TrainController good or not so good

[Haymarket47]

Java - on the way out? Better tell the millions of developers using it, not to mention that the web runs on it. Oracle has changed the licencing model for developers and that means that some of their development kits need updating to meet the current security demands, but that  doesn't mean Java is 'on the way out'.

Hi, I’m not an expert by any means on how the web works. The point I was trying to make is that my browsers do not support it. If they don’t support it then i am unable to install Itrain - what’s your thoughts/advice as it is clear that Java is not going to be supported by modern browsers.

 

Thanks

[jamespetts]

Javascript as used by web browsers is quite different to installing the Java Runtime Engine needed to run desktop software. iTrain has nothing to do with your browser, so your browser does not need to support Java for you to get iTrain to work.

[WIMorrison]

You have me rather confused - iTrain doesnt run in a browser, what is it that you trying to run, or why do you think it needs a browser?

 

You have need to install Java which for you is free from https://www.java.com/en/ (assuming your computer doesn't already have it installed - I wonder if you are getting confused with Flash which is very insecure?

[Haymarket47]

Javascript as used by web browsers is quite different to installing the Java Runtime Engine needed to run desktop software. iTrain has nothing to do with your browser, so your browser does not need to support Java for you to get iTrain to work.

Javascript as used by web browsers is quite different to installing the Java Runtime Engine needed to run desktop software. iTrain has nothing to do with your browser, so your browser does not need to support Java for you to get iTrain to work.

Hi James

 

Thanks for highlighting the difference. Whilst I use computer software programmes a lot I haven’t a great deal of knowledge about web operations and operating platforms etc etc When I go to install Itrain the software redirects me to the Java website and that’s when I get the browser message. I’ll try again.

 

Alan

[Haymarket47]

Hi James/Iain

 

I’m in. The warning that comes up when redirected to the Java website from the Itrain installer relates to the JavaScript as you suggested James. What wasn’t clear in the warning message was that you still have the ability to download the “run time engine” regardless of the issue with JavaScript and at the time I didn’t really fully appreciate the difference - clearly I have a handle on it now

 

Thank you both for your prompt feedback - most appreciated.

 

Cheers

Alan

[model-trains]

Hi, I downloaded and had a quick browse of the itrain manual and off I went to download a trial version of Itrain and got nowhere fast. Apparently Java seems to be needed and by all accounts it seems to be a product on the way out. My browsers Firefox and Edge do not support it, something to do with, inter Alia, security issues such as malware attacks. I could use Explorer but I am concerned that this will eventually be obsolete and I’ve been there before with no support and it’s not a good place to be. I wonder if the itrain developers are working to overcome this? Can anybody shed light on this?

 

Thanks

Alan

 

 

Hi Alan,

 

Java is not on its way out, it is in billions of items, not just computers and laptops, but in mobile phones, appliances even cars. It is everywhere.

 

For iTrain I just loaded the latest Java update when it asked me to and was then able to load and run it straight away.

 

Once you get iTrain loaded register for the trial version which gives you 2 months unrestricted use. I started on the first download when I did it and it has a lot of restrictions, you must register for the 2 month free trial version . 

Edited December 28, 2018 by model-trains

[Haymarket47]

Hi Alan,

 

Java is not on its way out, it is in billions of items, not just computers and laptops, but in mobile phones, appliances even cars. It is everywhere.

 

For iTrain I just loaded the latest Java update when it asked me to and was then able to load and run it straight away.

 

Once you get iTrain loaded register for the trial version which gives you 2 months unrestricted use. I started on the first download when I did it and it has a lot of restrictions, you must register for the 2 month free trial version .

 

Thanks, I’ll register for the free 2 month trial. I noticed that I was limited to only 3 locomotives.

 

Cheers

Alan

[model-trains]

As I continue to learn more about TrainController and iTrain, it soon becomes obvious, after getting the layout designed and added with address' for turn outs, signals, sensors and level crossing that both packages are designed more for Europe, especially with signals, yet UK has been in the EU since 1973! 

 

Summing up the little I have learned so far; both packages are totally different in what they do and how they achieve it. Both packages are great to get started with and can look impressive on screen, if you are learning either or both these packages on the trial period, be sure to use every hour you can before making a decision which is best for you.

 

Back to my trial versions, I need to go deeper, 30 days with TrainController is slipping away fast, 2 months (after registering) with iTrain is a lot longer but... there is a lot to learn. 

