TrainController good or not so good

[RFS]

That's the beauty of TC more than one way to do things. Flag men are powerful tools but can be quirky at times, with the diverging route the different aspects are defined by point positions. Your use of the feather linked to the tortoise is a good idea but personally I would use either another signal or flag to operate this or an extended accessory. This has the benefit that TC will know than actual aspect especially with automation. One thing you don't mention is what version of TC your using as some features are not available in silver

 

I'm using the latest Gold version - 9.0A4. I believe that the features I'm using for the signals are all available in Silver too, as I only upgraded to Gold a couple of years ago. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by RFS

[Andymsa]

I've been a Traincontroller user for over 10 years now, and have worked my way up from 5.8 to the current release 9. I have no experience of iTrain so cannot offer a comparison, so perhaps I can list a few points for you to ponder.

 

Blocks and train lengths. TC Gold has comprehensive support for managing both long trains in short blocks, and short trains in long blocks.  It uses "dead reckoning" to calculate where a train is in a block, so knowing the train length (which you have defined) it knows when it's clear of the preceding block. This allows early release of that block (for short trains) and delayed release (for long trains).  It requires that you profile all your locos once so TC knows how fast the loco travels on any given speed step, but is extremely accurate. Of course this does rely on having decoders that have accurate BEMF.  I have now standardized on Lenz (mainly) and some Zimo decoders, all of which are excellent in this respect.  Also I use occupancy detectors and with TC and I only need one per block. This allows me to set multiple brake and stop markers (eg for short and long trains, scheduled vs. unscheduled stops etc.).

 

Turnouts. I can only speak for TC, but it always fires the points in a route regardless of their current state. There are reasons it needs to do this but it can be a bit of an issue with solenoid point motors. It can become quite noisy at times which detracts quite a lot. I have now set up my layout exclusively with Tortoise slow-motion motors.  As the change only requires reversing polarity, nothing happens when the motor is set the right way.  And even when they switch there's much less noise plus you can switch as many simultaneously as you like. And point motor reliability is crucial.

 

Signals. Mine are all 2 and 3 aspect colour light signals, some of which also have feathers. For the 3 aspect ones with feathers, there's the complication of setting yellow or green according to the next signal on the route that has been set. I do this with a feature in TC called flagmen. Feathers on the other hand are easy: feathers are powered along with green aspect (or yellow green output for 3-aspect) but routed via the second switch on the Tortoise powering the turnout for the diverging route. In this way the feather comes on automatically only if the signal is green and the diverging route is set. 

 

Simple two-aspect signals are easily accommodated using triggers that you define on the green aspect. In my case the triggers are that the block in front of the signal is occupied, and TC’s internal block signal is set to green for the correct direction of travel. This means the signal is automatic, and reverts to red as soon as the block occupation goes off.

 

My signals are operated by latching DPDT relays controlled by Lenz LS150s. I made my own circuit boards for these but today I would probably have used Gaugemaster GM500 ones.

 

General. No matter what automation software you use, it’s imperative that your hardware is reliable. Hence well-laid track, electrofrog points, very reliable point motors (hence my use of Tortoise), decoders with accurate BEMF, locos that keep their feet etc. Automation will quickly expose any shortcomings!

 

You can run TC in simulation mode and there’s no time limit in this.

 

Hope this helps.

Just had a read on how you do the signals again. Have you considered the other option in looking at the next signal aspect and the previous signal aspect there is an easier way to do this using triggers in the physical signal

[Perth General Station]

That's the beauty of TC more than one way to do things. Flag men are powerful tools but can be quirky at times, with the diverging route the different aspects are defined by point positions. Your use of the feather linked to the tortoise is a good idea but personally I would use either another signal or flag to operate this or an extended accessory. This has the benefit that TC will know than actual aspect especially with automation. One thing you don't mention is what version of TC your using as some features are not available in silver

I just use triggers even for diverging route. Trigger for a particular signal or route indicator being that particular “route” is “on” (and thus points set) and that the next block is not occupied. Also next signal being red or “not” red decides on yellow or green aspect. Avoids flag men and additional wiring to point motor.

However, I guess everyone has their own way of doing it!

[Andymsa]

I just use triggers even for diverging route. Trigger for a particular signal or route indicator being that particular “route” is “on” (and thus points set) and that the next block is not occupied. Also next signal being red or “not” red decides on yellow or green aspect. Avoids flag men and additional wiring to point motor.

However, I guess everyone has their own way of doing it!

Very similar to how I do things

[RFS]

One of the issues I found when using triggers - especially when a train is restarting after a station stop - is points changing, signal changing and train starting off simultaneously. Setting the signal on initially via an action on the route allows me to insert a delay both before and after: this means points change, delay, signal changes, delay, train moves off. 

