Wishlist poll - industrial locomotive additional

[rope runner]

So, likely with many mistakes given my ignorance of the issue, here is a summary of the suggestions so far (and perhaps some missed, if so sorry).

 

That seems a fair list. Perhaps a little more information on the descriptors eg. "Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST" etc - it could be many different designs, eras, cylinder size etc. 

 

The Lewin might be difficult as she was originally built as a well tank and her appearance changed much through her working life. She was however the oldest working steam loco in the UK for a time. I can see the appeal, but perhaps a challenge.

 

Not to be a pedant, but a side note to those interested in such things - the RSH class used by S&L Minerals at Corby should really be the "56" class, the number assigned to the first one delivered to Gretton Brook Works Number 7667 of 1950. I've noted that there were a total of three livery variations worn during their working lives, with two bearing names.

 

Paul A. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by 1whitemoor

[mdvle]

Another thought, is there anything not on that list that is an "obvious" choice to be made in RTR?

 

It would be unfair to the poll team to submit a list that omits an engine that participants in the poll will be upset was left off because of a desire to not poll models that are available in kit form, or for any other reasons (reason for asking is because this forum is by the nature of the web only a small portion of people interested in industrials, and the others will come out of the woodwork as the saying goes if this gets added to the poll).

[Regularity]

I would hope that as we are on the 4th page of this topic, we have a suitable list compiled by now.

[Sandhole]

Here's a thing.

At least three people have said to me that, depending on price, and I don't mean stupidly cheap!!, they would buy a Garrett purely because of what it is!!

My good friend Mike also said, the O16.5 narrow gauge boys would buy it for the power drive.

Evidently, the outside framed Sentinel has sold really well to them. 0-4-0 outside framed chassis that works? Oh My Yes!!

 Just a thought!!

                               C.

[37079]

Another thought, is there anything not on that list that is an "obvious" choice to be made in RTR?

 

It would be unfair to the poll team to submit a list that omits an engine that participants in the poll will be upset was left off because of a desire to not poll models that are available in kit form, or for any other reasons (reason for asking is because this forum is by the nature of the web only a small portion of people interested in industrials, and the others will come out of the woodwork as the saying goes if this gets added to the poll).

I still have a feeling, although it may be old hat now, that anything that can be dressed as 'mainline', or can share tooling with a mainline prototype, has a better than average chance. This, plus in the case of the first one listed their general ubiquity, would lead me to suggest the following diesel types:

 

- Ruston 88DS (BR had at least one in departmental service)

- YEC 0-4-0 (very similar to BR class 02)

- Ruston LSSH 0-6-0 (very similar to BR class 07)

 

Before reading this, I would have said a Ruston of some shape (presumably 48DS, 88DS, or 165DS/DH?) was perhaps the most likely industrial diesel to next appear RTR.

 

Steam wise I would include a Barclay 0-4-0F on the basis of the high number built. There's some nice liveries possible on these as well.

 

Mike

[Covkid]

I would hope that as we are on the 4th page of this topic, we have a suitable list compiled by now.

 

But this reflects the problem the poll team are facing.  Industrial railway locos are so utterly diverse, and enthusiasts of the genre are going to be equally diverse in their wants. Take the aforementioned GEC/Stephenson 3 axle diesel as an example. Customers for the design were primarily BSC and NCB, but there were two different types 50t and 75t with different power units. Do they look identical ? I don't know.

 

This is some info from the Rocks by Rail website based on the preserved 50t "Ludwig Mond"

http://www.rocks-by-rail.org/exhibit/gec-5578-ludwig-mond/

 

GEC 5578 – LUDWIG MOND GEC Traction Ltd, Works Number 5578 built in 1980

RMC (now CEMEX) – BARRINGTON CEMENT WORKS & QUARRY, Cambs.

