Barnstaple line coach formations

[AdeMoore]

Folks I’ve delved into Chris’s topic Southern Maunsell Coaching Stock discussion and found what I should be looking at I think!. e.g. a four coach set 90% of the time would have a Maunsell 6-compartment brake third (BTK) but studying one of those here https://www.newmodellersshop.co.uk/images/Trains/coaches/r4737.jpg

I don’t match that with my photos, thinking perhaps wrongly that if there are two in a four coach set my photos should show at least one. As no photo shows all four coaches it’s natural to assume one of the other three would be a BTK. I’ve tried locating the coach next to the loco in all but one shot the window arrangement goes Door 4 x windows door 2 x windows door luggage doors I think! No luck there on eBay or anywhere I can Goofle is there one made? So what I really need to know is what and if RTR models are available to replicate any of the photos I have of trains heading to or from Barnstaple Town.

All help appreciated.

Photos below.

 

[Dunsignalling]

The coaches in those pictures are all Bulleid and BR Mk1 (Photos 1 and 4) so are taken after Maunsell sets had ceased to be used on the line.

 

Last photo looks like the first three coaches of a Bulleid 5-set (usually BSK+SK+CK+SK+BSK but occasionally BSK+SK+SK+CK+BSK).

 

Note that a "normal" four coach formation on the Southern Region in the West Country would generally have been a 3-set (BSK+CK+BSK) with a "strengthener" (a SK or SO from the pool of "loose stock") added to one end as in Photo 1. In winter, the extra coach would often be omitted. 

 

There were self-contained Mk1 4-sets on the Western Section of the Southern for a while (BSK+CK+SK+BSK) but later reduced to three (SK removed), and this probably occurred before Mk1s became commonplace on the Barnstaple line, so this "rule" should apply whether the stock is Maunsell, Bulleid or Mk.1,    

 

Note that your pictures 2 and 3 (the ones with the BR Standard tank loco) are of a railtour train so should not be taken as being representative of a normal service formation.

 

So yes, if running Maunsell stock, you should have two 6-compartment brakes (van ends outward) with a composite between, plus a corridor second, usually coupled at the Barnstaple end. An open second might show up now and again but they were more commonly to be seen added immediately behind the tender in longer expresses.

 

Hope this helps

 

John

Edited December 7, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Killybegs]

Takes me back to holidays in North Devon as a kid.

[Wickham Green]

 

The coaches in those pictures are all Bulleid and BR Mk1 (Photo 4) so are taken after the Maunsell stock had ceased to be used on the line.

 

................ 3-set (BSK+CK+BSK) with a "strengthener" (a SK or SO from the pool of "loose stock") added to one end as in Photo 1.

 

 

John

 

I THINK the leading coach in photo 1 is actually a late Maunsell Open Third Second ?

[Oldddudders]

I THINK the leading coach in photo 1 is actually a late Maunsell Open Third Second ?

Did they have sliding toplights?

[Wickham Green]

Did they have sliding toplights?

Sorry I can't quote chapter and diagram* but yes, the 1935/6 types did - unlike the earlier 'droplight' style.

 

* My library is at home - I'm not !

[chris45lsw]

Did they have sliding toplights?

Diagram 2005 of 1930 and 1933 (as made by Hornby) did not (the whole window was a droplight).

 

But the Diag. 2007 open thirds of 1935 and 1936 (second from June 1956) did have sliding vents, similar to a 4 Cor EMU motor coach.  The leading coach in photo 1 is, indeed, one of these Diag. 2007s.

 

Chris KT

[Dunsignalling]

I THINK the leading coach in photo 1 is actually a late Maunsell Open Third Second ?

It is indeed but, as others have pointed out, not the sort Hornby have done.

 

By the time of that photo (I'd put it at 1962 or thereabouts), they would have been displaced from express strengthening use by Bulleid opens, and they were some of the last Maunsell coaches to remain in traffic after the 30-year+ scrappage order was issued.

 

John

Edited December 7, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Wickham Green]

It is indeed but, as others have pointed out, not the sort Hornby have done.

 

By the time of that photo (I'd put it at 1962 or thereabouts), they would have been displaced from express strengthening use by Bulleid opens, and they were some of the last Maunsell coaches to remain in traffic after the 30-year+ scrappage order was issued.

 

John

Indeed it isn't the sort Hornby have done ..... nor, so far as I can see, any sort that anyone on this thread has even vaguely hinted that Hornby had done ..........

[bécasse]

That photo is certainly 1962 or later. The Mk1 3-set doesn't have a set number (but is clearly a set) so the photo has to have been taken after the set numbers were abolished and painted out. Mk1s were generally kept in their original sets, Maunsells, and to a slightly lesser extent Bulleids, became mixed up to a much greater extent as individual vehicles were taken out of service because they needed repairs which weren't authorised on cost grounds. Many Maunsells disappeared simply because of their age.

[Dunsignalling]

That photo is certainly 1962 or later. The Mk1 3-set doesn't have a set number (but is clearly a set) so the photo has to have been taken after the set numbers were abolished and painted out. Mk1s were generally kept in their original sets, Maunsells, and to a slightly lesser extent Bulleids, became mixed up to a much greater extent as individual vehicles were taken out of service because they needed repairs which weren't authorised on cost grounds. Many Maunsells disappeared simply because of their age.

