Class separation and on-train catering

[Jim Martin]

In my lifetime of long distance train travel (from the early 80s, more or less), inter-city trains have generally been marshalled with first class accommodation at one end, standard class at the other and the catering vehicle in between. I know, though, that in the past some companies (the LNER, for example?) formed their trains with first class in the middle and third at either end.

 

Here's something which has been bugging me recently ( for no good reason, really). If you have a train formed something like this:

 

Brake 3rd

3rd

3rd open (set up for dining)

Kitchen 1st (for dining)

1st

3rd

Brake 3rd

 

then you have a number of 3rd class passengers who are separated from the... "appropriate" dining facilities by the 1st class section. It doesn't seem likely that, in a society as class-conscious as Britain's in the inter-war period, 1st class passengers (least of all those enjoying their proper sit-down meal in the dining car) would have welcomed members of the lower orders walking through en route to the 3rd class dining car.

 

How was this managed? Were 3rd class passengers who wanted a meal encouraged to sit at the "right" end of the train? Did they have to book their meal in advance? Did they, after all, just walk through the 1st class accommodation (the horror!)? Any ideas?

 

Jim

[The Johnster]

Welcome or not, the lower orders were permitted to walk through the corridors of first class stock, as the extra fare bought you a more comfortable seat rather than exclusive use of the 'public' area of the coach, whatever those who had shelled out for first class tickets to avoid contamination by the lumpen proletariat would like to have though.  There would, apart from anything else, be instances where a third class passenger needed to access the guard through the first class accommodation.  The same applied to open seating first class areas and their central aisle, but that would certainly provoke more in the way of disapproving looks and 'harrrumphs'.  It was not like an ocean liner where the classes were confined by locked doors (and guns while the Titanic was sinking) to their own areas; anybody can walk the entire unlocked length of a gangwayed train.

 

There are obvious safety implications in locking off areas of trains.

[Ian Kirk]

It would seem that the Third class "diners" were not only able to walk through the corridors of First class coaches but could also have had in some cases to walk down the centre of the first diner.  Unless of course you indicated an intention of dining before booking seat. The basic 1928 Flying Scotsman Had a Brake third and Composite First/Third behind the Third end of the Triplet Restaurant set. Then a Full First. Next came the Hairdressing salon/ladies withdrawing room/ cocktail bar third ( Handy for first class passengers) then a couple of Thirds and a full Brake. So unless the Third class diners all came from the Brake third and half of the Composite the rest would have to walk through the First , the Restaurant First and the Kitchen corridor.

Funny to look back into more "class conscious "times.  Not just on the railways.  My first visit to a Motorway Service station (as a fairly small boy) was to Lancaster. No real motorway then but it was on the bit that was called the Lancaster Bypass the main building still includes the big concrete structure, Atom Bomb Cloud shaped.  The top bit was a proper Restaurant with waitresses (black dress white apron) at the bottom was the self service which evolved into what we have now and round the back was the Transport Café for Lorry drivers. I suspect that it meant that you could buy the same Egg and Chips at three different prices. We were taking my Maternal Grandparents some where for a holiday at the time and they inevitably got in the lift and went off for First Class dining (my Maternal Grandmother was the sort of woman who wore a fur coat and hat to go out for afternoon tea with her Sister)  Mum, Dad and I went for Self Service. Much much later when the motorway was completed (for the first time). I had the factory and was travelling up and down regularly I tended to use Transport Cafes when available. The food was no worse than the standard Motorway Services offering, much cheaper and there were no noisy families. In recent years these places seem to have disappeared.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Steamport Southport]

Would many of the "lower orders" really be travelling long distances in trains that had dining facilities pre war?

 

Most of the Third Class occupants would be lower middle and upper working class. Those that weren't probably just had their own sandwiches at their seat.

 

 

 

Jason

[Bomag]

Didn't they have 'sittings' for the resturaunt so that 1st class passengers would not have had 3rd dinners walking through while they were eating, only before and after the meal.