Built in 1980 under the Stephenson brand, LUDMIG MOND is believed to be the last standard gauge locomotive built at the world famous Vulcan Foundry at Newton-le-Willows. Originally sold to ICI at their Mond division works for moving their 100 ton limestone hoppers, it was named “Ludwig Mond” after the famous chemist and founder of ICI. Powered by a Dorman 8QT, V8 diesel engine of 500 hp, weight 50 tons in working order and having a 16.5 tons axle load. This class of locomotives were main line locomotives in miniature, there were two models produced, 50 and 75 ton, with either 8 (500hp) or 12 (750hp) cylinder engines. They were an expensive machine and sold to British Steel (75 ton model) National Coal Board (both weights) and this example to ICI.  A similar diesel hydraulic model was the mainstay of shunting within the Corby steel works.

When the ICI hopper work ended the loco passed through dealer’s hands and was eventually sold to Barrington Cement works for its main line work into the exchange sidings. It has therefore spent its entire working life in the quarrying industry. The locomotive was originally fitted with train vacuum and air brakes. It is intended to restore the vacuum brake, since removed, to bring the loco up to dual brake capability. The loco is well into a comprehensive overhaul and we look forward to it entering service as the largest and most modern loco in the collection.

[russ p]

The ones on teesside used to sound fantastic

[Regularity]

But this reflects the problem the poll team are facing.  Industrial railway locos are so utterly diverse, and enthusiasts of the genre are going to be equally diverse in their wants.

 

Which is a point I have made consistently...

 

To repeat, a “generic” design won’t cut it with dedicated industrial modellers, a specific model may not appeal to to all of them, either, so a variety of the more common types needs to be offered in the poll, with hope that sensible design (such as removable cabs) would enable after-market details to be applied relatively easily. Even then, some will want their specific one-of-a-kind variant to be available off the shelf.

[mdvle]

In terms of the poll, both current and possible future.

 

It appears clear from the discussion on here that the categories used in the poll - T, ST, fireless, inside cylinder, outside cylinder - don't particularly matter and of more interest is the specific models.  Thus it would appear that the current poll doesn't really offer any meaningful data to the prospective manufacturer because not only does it not offer the specificity needed, but it probably discourages voting by being both confusing to those unfamiliar with the terminology or being to generic for those who do know.  So if a better selection of choices can't be provided to the poll team by someone familiar with industrials then perhaps it might be better for the poll team to consider removing the industrial section from the poll.

 

At just 4 pages of discussion in a week, it also is apparent that industrials are a niche product (the good news - lots of room for easy growth!).  This means any model will likely be inherently generic to the extent that the dedicated industrial market can't support exact models the way the mainline railway does.   So what that means is that likely 99% of any models sold will be sold on the basis of look / cuteness and not for a specific layout.  This means This is in a way a good thing as it means it will be safer for a prospective manufacturer to take a look at any future poll results, choose a model, and build a representative sample while ignoring the myriad of detail differences that would make the model unfeasible both due to tooling costs and production runs that would be too few.

 

Likely unsuitable for the poll, but perhaps an option in the industrial section to vote for "good basic model with design that allows easier 3rd party customization" would provide meaningful data that would either help encourage a model, or alternately demonstrate that a manufacturer might be better looking elsewhere.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by mdvle

[Dungrange]

As someone who isn't really in the market for a ready-to-run industrial locomotive, mine is very much an outsider's view, but my feeling is that the desire to replace a generic list that encompasses virtually all industrial locomotives with a far smaller list of specific locomotives misses the point of the industrial section of the poll.  Manufacturers and commissioners are only going to look at the higher polling options (overall and within each category) and therefore any choice that is likely to garner fewer than a dozen votes, probably shouldn't be listed as an option in the poll and it's a waste of time asking people to vote for something that is unlikely to be produced.

