries Ian - if you're involved with the project, do you know if the saddle tank on Victory is the same height as the 0-6-0 variant? 

 

I have a DJH models barclay body which I'm drawing an etch to convert to an 0-6-0 type, it would be good to know if major surgery of the cast metal tank is to be required. 

 

Cheers

 

Paul A. 

[Corbs]

POLL NUMBER 2 is coming - 6 wheeled industrial diesels.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Currently I have:

 

Bagnall DL2

Hudswell Clarke MSC 0-6-0DE (4001 and 4002)

Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0DM (long bonnet, like the ones that were at Avonmouth - Merlin on the KWVR is one of these)

Sentinel 0-6-0DM (again like the ones at Avonmouth)

GEC 6w (65 and 75 ton versions) -like Ludwig Mond at Rocks By Rail

[Nearholmer]

What about a R&H 165 so that it could also be sold as the BR PWM650 series? I know that most of the industrial ones were somewhat different, but is there some common ground in there somewhere?

 

As with steam locos that appeal to light railway fans, I'm thinking of locos that can have a wider appear than hardcore industrialists.

[Ruston]

POLL NUMBER 2 is coming - 6 wheeled industrial diesels.

 

Any suggestions?

 

English Electric "Stephenson" type 0-6-0DH

https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1593/26150789674_105f748528_b.jpg

 

Kerr Stuart 6wDM

https://farm7.static.flickr.com/6057/6274583191_5410387bf3_b.jpg

 

John Fowler 424 class 0-6-0DH

https://pre00.deviantart.net/25fc/th/pre/i/2017/250/e/a/ribblesdale_cement_john_fowler_0_6_0dh_shunter_6_by_rlkitterman-dbmoj3l.jpg

 

John Fowler pre-war 0-6-0DM

https://photos.smugmug.com/Industrial/Ind-DE/i-kstqd9k/0/8efea1d3/L/pbr3-L.jpg

Edited November 1, 2018 by Ruston

[Nearholmer]

Another one along similar lines: Hunslet 150hp 0-6-0DM as bought by the LMS in the early 1930s.

 

Could sell to LMS fans, military railway fans, and there were several industrial users. 

 

LMS 7051 is a good example, very interesting history, and preserved.

 

Also, the early Kerr Stuart locos. I remember the one that worked at Rom River Reinforcements somewhere in the Trent Valley, which I think originally belonged to The Ravenglass & Eskdale Railway, and I think is now preserved at Foxfield. [snap with 'Ruston' on this one]

 

Its a class that spans c60 years in operation, alongside everything from 15" gauge steamers to 25kV OLE.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Nearholmer

[brack]

The r&er/Rom river loco is the Kerr Stuart 060dm in ruston's post.