[Bon Accord]

Didn't they have 'sittings' for the resturaunt so that 1st class passengers would not have had 3rd dinners walking through while they were eating, only before and after the meal.

 

They probably did. Certainly at least into the 21st century those trains which had full dining facilities catered for 1st class passengers as a priority with later sittings for standard.

Even today on the Sleeper services priority is supposedly given to 1st class ticket holders for use of the lounge car at busy periods but it's been a very long time since I've seen it enforced.

[Oldddudders]

In my early adult lifetime (the 70s) steerage-class passengers who wished to dine were welcomed in accommodation marked first class. A good wheeze that - the breakfast on the Euston - Liverpool train enabled one to sit with the rich (and those on expenses) virtually all the way, with endless coffee and toast.

[The Johnster]

The eating habits of different classes of passengers would make an interesting Social Studies project.  Back in my time, the 70s, at Canton we ran mystery excursions; great fun and value for money and very well patronised by valleys residents; they usually started from Rhymni or Treherbert very early in the morning, picked up all stations to Cardiff via what is now the 'City' line, and got back very late at night.  The patrons would stock themselves up for the full day, with flasks, sandwiches, beer and ciggies, and settle in to a compartment or seating bay in an open.  Many would leave their supplies for the homeward journey in their seats while the train was stabled at it's destination, though the railway made it clear that this was at their own risk.  Main meal would be fish'n'chips at the destination, but apart from that they were entirely self sufficient and self catering, to the extent of some of them bringing their own toilet paper in case their coach ran out.  All were hardened campaigners seasoned in the art of Mystex.

 

One might have thought that a buffet on such a train would have made a mint, but it wouldn't; everybody had already brought their own stuff and any on train catering would have been ignored, except perhaps a bar on the way back!

 

There was no first class; such a thing was not only not required, it would have been very seriously against the spirit of the enterprise!

Edited November 26, 2018 by The Johnster

[Wickham Green]

........................ dinners walking through while they were eating .................

Crikey - I've heard of the infamous stale British Railways sandwich ........... but dinners that could walk by themselves are new to me !

[Wickham Green]

Welcome or not, the lower orders were permitted to walk through the corridors of first class stock, as the extra fare bought you a more comfortable seat rather than exclusive use of the 'public' area of the coach, whatever those who had shelled out for first class tickets to avoid contamination by the lumpen proletariat would like to have though.  There would, apart from anything else, be instances where a third class passenger needed to access the guard through the first class accommodation.  The same applied to open seating first class areas and their central aisle, but that would certainly provoke more in the way of disapproving looks and 'harrrumphs'.  It was not like an ocean liner where the classes were confined by locked doors (and guns while the Titanic was sinking) to their own areas; anybody can walk the entire unlocked length of a gangwayed train.

 

There are obvious safety implications in locking off areas of trains.

There was, of course ONE train where 'those with' were locked separate from 'those without' .......... the essential requirement being a sleeper ticket on the Night Ferry : adjacent dining facilities were provided in both halves of the train but no through access was permitted.

[Jim Martin]

Thanks for all these replies. I suppose that I was really wondering to what extent the railway would have tried to indulge the "disapproving looks and harrumphs" (an accurate description, I'd have thought).

 

The point about staggered sitting times seems like a good one. I was thinking in terms of the catering being available at any time during the journey; but I suppose that would be quite impractical if you were providing full cooked meals, rather than today's pre-packed meals.

 

Jim

[Forester]

Remember the Two Ronnies' famous sketch ended with the words: "I know my place!"

 

Ordinary folk tended to avoid First Class areas by choice, and not necessarily because they felt inferior.

 

Indeed there was a kind of inverse snobbery which lead many people to try to be clearly seen as Not being First Class.

 

My Dad, proud of being an ordinary guy, would dress always smartly with a collar and tie and a jacket when going out but would refuse point blank to wear a suit for any occasion let alone formal wear for, say, a wedding. He did this to show he was not some kind of "toff", which otherwise he could easily have passed for, having excellent social skills and manners. That was very common in those days.

 

Edited to add:

 

His stance was very much approved of and copied by family and friends of his generation.

