Iron Ore Hoppers in Departmental Service

[Pixie]

Greetings all,

 

Earlier on today, I was looking at Bachmann's 24T deaprtmental ex-iron ore hopper (in rather sexy gulf red) whilst having a lunch time browse around Ian Allan. I know there was one on the Isle of Wight (which I think is the prototype modelled by Bachmann) but were there any on the mainland?

 

Boomshanka,

 

Pix

['CHARD]

Tell you what... I've been searching all known sites with every combination of probable search-word combo's and can't find anything remotely useful. So, I'm going with the theory that ScR CCE's 'ES' division (Edinburgh Sth) used a couple during '68. They knocked about the upper reaches of the Waverley Route, obviously

 

On a related tack, does anyone have a view to the accuracy of the colour rendition? I'll be retouching my HJ 'Gulf' Dogfish in due course - it's positively neon compared to the 24-tonner

[Pixie]

Here's the IoW one: http://dennistaylor..../p58788543.html. There's another photo of it in a book as well, possibly the old Bradford Barton Departmental Wagons one by Larkin.

 

Pix

[rope runner]

They used them on sand trains on occasion after the iron ore business ended, but this ended after a few years, as the wagons sides tended to "go" (corrode) at the bottom of the side plate, resulting in alot of sand lost etc

 

They also used some in departmental sectors, but i believe they were mainly rusty with a black data pannel painted over the rust.

The code is ZKO

there's probably pictures somewhere online, if you google it

 

Hope this hleps.

 

EDIT: i see you mean hopper wagons not "tipplers"

my mistake!

['CHARD]

Here's the IoW one: http://dennistaylor..../p58788543.html. There's another photo of it in a book as well, possibly the old Bradford Barton Departmental Wagons one by Larkin.

 

Pix

 

I'm working out in the garage ATM, so I'll check the BB for the pic - although saying that, I reckon the wagon may not have gone on its IoW retreat until after the Larkin was in print...

 

Anyways, the one in the photo has been modded somewhat - steps, and side sheets to give extra height. Looks like I might be dealing with a fiction, dammit (Muttley noises, off)

[Jenny Emily]

As a question, what exactly were they used for in departmental service? Was the colour really quite as neon as the Bachmann model? It looks rather strange in pristine red.

[James]

As a question, what exactly were they used for in departmental service?

 

Just a guess, but I'd say for ballast. The sides have an extension, I wonder if this was for something like slag ballast, or evn shingle ballast given the wagon's location.

[37079]

The Larkin BB picture is of DP335485 at Scunthorpe. It has the same mods as the IOW one above and is quoted as being in bauxite with black solebar and white lettering, and is branded 'SLAG BALLAST - TO BE RETURNED TO SANTON G.C.'

 

Mike

[Pennine MC]

As a question, what exactly were they used for in departmental service? Was the colour really quite as neon as the Bachmann model? It looks rather strange in pristine red.

 

 

Just a guess, but I'd say for ballast. The sides have an extension, I wonder if this was for something like slag ballast, or evn shingle ballast given the wagon's location.

 

They were for slag ballast - Dave's caption in the BB confirms as much - and the upper raves were very similar to those on slag ballast Dogfish. There was a smallish batch converted (maybe 50 OTTOMH), all ex-PO examples rather than BR built

 

I'd sound a note of caution against running away with the idea that they were Gulf Red (the oft-supposed prevalence of which is another potential myth, IMHO). I think Dave says they were bauxite and the pics I have of the IoW one (although well faded) would also suggest that. To me, 'pukka' Gulf Red is a definite red, not a brown, and fades to a pink. I'd also think that the IoW example had been repainted at some point (again in bauxite/Freight Brown), as there's no sign of a patch under the data panel

[Mark Saunders]

DP Ballast Hoppers (ex PO Iron Ore Hoppers, Chas Roberts type)

 

The conversion was for ballast and as can be seen the greedy rails are to make them suitable for Slag Ballast as per the Dogfish.

 

The platform on the side allows a platelayer to ride on the wagon and drop the ballast on the move using the wheel in the centre.

 

Underneath the wagon on the right of centre can be seen the chute from the door.

 

The only thing I am unsure about is was the discharge platform and wheel on one side only or was it the same on both sides.

 

There was a good photo in a Model Rail about 4 years ago showing 5 or so in a ballast train in Bauxite rather than Gulf Red.

 

Shame the Bachmann Model is 4mm too long and lacks the discharge modification!

 

Mark Saunders

[James]

'SLAG BALLAST - TO BE RETURNED TO SANTON G.C.'

 

Makes perfect sense - slag ballast is much less dense than normal ballast. I think BR used it in sidings. It's horrible stuff really, well it certainly is now! It seems to have more dust than granite ballast in my experience, but lads prefer it in some ways - it's easier to shovel and much easier to walk on, 'OAP ballast' as one of Grants' lads always called it!

 

To model it, it looks like normal ballast but it seems to hold on to dirt as it's porus (sp?) in nature.

[James]

They were for slag ballast - Dave's caption in the BB confirms as much - and the upper raves were very similar to those on slag ballast Dogfish. There was a smallish batch converted (maybe 50 OTTOMH), all ex-PO examples rather than BR built.

 

Ian, were the Dogfish conversions the ones discussed on the old RMweb? The ones were a local manager was praised for his idea for the extra height on the hopper body?

[Pennine MC]

Ian, were the Dogfish conversions the ones discussed on the old RMweb? The ones were a local manager was praised for his idea for the extra height on the hopper body?