 

Recommendation: If you are a beginner, about to download iTrain, download the restricted trial version, and don't register yet. Play with it for one week, get the feel of it, plan a small segment of track with turn outs, couple of sidings either end, add sensors and signals, see how it works, then register for your 2 month trial, it starts from registering the software, that first week playing with the restricted version will give you an head start with your 2 months unrestricted trial. 

[RFS]

Bear in mind you can run Traincontroller in demo mode indefinitely when it's not connected to the layout. With that mode you can run the simulator which is very good for testing out changes, updates etc. 

 

And if you are worried about signals, spare a thought for the modellers of Swiss layouts where signal operation is considerably more complicated!

[WIMorrison]

A bit of advice that I would offer is that you should really tie yourself up with someone who knows the products - both of them discussed here are complex and if you get the basics wrong then you will get the wrong experience of the products.

 

I have been informed by the author of iTrain that UK signals are on the list for release with iTrain 5 which is supposed to be next year. Though people are managing to create UK signalling in both packages. I think that the lack of UK signalling pretty much across the board shows the lack of UK modellers using computer control to the extent these products offer whereas in Mainland EU they have a very mature modelling fraternity using these products hence the past focus on their needs.

[model-trains]

A bit of advice that I would offer is that you should really tie yourself up with someone who knows the products - both of them discussed here are complex and if you get the basics wrong then you will get the wrong experience of the products.

 

I have been informed by the author of iTrain that UK signals are on the list for release with iTrain 5 which is supposed to be next year. Though people are managing to create UK signalling in both packages. I think that the lack of UK signalling pretty much across the board shows the lack of UK modellers using computer control to the extent these products offer whereas in Mainland EU they have a very mature modelling fraternity using these products hence the past focus on their needs.

 

Hello Iain

 

Good advice, signalling is quite complex, that said this thread is comparing TrainController and iTrain, signalling is there an important consideration when comparing the two.

 

I posted on a thread in the iTrain forum yesterday and got a prompt reply stating, as you have said, UK signalling should be in iTrain 5 in 2019.

 

Meanwhile I have found the 3 NS Home signal 3 aspect does work and for shut signals I have included the SBB L signals, not exact UK shunt ground signals but they look the part for now and do work. These signals also go to the left hand side of the track, unlike TrainController which shows one aspect on the end of the block in the middle of the track.

 

There is a lot to learn, a lot to compare. 

[jamespetts]

Interesting to note the forthcoming iTrain 5. Does anyone have any idea whether this will have the abstraction features of TrainController Gold (the variables, the ability to set schedules to start with one of a number of trains and to run to and from one of a number of start/end points, etc.)?

[WIMorrison]

If you can find out what is going to be in iTrain 5 please tell me as Xander is tightlipped only letting out tantalising titbits here and there but isn't releasing a full spec - sensible I suggest as that would simply alert the competition to what he is developing.

 

I don't think he is any different from Herr Freiwald in that respect, however he will at least confirm whether something is in scope or not, such as UK signalling and NCE

[model-trains]

If you can find out what is going to be in iTrain 5 please tell me as Xander is tightlipped only letting out tantalising titbits here and there but isn't releasing a full spec - sensible I suggest as that would simply alert the competition to what he is developing.

 

I don't think he is any different from Herr Freiwald in that respect, however he will at least confirm whether something is in scope or not, such as UK signalling and NCE

 

 

Xander seems very fair, he appears to say things as they are, it is coming, it is not. As for being tight lipped I think that is very sensible, we are like kids with toys (bog boys toys), tell us something is coming in August and we would be chasing him by September for updates and to know when.

[beast66606]

With RR&Co gold it's possible to draw your own signals, I drew British shunt signals (colour light and semaphore) and running line semaphore signals. For colour lights I used a piece of straight track as a post and mounted a colour light head on it.

 

Here's an intermediate version with a theatre B for bay, left and right hand feathers and shunt and ground signals.

I no longer use RR so this is the latest I've got.

 

 

With some work British signalling is possible, Widnes had approach controlled signals, full aspect control, slotting, flashing aspects, a SPADI and full interlocking - all operated from an NX panel.

 

I'd certainly echo the advice given above about using flags when events happen and then triggering other things when those flags are set, possibly conditional.

 

eg.

 

A route is set out of a track with a 3-aspect signal, this clears it to yellow if the flagman for the next signal is not set (so the signal is red), or if the flagman is set the signal steps up to green.