[Andymsa]

One of the issues I found when using triggers - especially when a train is restarting after a station stop - is points changing, signal changing and train starting off simultaneously. Setting the signal on initially via an action on the route allows me to insert a delay both before and after: this means points change, delay, signal changes, delay, train moves off.

 

I don't activate the signal from the route as such, but the delays you mention I also do, as you point out this allows time for actions such as points to throw etc.

[toolongtoremember]

If it is support you are worried about, iTrain is the way to go. DCC Automation the UK supplier of iTrain and all the Digikeijs hardware is amazing when it comes to product support. People ask him questions and if he's made a video of it he will direct you to it otherwise I've seen him make videos based on individual questions and upload them for all to see. To be fair I could probably only manage the basics in iTrain, but with the help of James from DCC Automation I've been able to wire up and configure RailCom DCC detection to my layout. Just want to note though, I am no way being paid to say this, just brilliant customer service prompted me to do this!

[Andymsa]

If it is support you are worried about, iTrain is the way to go. DCC Automation the UK supplier of iTrain and all the Digikeijs hardware is amazing when it comes to product support. People ask him questions and if he's made a video of it he will direct you to it otherwise I've seen him make videos based on individual questions and upload them for all to see. To be fair I could probably only manage the basics in iTrain, but with the help of James from DCC Automation I've been able to wire up and configure RailCom DCC detection to my layout. Just want to note though, I am no way being paid to say this, just brilliant customer service prompted me to do this!

All valid points, but if you want to change from TC to I-Train or vice Vera's would involve a fare bit of work apart from learning the individual characteristics of each program. I don't think there's an issue with product support as such but what does concern me is the use of the new agent but I can't find any information on them, according to freiwald FAQ page on this subject the terms of purchase lay with the agent but who are they?

 

Will uk users upgrade in the future, I guess it depends on what a new version offers in terms of features.

[WIMorrison]

I found the TC support from users helpful, especially a few on here, but I found the support from Herr Freiwald (TC author) appalling - to the point of arrogant, whereas I find that Dhr Berkhout (iTrain author) is very helpful and keen to take up suggestions from the user community. I also consider that a known UK agent (James at www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk) who provides superb support across DCC in general but iTrain in particular is definite plus point.

[Andymsa]

I found the TC support from users helpful, especially a few on here, but I found the support from Herr Freiwald (TC author) appalling - to the point of arrogant, whereas I find that Dhr Berkhout (iTrain author) is very helpful and keen to take up suggestions from the user community. I also consider that a known UK agent (James at www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk) who provides superb support across DCC in general but iTrain in particular is definite plus point.

It does give cause to think how many sales has herr freiwald has lost. At one time he was the only kid on the block but now there is choice so it does makes you wonder at his attitude to his users.

[WIMorrison]

Andy - agree 100% on the alternative offerings changing the market dynamics. When I looked originally about 8 years ago TC was the only viable option but the costs were way out of my budget- plus it seemed limited for the money (at that time). When I came back to look at automation I found iTrain and compared it with TC9 I realised that there was viable option for control of my layout. Had I chosen TC all those years ago then I would still be with TC since as you say changing would be absolute nightmare but when starting afresh that isn't a concern. 

 

It certainly makes life more interesting when there is viable competition.

[Andymsa]

 

It certainly makes life more interesting when there is viable competition.

With that competition it does make me wonder at the long term outlook for TC.

[model-trains]

*** A BIG THANK YOU EVERYONE ***

 

I am really pleased with the response to this thread and thank everyone for the kind and informative comments.

 

I have tried both software to a reasonable level for me, I have considered everything said, including comments about each company and technical support. I have also considered European and UK connections along with the final consideration, which package would I require and at what price.

 

My conclusion is that although both software packages are good, they both do thinks differently, TC appeared easier with some items, iTrain seemed easier with others. TC certainly has the advantage when it comes to help from YouTube videos, there are very few for iTrain. 

 

I listened to the comments regarding the owner of TrainController, they were certainly not good, I have no doubt that what has been said is true but I would not let this be the reason for my decision regarding which software system is best for me. That said, the attitude of herr freiwald regarding using an agent to sell to the 'UK', our country singled out, does seem to me, a bit like a kid throwing a teddy out of a pram. I am left wondering where future support may stand with TC software.

 

Back to the software comparisons, after starting this thread, I also joined the iTrain forum, I didn't see the need to join the TC one as there are so many YouTube Videos. I have to say that the help I got on the iTrain forum was outstanding, not only support and guidance, but clear comments from XanderB about iTrain software, and also that UK signals WILL be in the next upgrade, they will be on the left hand side of track as most are, (other than overhead ones) plus fully automated control is also coming. There was no maybe, might be, coming soon statements, the replies were positive, they are planned.