 

I would, therefore, approach any improvement to the poll by looking at the results of the previous surveys.  Brian has indicated that in the last poll, the highest number of votes in this category was cast for a 0-6-0 ST with inside cylinders.  To me, this indicates a desire from voters for something a bit bigger than Hattons' Barclay or Hornby's Peckett.  If this generic description made the Top 50, then one or more manufacturers may be looking to introduce a larger industrial locomotive.  What the poll results don't tell them, however, is what 0-6-0 ST with inside cylinders would likely sell best.  This is where I feel that the poll could be improved in future - by the subdivision of this specific category - and if I was on the poll team, I'd be looking to delete the reference to 0-6-0 ST inside cylinders and replace this with 0-6-0 ST with inside cylinders (manufacturer A), (manufacturer B) and (other manufacturers).  I'm not knowledgeable enough to say what manufacturers these should be.  If industrial modellers really don't care too much about the prototype (as long as it is accurate), then all three of these subcategories would poll highly, but if industrial modellers are a fussy bunch that would only buy a locomotive produced by a particular manufacturer, then what is currently a high voting category in aggregate would drop down the rankings (and therefore be less likely to be produced).

 

I think the important point is that voting for a generic category is not the same as voting for a generic locomotive.  Therefore, if you want a specific locomotive, work out which category it fits into and vote for that category.  As the number of votes in this category increases, so too will manufacturer's interest in the subject.  The important point is, therefore, to vote, even if you don't like the descriptions for each category.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Dungrange

[BMacdermott]

Hello David

 

Very interested to see you are in the Edinburgh & Lothians Club - an historic, iconic and influential club if ever there was one!

 

And many thanks to you for mentioning The Poll on the club website. It is very much appreciated.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Regularity]

Let me put it another way.

Back in the late 70s I had a Wrenn “R1” in red plastic, with LMS on the sides. (The body was soon jettisoned in favour of the K’s “bodyline” MR 3F tank kit.) Although the model was based on a specific variant of a specific prototype, it was offered in other companies’ liveries. Even if it did look like an LMS 3F tank (well, it had six couple wheels, and side tanks) it should have been in black. I have no idea how accurate a model of the rebuilt R1 it was, either!

 

What is currently being suggested on the poll is that 4mm modellers simply vote for any old 0-6-0ST on the same basis as above. All I am suggesting is a degree of specific to get a better poll result, otherwise it’s a meaningless question and a complete waste of time. And that’s not the fault of industrial modellers who read this section of RMWeb, but a failure of the pollsters to do any homework. No doubt they will see this not as their failing, but of those who subscribe to this forum.

 

They could have come here and said, “We want to include a section for an industrial 0-6-0T on our poll. Our feeling is that a saddle tank would be most popular. As modellers with more interest in and knowledge of this subject, which two or three prototypes do you think would be likely to generate the most interest and hence be most likely to generate returns for an interested manufacturer?” But sadly, they haven’t done that.

 

This goes back top what I said earlier: a poor question generates a poor and unreliable response.

[Ruston]

As we seem to be going round in circles here I suggest another poll of our own.

 

In July of last year we had our own Industrial loco poll. It was before Hattons announced their Barclay model and, funnily enough, a Barclay 0-4-0ST was the highest-polling type. I doubt the poll had any influence on their choice as I'm sure they would have been planning the model before the poll was started but Hattons made what the majority were asking for.

 

The old poll can be found here - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124429-weve-never-had-it-so-good-poll-for-new-industrial-loco-models/?hl=poll It was flawed because it included 7mm scale and also a "none of the above" choice.

 

To keep it simple I'll make the sections follow the main poll's set up and go by wheel arrangement where possible. I'll put in up to 6 types - that is a class or model name and the builder - in each section. The types going in the poll will be those that have been suggested so far and any more that are forthcoming until 8pm Sunday 4th November. If we have more than 6 in any one category, and they need to be whittled down, then I will decide which ones get the chop - someone has to make a decision otherwise we'll keep going round in circles, or need a poll on what to leave out of the poll! I'll set up the poll later that evening, or sometime on the Monday.

 

The entries will be:

 

Overhead electric

Petrol (any wheel arrangement).

0-4-0 or 4w Diesel

0-6-0 or 6w Diesel

0-4-0T

0-4-0ST

0-6-0T

0-6-0ST

Crane Tank

Fireless

Vertical Boiler tank

Others

 

 "Others" will be anything out of the ordinary and that doesn't fit any of the above, such as a Beyer Garratt, or an 0-8-0T of some description.