Less so by the following generation, who were not content with the social divide and challenged it - with results we all now see:  a more equal society, and a very much toned down "First Class".

Edited November 27, 2018 by Forester

[Wickham Green]

Remember the Two Ronnies' famous sketch ended with the words: "I know my place!"

 

 

Frost Report ??!? ....... actually THREE Ronnies including Ronnie John Cleese.

[The Stationmaster]

In my early adult lifetime (the 70s) steerage-class passengers who wished to dine were welcomed in accommodation marked first class. A good wheeze that - the breakfast on the Euston - Liverpool train enabled one to sit with the rich (and those on expenses) virtually all the way, with endless coffee and toast.

 

And indeed earlier.  The trick being to go to the Second sitting and simply stay in the diner until journey's end - used to work beautifully southbound on the GN mainline.

There was, of course ONE train where 'those with' were locked separate from 'those without' .......... the essential requirement being a sleeper ticket on the Night Ferry : adjacent dining facilities were provided in both halves of the train but no through access was permitted.

 

But no difference by the 1970s as all you got heading southwards from London was a single catering vehicle.  What was sort of separated from the rest was the sleeper vehicles - so it was separation by having a sleeping berth rather than by class.

[LBRJ]

The eating habits of different classes of passengers would make an interesting Social Studies project.  Back in my time, the 70s, at Canton we ran mystery excursions; great fun and value for money and very well patronised by valleys residents; they usually started from Rhymni or Treherbert very early in the morning, picked up all stations to Cardiff via what is now the 'City' line, and got back very late at night.  The patrons would stock themselves up for the full day, with flasks, sandwiches, beer and ciggies, and settle in to a compartment or seating bay in an open.  Many would leave their supplies for the homeward journey in their seats while the train was stabled at it's destination, though the railway made it clear that this was at their own risk.  Main meal would be fish'n'chips at the destination, but apart from that they were entirely self sufficient and self catering, to the extent of some of them bringing their own toilet paper in case their coach ran out.  All were hardened campaigners seasoned in the art of Mystex.

 

One might have thought that a buffet on such a train would have made a mint, but it wouldn't; everybody had already brought their own stuff and any on train catering would have been ignored, except perhaps a bar on the way back!

 

There was no first class; such a thing was not only not required, it would have been very seriously against the spirit of the enterprise!

 

Now I have Hymns & Arias by Max Boyce ringing around my head!

[The Johnster]

Didn't need much to start 'em singing on the return journey; you're not too far off the mark LBRJ!  The anklebiters'd be exhausted by this time; they'd been on the go since about 5.30 in the morning and it was now getting on for midnight as we dropped off all the way up whatever valley it was that night, and you could divide them as follows; anklebiters - asleep in various comedy angles, teenagers - snogging (ditto comedy angles), women - gossiping, men - drinking.  Everybody - happy!

 

I rather liked working mystex, both outward and homeward bound.

[Fat Controller]

Remember the Two Ronnies' famous sketch ended with the words: "I know my place!"

 

Ordinary folk tended to avoid First Class areas by choice, and not necessarily because they felt inferior.

 

Indeed there was a kind of inverse snobbery which lead many people to try to be clearly seen as Not being First Class.

 

My Dad, proud of being an ordinary guy, would dress always smartly with a collar and tie and a jacket when going out but would refuse point blank to wear a suit for any occasion let alone formal wear for, say, a wedding. He did this to show he was not some kind of "toff", which otherwise he could easily have passed for, having excellent social skills and manners. That was very common in those days.

 

Edited to add:

 

His stance was very much approved of and copied by family and friends of his generation.

Less so by the following generation, who were not content with the social divide and challenged it - with results we all now see:  a more equal society, and a very much toned down "First Class".

I remember a girlfriend telling me how easy it was to spot the posh boys during the first couple of days at Uni. They'd be wearing carefully distressed and patched jeans,  Ben Sherman shirts and desert boots, whereas the rest of us would have an uncomfortably new sports jacket, bri-nylon shirt and cotton-polyester trousers, with some highly-polished shoes to finish.