 

I consider the help and support, plus these clear comments from the iTrain company, linked to the fact iTrain is sold in the UK by DCC Train Automation, all help make the decision an easy one. Add to this the comments on here and elsewhere regarding how helpful James is at DCC Train Automation is, I will be going for iTrain. 

 

If at this stage I was still struggling to make my mind up there are two more considerations I left until last, the first is that with TrainController  I would have to purchase the top of the range Gold package, in fact most people would have to, I think again this is geared by the German company for 'money'. With iTrain I would not need to purchase the top package, they do Lite, Standard, Plus and Professional, a level to suit everyone I think. I would only need to purchase the Plus package £220 at this time considered to £500 plus around 15% increase for an agent to sell TC. For me it is now definitely a no brainer.

 

Many thanks to everyone who have added comments, please feel free to continue, I am sure they will help others who may end up in the same situation, which is best Train Controller or iTrain, you have all helped to make my decision, which at the start was a hard one, and is now a very easy one. 

[Andymsa]

*** A BIG THANK YOU EVERYONE ***

 

I am really pleased with the response to this thread and thank everyone for the kind and informative comments.

 

I have tried both software to a reasonable level for me, I have considered everything said, including comments about each company and technical support. I have also considered European and UK connections along with the final consideration, which package would I require and at what price.

 

My conclusion is that although both software packages are good, they both do thinks differently, TC appeared easier with some items, iTrain seemed easier with others. TC certainly has the advantage when it comes to help from YouTube videos, there are very few for iTrain. 

 

I listened to the comments regarding the owner of TrainController, they were certainly not good, I have no doubt that what has been said is true but I would not let this be the reason for my decision regarding which software system is best for me. That said, the attitude of herr freiwald regarding using an agent to sell to the 'UK', our country singled out, does seem to me, a bit like a kid throwing a teddy out of a pram. I am left wondering where future support may stand with TC software.

 

Back to the software comparisons, after starting this thread, I also joined the iTrain forum, I didn't see the need to join the TC one as there are so many YouTube Videos. I have to say that the help I got on the iTrain forum was outstanding, not only support and guidance, but clear comments from XanderB about iTrain software, and also that UK signals WILL be in the next upgrade, they will be on the left hand side of track as most are, (other than overhead ones) plus fully automated control is also coming. There was no maybe, might be, coming soon statements, the replies were positive, they are planned.

 

I consider the help and support, plus these clear comments from the iTrain company, linked to the fact iTrain is sold in the UK by DCC Train Automation, all help make the decision an easy one. Add to this the comments on here and elsewhere regarding how helpful James is at DCC Train Automation is, I will be going for iTrain. 

 

If at this stage I was still struggling to make my mind up there are two more considerations I left until last, the first is that with TrainController  I would have to purchase the top of the range Gold package, in fact most people would have to, I think again this is geared by the German company for 'money'. With iTrain I would not need to purchase the top package, they do Lite, Standard, Plus and Professional, a level to suit everyone I think. I would only need to purchase the Plus package £220 at this time considered to £500 plus around 15% increase for an agent to sell TC. For me it is now definitely a no brainer.

 

Many thanks to everyone who have added comments, please feel free to continue, I am sure they will help others who may end up in the same situation, which is best Train Controller or iTrain, you have all helped to make my decision, which at the start was a hard one, and is now a very easy one.

 

Hi, I thought I-Train was capible of full automatic mode already, but good to here it's going to be implemented if it doesn't already. I'm pleased you have come a decision on what program to install, and how you came to that decision comes as no surprise. It be interesting to know what features are easier in I-Train. The freiwald forum of late I have noticed has not that much activity in the English section as opposed to a few years ago but there are a few individuals who know there stuff still there. I'll have a look at the I-Train forum I think not sure where this is so will have a google for it

[WIMorrison]

Andy,

 

FYI - iTrain does have full automation for driving so I am not quite sure what aspect Paul thinks isn't there yet - although he may be talking about the fully automatic simulation which I have to admit is rather cool in TC9. I understand that iTrain 5 will have that capability, meantime it is semi-automated.

 

Edit

 

iTrain Forum is here - https://berros.eu/itrain/forum/index.php - tip, open it in Google Chrome and get the other languages automatically translated, a wealth of information especially in the German and Dutch Forums (might say something about where automation is heavily used )

 

Iain

Edited January 5, 2019 by WIMorrison

[Andymsa]

Andy,

 

FYI - iTrain does have full automation for driving so I am not quite sure what aspect Paul thinks isn't there yet - although he may be talking about the fully automatic simulation which I have to admit is rather cool in TC9. I understand that iTrain 5 will have that capability, meantime it is semi-automated.