 

I don't see the point in differentiating whether the cylinders are inside or outside as by naming the prototypes we know which is which anyway.

 

This poll won't please everyone - anything like this never does - but it gives a definitive number of options to be voted on and, hopefully, the people running the main poll can take something from this instead of running around like headless chickens and being bewildered by the vast amount of types, builders and wheel arrangements.  We will have narrowed things down to something manageable and that also gives a good variety of options for actual types. We're going to end up with as many as 72 individual types or specific classes, so there's surely got to be something for everyone in there.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Ruston

[Corbs]

The industrial loco knockout competition, I like it.

[BMacdermott]

Let me put it another way.

Back in the late 70s I had a Wrenn “R1” in red plastic, with LMS on the sides. (The body was soon jettisoned in favour of the K’s “bodyline” MR 3F tank kit.) Although the model was based on a specific variant of a specific prototype, it was offered in other companies’ liveries. Even if it did look like an LMS 3F tank (well, it had six couple wheels, and side tanks) it should have been in black. I have no idea how accurate a model of the rebuilt R1 it was, either!

 

What is currently being suggested on the poll is that 4mm modellers simply vote for any old 0-6-0ST on the same basis as above. All I am suggesting is a degree of specific to get a better poll result, otherwise it’s a meaningless question and a complete waste of time. And that’s not the fault of industrial modellers who read this section of RMWeb, but a failure of the pollsters to do any homework. No doubt they will see this not as their failing, but of those who subscribe to this forum.

 

They could have come here and said, “We want to include a section for an industrial 0-6-0T on our poll. Our feeling is that a saddle tank would be most popular. As modellers with more interest in and knowledge of this subject, which two or three prototypes do you think would be likely to generate the most interest and hence be most likely to generate returns for an interested manufacturer?” But sadly, they haven’t done that.

 

This goes back top what I said earlier: a poor question generates a poor and unreliable response.

 

Hello Regularity

 

Please have a look at the excerpt from the Poll Industrial category text below. Note the second sentence.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

 

We have only listed ‘general types’ to see if any one or more emerges as more popular. This would enable further evaluation elsewhere. We haven’t provided any notes or links as the subject is a vast one!

 

Unlike other categories, we do not delete models that get announced. This is because of the ‘generic listing style’ and gives people a chance to vote for other makers’ locos. For example, Golden Valley Hobbies announced its 0-6-0 diesel loco at Warley 2015, but you will still find the 0-6-0 Diesel or Petrol listed and Hattons announced its Andrew Barclay in 2018.

[BMacdermott]

As we seem to be going round in circles here I suggest another poll of our own.

 

This poll won't please everyone - anything like this never does - but it gives a definitive number of options to be voted on and, hopefully, the people running the main poll can take something from this instead of running around like headless chickens and being bewildered by the vast amount of types, builders and wheel arrangements.  We will have narrowed things down to something manageable and that also gives a good variety of options for actual types. We're going to end up with as many as 72 individual types or specific classes, so there's surely got to be something for everyone in there.

 

Hello Ruston

 

Could you please supply evidence to support the statement which I have highlighted in bold? We are happy to be constructively criticised.

 

It is interesting to note that you are taking a lead role despite having said a few posts back that you were 'out'. You say that you will take the 'casting votes' (if needed) as to what finally makes the list. How can you assure pollsters that you have made the decision objectively and not subjectively against your own wants?

 

Would it not display your integrity in better light if you had, say, two other industrial fans who could challenge your views? Perhaps ask for volunteers? 

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Regularity]

Hello Regularity

 

Please have a look at the excerpt from the Poll Industrial category text below. Note the second sentence.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

 

We have only listed ‘general types’ to see if any one or more emerges as more popular. This would enable further evaluation elsewhere. We haven’t provided any notes or links as the subject is a vast one!