 

Yes they were, in one of my WB threads. For ER/NER use, although I believe the WR and SR also took on the idea

 

The only thing I am unsure about is was the discharge platform and wheel on one side only or was it the same on both sides.

 

There was a good photo in a Model Rail about 4 years ago showing 5 or so in a ballast train in Bauxite rather than Gulf Red.

 

 

Forgot to mention that pic - it was one of the Noel Ingram collection, I was looking at it a week or two ago. I think there were four, and they were mixed with some of the similarly-modded Dogfish

 

I'm pretty sure the platform was only on one side, but cant recall the source of that info

[Pixie]

Thanks for the replies gents.

 

Serendipity struck today whilst looking in Smiths. The May issue of Backtrack, on page 311, has an 8F on a ballast trains and whilst the majority are dogfish, the first two vehicles are converted iron ore hoppers. Whilst I know that colour is never certain in aging photographs, they do look very red...

 

Pix

[Pennine MC]

. The May issue of Backtrack, on page 311, has an 8F on a ballast trains and whilst the majority are dogfish, the first two vehicles are converted iron ore hoppers. Whilst I know that colour is never certain in aging photographs, they do look very red...

 

 

They do indeed Pix, and whilst I'd stand by my earlier general observation that Gulf Red isnt as common as oft thought, I do think you're on the money there. The photo is dated 1963 and when I get home, I'll check the precise dates of its application (unless Mr Bartlett sees this first , as he wrote the article I'll be checking)

[Pennine MC]

... when I get home, I'll check the precise dates of its application (unless Mr Bartlett sees this first , as he wrote the article I'll be checking)

 

Said article now checked - it's in Modellers BackTrack although I cant give the issue number as my copy is long-filleted. Paul gives a date of March 1960 for an amendment in instructions (Gulf Red in lieu of black) and says that by Jan 1963 they were completely revised and showed olive drab. Olive had actually been introduced via a memo in May 1962 pending a firm decision for 1963 (take note of that last, cos it gets asked regularly).

 

As the wagons in the current mag pic are fairly clean, they could well be 1962 Gulf Red repaints; OTTOMH it's the clearest shot I can remember seeing of recently-painted red wagons. Also noticeable in Paul's article is that wagons such as S&T opens/bolsters and brakes remain distinctly red or deep pink even into the 80s, whereas the Herring and Catfish pictured (obviously more prone to loading and environmental discoloration) do have a browner hue (plus underlying rust) which could be taken for bauxite

['CHARD]

Thanks for that definitive contribution - excellent! For my own personal and dubious ends, it means my hunch was correct, that for the '68 high season, I can field a varied fleet of black, red and olive, appropriately weathered and in relative proportions. I'm delighted (I know, easily pleased - must be my age).

 

PS - what's happened to your Aztec Camera signature?

[Pennine MC]

Thanks for that definitive contribution - excellent!

 

No probs, thank Mr Bartlett really - all I did was climb two flights of stairs to get it. I do tend to soak up and collate this sort of information, but it has to be there to start with from the real researchers

 

... for the '68 high season, I can field a varied fleet of black, red and olive, appropriately weathered and in relative proportions.

I should add it's subject to caveats previously made, that olive doesnt seem to have caught on that quickly and that Gulf was also pretty uncommon, relatively speaking - applied to certain new types (and conversions) during that 1960 - 62/possibly '63 period, plus a few repaints

PS - what's happened to your Aztec Camera signature?

 

Absolutely NFI, mate. Getting tired of fighting this software

[cctransuk]

They were for slag ballast - Dave's caption in the BB confirms as much - and the upper raves were very similar to those on slag ballast Dogfish. There was a smallish batch converted (maybe 50 OTTOMH), all ex-PO examples rather than BR built

 

I'd sound a note of caution against running away with the idea that they were Gulf Red (the oft-supposed prevalence of which is another potential myth, IMHO). I think Dave says they were bauxite and the pics I have of the IoW one (although well faded) would also suggest that. To me, 'pukka' Gulf Red is a definite red, not a brown, and fades to a pink. I'd also think that the IoW example had been repainted at some point (again in bauxite/Freight Brown), as there's no sign of a patch under the data panel

 

Look at page 311 in the current (May) edition of Backtrack magazine.

 

You'll find a photo of a ballast train with, immediately behind the loco, two newly-outshopped slag ballast (ex-iron ore) hoppers in what is clearly Gulf Red. I'd guess that they have only recently been converted to ballst hoppers.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Pennine MC]

Look at page 311 in the current (May) edition of Backtrack magazine.

 

 

 

I did John, which is why I made these two later posts correcting myself

[cctransuk]

I did John, which is why I made these two later posts correcting myself

 

Oops, sorry - I was on holiday when you posted that.

 

I remembered the OP when I saw Backtrack today.

 

Ah well - better the information twice than not ay all !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[mophead]

"Shame the Bachmann Model is 4mm too long and lacks the discharge modification!"

 

is this a problem in the body or chassis? as im currently planned to model the wagon below for my industrial layout

http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p50782988.html

 

sorry for hijacking this thread

 

mophead

[cctransuk]

"Shame the Bachmann Model is 4mm too long and lacks the discharge modification!"

 

is this a problem in the body or chassis? as im currently planned to model the wagon below for my industrial layout

http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p50782988.html

 

sorry for hijacking this thread

 

mophead

 

Both, I believe.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[37079]

There is a really detailed article by Geoff Kent that covers converting it to scale length in Model Railway Journal 182.