 

Edit

 

iTrain Forum is here - https://berros.eu/itrain/forum/index.php - tip, open it in Google Chrome and get the other languages automatically translated, a wealth of information especially in the German and Dutch Forums (might say something about where automation is heavily used )

 

Iain

Thanks I have registered waiting for acceptance

[55020]

Thanks I have registered waiting for acceptance

 

Me too, about a week ago.  No acceptance yet. 

 

Can you post a message of yours comes through.  Thanks 

[Andymsa]

Me too, about a week ago.  No acceptance yet. 

Can you post a message of yours comes through.  Thanks 

Will do

[model-trains]

Andy,

 

FYI - iTrain does have full automation for driving so I am not quite sure what aspect Paul thinks isn't there yet - although he may be talking about the fully automatic simulation which I have to admit is rather cool in TC9. I understand that iTrain 5 will have that capability, meantime it is semi-automated.

 

Edit

 

iTrain Forum is here - https://berros.eu/itrain/forum/index.php - tip, open it in Google Chrome and get the other languages automatically translated, a wealth of information especially in the German and Dutch Forums (might say something about where automation is heavily used )

 

Iain

 

Your assumption is correct Iain.

 

I have only had the iTrain trial version since the 23 December, very impressed I must say. When I heard 'full' automation was included I though full meant on track and in software. I am also very impressed by iTrain on the forum, help for always there, but most impressive I think was the positive replies when I asked about UK signals, they are coming in 2019. Full automation is also coming, meaning in the software and on track. iTrain come over as, a very positive and helpful company, that was why, having my full layout in the software in 2 weeks and having received the support and comments I have, I decided a few days ago, iTrain is for me.

 

As a previous Hornby eLink user, waiting 3 years for Loco Detection, I got fed up of waiting. I appreciate they have decided to make a statement, possibly today, that LD is coming in 2019, I do have my concerns over the system they choose to adopt, very thin sensors that read from tags, dust and the smallest ballast or scenery could, I think, effect the effectiveness of their system, whereas iTrain with Digikeijs feedback works from under the layout, a clean and simple method I think, with less chance of errors.

 

Sorry for any confusion regarding 'fully automatic simulation'. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by model-trains

[Andymsa]

Well as a long term traincontroller user I have looked at I-train with a bit of trepidation. On looking through the manual I have been impressed with what I seen so far. I'm still waiting to hear if I can join the forum so I can see what issues I may come across. The next step then will be to design a small part of my layout and do some testing with a trial license. What I got to put aside is how things are done in Traincontroller, don't get me wrong TC is a good program, but with freiwald view to the uk market and I'm now wishing to look at network control I was going to get the TC add on but I Train has it built in which is a positive. With over 300 peices of stock to speed profile this will be a lot of work before I can really fully get to grips with I Train

[WIMorrison]

Andy,

 

Welcome to the party

Edited January 8, 2019 by WIMorrison

[WIMorrison]

Lost the rest of my post somehow

 

You are correct in saying that iTrain and TC are different, but they do achieve the same result and as long as you accept that the difference and don’t try to make iTrain into a surrogate TC then you have a massive advantage in that you understand many of the concepts already

 

There are ways to reduce the time to profile locos and the programme will do most of it, you can simply tell it to start and get on with something else but it will still take time , that however is a little way down the line.

 

When you have questions post them here, on the iTrain forum it PM me and I will do the best I can to help you.

 

Iain

[Andymsa]

Lost the rest of my post somehow

You are correct in saying that iTrain and TC are different, but they do achieve the same result and as long as you accept that the difference and don’t try to make iTrain into a surrogate TC then you have a massive advantage in that you understand many of the concepts already

There are ways to reduce the time to profile locos and the programme will do most of it, you can simply tell it to start and get on with something else but it will still take time , that however is a little way down the line.

When you have questions post them here, on the iTrain forum it PM me and I will do the best I can to help you.

Iain

Thanks Iain,

 

It will be a little while before I'll get to doing tests as I'm laying ballast, painting track and installing sommerfeldt overhead catenary on one of the station approaches at present, So can't power up the layout until ballasting is finished. But first I-train task will be to do a track plan, but I do have a question. In TC you can have a link between switchboards does ITrain does the same as I not found anything about it in the manual.

 

Andy

[WIMorrison]

Andy,

 

Yes it can, page 137 of the manual should show you how it can be done - simply put you put a link symbol at the end of a block then go to the other diagram and put another link symbol to link to the 2 elements together.

[Andymsa]

Andy,

 

Yes it can, page 137 of the manual should show you how it can be done - simply put you put a link symbol at the end of a block then go to the other diagram and put another link symbol to link to the 2 elements together.

Thanks