 

Unlike other categories, we do not delete models that get announced. This is because of the ‘generic listing style’ and gives people a chance to vote for other makers’ locos. For example, Golden Valley Hobbies announced its 0-6-0 diesel loco at Warley 2015, but you will still find the 0-6-0 Diesel or Petrol listed and Hattons announced its Andrew Barclay in 2018.

I had read that.

It’s like a political party asking for my vote on the basis of tax cuts without saying what services would be cut, or (to be even handed) an increase in services without saying how they would be funded: ultimately bland, open-ended, meaningless and unhelpful.

 

As I said, you wouldn’t canvass support for a “generic” grouping era loco, so why are you doing it for an industrial prototype? If approaching the issue from a point of little knowledge, then ask people with more knowledge before you put the question in the poll.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Regularity

 

We specifically noted (quote) "...for evaluation elsewhere" to mean somewhere such as a thread like this.

 

In 2016, 312 voters indicated an interest in Industrial 0-6-0ST - Outside Cylinders. That would be a starting point. One bite at a time may preclude the stated 'going round in circles'.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Oldddudders]

I had read that.

It’s like a political party asking for my vote on the basis of tax cuts without saying what services would be cut, or (to be even handed) an increase in services without saying how they would be funded: ultimately bland, open-ended, meaningless and unhelpful.

 

As I said, you wouldn’t canvass support for a “generic” grouping era loco, so why are you doing it for an industrial prototype? If approaching the issue from a point of little knowledge, then ask people with more knowledge before you put the question in the poll.

 

I think if I were Brian, I would now be recommending to the team that they remove all reference to Industrials, since, like N Gauge, it is not their main area of expertise, and others are obviously able to do it better.  

[BMacdermott]

Hello Ian

 

As soon as a current Poll 'goes live', we open up an Agenda sheet where we list all comments, suggestions and input of our own. The Agenda is then debated by The Team, category by category, item by item - no headless chickens are involved!

 

There are over 80 items on the Agenda at the moment. Decisions are based on weight of evidence - never our own personal preferences - and within the overall 'fit'.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Mark Saunders]

I think if I were Brian, I would now be recommending to the team that they remove all reference to Industrials, since, like N Gauge, it is not their main area of expertise, and others are obviously able to do it better.  

 

That would be throwing in the towel!

 

If you have no experience you do not exclude something you get a consultant!

 

Can you imagine the fuss if the mainline company locomotives were generically listed such as Co Co diesel or 0-6-0 shunter.

 

Mark Saunders

[BMacdermott]

Hello Mark

 

As noted earlier, we did consult the Industrial Railway Society but weren't able to come to a consensus view of what to list within the confines of a category.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Mark Saunders]

This year is over exept the results.

 

Next year is all to play for and I believe will be worth the wait!

 

Mark Saunders

[Regularity]

Hello Mark

 

As noted earlier, we did consult the Industrial Railway Society but weren't able to come to a consensus view of what to list within the confines of a category.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

Ah.

I can see two problems there. Not sure how many members of the IRS are active modellers of the industrial scene (and contrary-wise, how many modellers of the industrial scene are members of the IRS) and as has been repeated ad nauseum, there is no way you will get a consensus with such a broad question: it’s like asking modellers generally if they would be interested in an 00 gauge 0-6-0T.

 

Try it like this:

We are looking to gauge interest in 00 models of inside cylinder 0-6-0STs. Which models can you suggest as a good suggestion for polling, based on the following industrial locomotive suppliers/manufacturers?

Manning, Wardle;

Hudswell Clarke;

Andrew Barclay;

Bagnalls;

Hunslet;

Any we have missed.

 

That way, your question is less open-ended and have at least a degree of face validity (a.k.a. the “Ronseal test”).

 

Using that information, you can then put specific models such as the Manning, Wardle “L” class into the actual poll.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Regularity

 

It was the (2013) Modelling Officer of the IRS we spoke with. 

 

I repeat...we entered into the Industrial category as we had been requested by many modellers to do so. It is clear in our text that the list we provide is a basis for further evaluation elsewhere. So far, no-one has done that, and Ruston's 2017 Poll is a case in point.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)