AFAIK The working of SR coaches in formal sets wasn't abolished until 1965, by which time (IIRC) passenger services from Exeter to Barnstaple had been fully "Westernised" using NBL Type 2 diesels.

 

On reflection, I suspect the photo to have been taken in 1963, and the Mk1 3-set to be one transferred to the WR along with the SR lines in the West Country on 1st January that year. These customarily had the set numbers painted out along with a new W prefix for the coach numbers to mark the change of "ownership". The WR generally withdrew any inherited Maunsell stock pretty quickly so I doubt the photo was taken any later than 1963.  

 

BR adopted a policy c1958/9 of withdrawing all coaches over 30 years old, which did for all the older Maunsells and led to the very late conversion of some of the youngest ones into pull-push sets (as modelled by Hornby) to replace pre-group sets that were for the chop. The 30-year rule meant they were clearly only required to last 4 or 5 years until they and the M7 and H class 0-4-4Ts that worked them would be replaced with DEMus.

 

John

Edited December 7, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[AdeMoore]

Thanks all for your input still witchcraft to me!

So to model those rakes.

I need.

“Last photo looks like the first three coaches of a Bulleid 5-set (usually BSK+SK+CK+SK+BSK but occasionally BSK+SK+SK+CK+BSK)”.

I can research but you guys probably already know if they are available or not?

So I know the Maunsell open second is not available. The rest are MK 1s? In BR green? again where would you buy these guessing they are available?

Sorry to sound fik but locos I’m ok on coaches no idea!

Cheers

Ade

[Oldddudders]

Maunsells are by Hornby, while Bulleids are by Bachmann, but the quality is very different, with the latter being a bit out of date, really. Bachmann are said to be retooling the Bulleids, and when they appear they will be excellent, I am sure. But in the meantime they are very available on ebay at sensible prices. I am unclear where the best Mk 1s come from.

[Wickham Green]

BR adopted a policy c1958/9 of withdrawing all coaches over 30 years old, which did for all the older Maunsells and led to the very late conversion of some of the youngest ones into pull-push sets (as modelled by Hornby) to replace pre-group sets that were for the chop. The 30-year rule meant they were clearly only required to last 4 or 5 years until they and the M7 and H class 0-4-4Ts that worked them would be replaced with DEMus.

 

John

IF they'd wanted to produce Pull & Push sets from the youngest Maunsells they'd have taken the 1935/6 Opens ( as photo 1 ) rather than the earlier ones they did actually select .......... as it is, the sets sets hat to be condemned or disbanded when the Opens reached their - not so happy - thirtieth birthday and only a few of the Brakes lingered for a while as 'hauled' stock ( Hayling Island branch at least ).

[Dunsignalling]

IF they'd wanted to produce Pull & Push sets from the youngest Maunsells they'd have taken the 1935/6 Opens ( as photo 1 ) rather than the earlier ones they did actually select .......... as it is, the sets sets hat to be condemned or disbanded when the Opens reached their - not so happy - thirtieth birthday and only a few of the Brakes lingered for a while as 'hauled' stock ( Hayling Island branch at least ).

The later (Dia. 2007) ones were still being used as main-line strengtheners in 1959 (and later) and some of the newer ones to the earlier diagram dated from 1933 which (at the time) may well have been expected to be sufficient to cover their anticipated usage.

 

John

Edited December 10, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[TheSignalEngineer]

Scouring the CWNs it appears that the last 18 Maunsell SO in the loose stock must have been withdrawn around the end of the 1963 season. They were still plentiful in 1961. 

I'm not sure what diagrams link up with what numbers but the late survivors were spread virtually across the whole range from 1285 to 1450

[Mallard60022]

Are you after formations that ran through Barnstable and around what date (s)?  I have quite a lot of info of actual formations but only for 1958 1961and some for other dates in that era. I also have loads of pics of actual trains in that neck of the woods. You can produce coaches you want from replacing sides on existing stock. There are several folk on here that can advise you about doing that. P

Phil

Edited February 10, 2019 by Mallard60022

[PeteN92]

10 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Are you after formations that ran through Barnstable and around what date (s)?  I have quite a lot of info of actual formations but only for 1958 1961and some for other dates in that era. I also have loads of pics of actual trains in that neck of the woods. You can produce coaches you want from replacing sides on existing stock. There are several folk on here that can advise you about doing that. P

Phil

Phil, 

       that kind of information would also be useful to me, any chance of a PM with the info or posting it to this topic?

 

Cheers

Pete 

      

[AdeMoore]

23 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Are you after formations that ran through Barnstable and around what date (s)?  I have quite a lot of info of actual formations but only for 1958 1961and some for other dates in that era. I also have loads of pics of actual trains in that neck of the woods. You can produce coaches you want from replacing sides on existing stock. There are several folk on here that can advise you about doing that. P

Phil

Phil amazing info and if you have photos to, I’d be more than pleased to see what you have.

post away!

cheers for the input.

Ade

[Compound2632]

See also...

 

[AdeMoore]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

See also...

 

Perfect Stephen thanks for the link will watch with interest.

 Cheers 

Ade