 

As John said ^ ^ I started a thread on British signalling with RR but at the time there was very little interest and so I lost interest (sorry John)

[Perth General Station]

Hi. I have Train Controller Silver and it seems to have all I need for my layout based on Perth station (under construction!) including NX style route setting which also clears the signals.

The inbuilt block signals on Train Controller can be set to 3 aspect but they do not follow uk signalling practice. I have used the optional accessory signals on TC to which you can add your own logic (triggers and conditions) to create both automatic signals and controlled signals. This is organised in a way that the signals work either through manual route setting, or automatically by the computer.

Sounds complicated but I am no expert and I have managed to set it up although quite time consuming.

I have used Digitrax hardware including BDL168 occupation sensors and SE8c point and signal decoders. You can use any proprietors signals connected to the decoder and it will follow the instructions on which aspect to display.

BIG qualification ————- I have all the boards and electrics fitted and have tested them but am only now about to lay track!!! ———-. Will let you know if it all works in practice in a few weeks time!

[Andymsa]

Ok where to start,

 

As a traincontroller user for many years it is what I know, I have looked at I-Train and did find it harder to setup but that said I am probably being influenced by traincontroller. Your going the right way trying them both and it's all down to what you want to do, but I'm now doing things in Traincontroller that I never expected to so bear that in mind on possible future things you might want to do. I have read about uk signals it's not that hard to design your own and you can use extended accessories in TC to do this if normal signals won't work. But I think you could use the normal signals in TC to do uk signals with a new image for it.

 

Another thing that TC does at present I-Train doesn't at present is display the train image in blocks

 

To be honest this is a subject that has no end and you can go into the virtues of both, bottom line go with what your most comfortable wth with regard to price, versiltilty, ease of use and support. One thing to note there are an excellent set of videos on TC and an active forum too. That said I'm sure I-train is a good program as well and it's good there is choice now. As to jmri my initial look at this I felt it was hard to get to grips with.

 

I'll be more than happy to talk off list if you require more help

[5BarVT]

unlike TrainController which shows one aspect on the end of the block in the middle of the track.

Hi model-trains,

I use TC and have recently upgraded from Silver to Gold (15% was what triggered the jump!).

The quote above has been mentioned a couple of times and isn’t quite true. One thing that appears to mislead is the two different types of ‘signal’ in TC: there is a ‘internal signal’ associated with each exit from a block which can be set to display on the end of the block symbol. This does have to be in-line with the track, but all it is doing is giving a visual output of whether TC intends to run or stop the train at the end of the block. The display of these signals can be turned off (switchboard customisation) and that is how I have my display.

There are also signal accessories which can be placed anywhere in the switchboard, so mine are placed to the left (or right) of the track as appropriate. I want my track plan to look like a signal control panel which only show red or green (green for any aspect other than red) so I’m happy with the two aspect version. I haven’t got any actual signals yet so haven’t discovered whether I can or can’t display three aspects on the actual model, but I know I have the capability to do the yellow/green externally if I need to.

If you want the control panel to show the actual signal aspect (as modern VDU control systems do) then you would need TC Gold and create your own images so that one was the YY aspect.

My experience of running trains on TC silver is that you won’t be wanting to distinguish between Y, YY or G for running trains manually, just whether to stop or not. Running automatically, TC uses its own internal ‘signal’. So it really comes down to what you want your display to show,

Hope that helps,

Paul.

[Perth General Station]

I do have TC silver displaying 3 aspects on both actual signals and on the accessory signal icons on switchboard. Can’t do YY unfortunately but three aspects good enough for me.

[Andymsa]

I do have TC silver displaying 3 aspects on both actual signals and on the accessory signal icons on switchboard. Can’t do YY unfortunately but three aspects good enough for me.

It is possible to do YY. Just take the 4 aspect signal and create a new signal in the editor and design it

[Andymsa]

Hi model-trains,

I use TC and have recently upgraded from Silver to Gold (15% was what triggered the jump!).

The quote above has been mentioned a couple of times and isn’t quite true. One thing that appears to mislead is the two different types of ‘signal’ in TC: there is a ‘internal signal’ associated with each exit from a block which can be set to display on the end of the block symbol. This does have to be in-line with the track, but all it is doing is giving a visual output of whether TC intends to run or stop the train at the end of the block. The display of these signals can be turned off (switchboard customisation) and that is how I have my display.