[Oldddudders]

I remember a girlfriend telling me how easy it was to spot the posh boys during the first couple of days at Uni. They'd be wearing carefully distressed and patched jeans,  Ben Sherman shirts and desert boots, whereas the rest of us would have an uncomfortably new sports jacket, bri-nylon shirt and cotton-polyester trousers, with some highly-polished shoes to finish.

I am so glad I went straight from A Levels into the railway at 17!

[62613]

Frost Report ??!? ....... actually THREE Ronnies including Ronnie John Cleese.

That Was The Week That Was

[Wickham Green]

That Was The Week That Was

indeed it was .........

[Wickham Green]

.............

 

One might have thought that a buffet on such a train would have made a mint, but it wouldn't; .................................

I heard of one AwayDay excursion that had a full kitchen on board ................................. one of the volunteer crew arranged for a brief out of course stop at his old home station and his dad loaded freshly-built kitchen units into the van for delivery up country !

[Andy Hayter]

Thanks for all these replies. I suppose that I was really wondering to what extent the railway would have tried to indulge the "disapproving looks and harrumphs" (an accurate description, I'd have thought).

 

 

Jim

 

Back in the 70s I had a colleague who regularly travelled from London to Scotland for the weekend to enjoy a weekend climbing and walking.

He always bought a 1st class ticket.

The train contained a couple of sleeping cars so he was virtually guaranteed the compartment to himself since any first class passenger would have booked a sleeper place. 

He would lay out his sleeping bag and make himself comfortable - in the knowledge that he was probably getting a more comfortable ride and that the ticket inspector who expected to hoy him out or charge him some exorbitant fine was in for a surprise. 

[The Johnster]

This is similar in principle to a friend who regularly uses the Fishguard-Rosslare overnight ferry; he can afford a cabin but is pathologically mean (one of the reasons he can afford a cabin, of course), and makes his own bed in the children's soft play area out of the cubes and shapes, sleeping peacefully, comfortably, and undisturbed well away from the great unwashed.

[Jim Martin]

This is similar in principle to a friend who regularly uses the Fishguard-Rosslare overnight ferry; he can afford a cabin but is pathologically mean (one of the reasons he can afford a cabin, of course), and makes his own bed in the children's soft play area out of the cubes and shapes, sleeping peacefully, comfortably, and undisturbed well away from the great unwashed.

I've seen something similar on the Portsmouth to Caen ferry. Rather than paying for a cabin (quite comfy-looking but pricey) or the reclining seat (cheaper but not all that easy to sleep in), the experienced voyagers set to marking out territories in the lounges, under stairways, beneath tables, behind plant pots etc. I walked around the ship in the small hours (see comment on reclining seat, above) and every corner had been claimed as part of someone's empire: some of them amazingly elaborate.

 

Jim

[rockershovel]

Back in the 70s I had a colleague who regularly travelled from London to Scotland for the weekend to enjoy a weekend climbing and walking.

He always bought a 1st class ticket.

The train contained a couple of sleeping cars so he was virtually guaranteed the compartment to himself since any first class passenger would have booked a sleeper place. 

He would lay out his sleeping bag and make himself comfortable - in the knowledge that he was probably getting a more comfortable ride and that the ticket inspector who expected to hoy him out or charge him some exorbitant fine was in for a surprise.

 

I would occasionally travel overnight from Paddington to Camborne (Cornwall) in the 70s. Travelling up to Town on Friday was an afternoon/evening affair, usually very crowded, quite fast, usually with then-modern blue/grey stock. There may even have been 125HST (I left Camborne in 1978) but I don’t recall. The overnight return journey was a different matter, usually elderly compartment-stock LHCS, much slower and largely empty. The trick was to find an empty compartment, stretch out and sleep. You would then be rudely awoken at Bristol, as the train filled with matelots returning to Plymouth from leave, and sleep again after Plymouth.

 

I never had a sleeping bag! The then-universal student uniform of Army Surplus greatcoat answered, though...