There are also signal accessories which can be placed anywhere in the switchboard, so mine are placed to the left (or right) of the track as appropriate. I want my track plan to look like a signal control panel which only show red or green (green for any aspect other than red) so I’m happy with the two aspect version. I haven’t got any actual signals yet so haven’t discovered whether I can or can’t display three aspects on the actual model, but I know I have the capability to do the yellow/green externally if I need to.

If you want the control panel to show the actual signal aspect (as modern VDU control systems do) then you would need TC Gold and create your own images so that one was the YY aspect.

My experience of running trains on TC silver is that you won’t be wanting to distinguish between Y, YY or G for running trains manually, just whether to stop or not. Running automatically, TC uses its own internal ‘signal’. So it really comes down to what you want your display to show,

Hope that helps,

Paul.

Yes your correct to a point, the internal block signals can be set to control an external signal as well. But you are limited in that it can't be edited and there are other limitations that I can't remember off hand. It is always advisable to create your own signals to control the physical signals. These can be placed anywhere.

[RFS]

Yes your correct to a point, the internal block signals can be set to control an external signal as well. But you are limited in that it can't be edited and there are other limitations that I can't remember off hand. It is always advisable to create your own signals to control the physical signals. These can be placed anywhere.

 

This is what I do with my 3-aspect signals even when they are controlling a diverging route. As I've mentioned before the feather is set automatically by also routing the Y/G feed to the feather through the spare switch on the Tortoise motor which controls the route, so I have no need of any DCC or TC logic for that. 

 

I define separate signals in the track plan and set the signal to yellow via a command in the route that the signal is controlling. I then have flagmen to determine whether the signal should stay yellow or change to green. For the next block I use the in-built block signal whereby I define a 2-aspect signal that is "without connection" and give it a name. The conditions on the flagmen are that the first signal is yellow and this internal block signal is green. Where there's a diverging route, then there's a flagman for each route with the additional condition based on which way the points are set. Finally I have another flagman that is triggered when the block is entered by the departing train to set the signal back to red. 

 

If anyone is interested in seeing my layout plan then please drop me a PM and I will send you a zip file of my .yrrg file so that you can see how it works using the simulator in demo mode. Note that demo mode does not expire and can be used whenever you like. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by RFS

[Edwin_m]

It is possible to do YY. Just take the 4 aspect signal and create a new signal in the editor and design it

I think the editor is only available in Gold.  There was a way to create custom images using a bit editor in version 6 (I think) but it disappeared in version 7 - one of the reasons I share the view expressed on here that Herr Freiwald isn't very customer-friendly. 

 

I thought the built-in symbols were too small and actually ended up creating a second signal for the additional yellow aspect, that could only display yellow or blank.  However I think I had to use the editor to create these larger aspects. 

[Andymsa]

This is what I do with my 3-aspect signals even when they are controlling a diverging route. As I've mentioned before the feather is set automatically by also routing the Y/G feed to the feather through the spare switch on the Tortoise motor which controls the route, so I have no need of any DCC or TC logic for that. 

 

I define separate signals in the track pan and set the signal to yellow via a command in the route that the signal is controlling. I then have flagmen to determine whether the signal should stay yellow or change to green. For the next block I use the in-built block signal whereby I define a 2-aspect signal that is "without connection" and give it a name. The conditions on the flagmen are that the first signal is yellow and this internal block signal is green. Where there's a diverging route, then there's a flagman for each route with the additional condition based on which way the points are set. Finally I have another flagman that is triggered when the block is entered by the departing train to set the signal back to red. 

 

If anyone is interested in seeing my layout plan then please drop me a PM and I will send you a zip file of my .yrrg file so that you can see how it works using the simulator in demo mode. Note that demo mode does not expire and can be used whenever you like.

 

That's the beauty of TC more than one way to do things. Flag men are powerful tools but can be quirky at times, with the diverging route the different aspects are defined by point positions. Your use of the feather linked to the tortoise is a good idea but personally I would use either another signal or flag to operate this or an extended accessory. This has the benefit that TC will know than actual aspect especially with automation. One thing you don't mention is what version of TC your using as some features are not available in silver

[WIMorrison]

The Silver/Gold feature availability was a major reason for me not going with TC as I found to do interesting stuff required Gold with resultant increased cost and I was then paying for masses of capability that I simply didn't need whereas ITrain provided all the capability I wanted in all editions

 

I think that this and the operating interface were probably the main reasons I ended up using iTrain rather than TC as they both control trains equally well, as do the free offerings but I wasn't willing to invest the huge amount of time needed for those options which I had looked at initially.