Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches

[Robin Brasher]

I am sorry that I do not know the answer about Bulleid 59' coaches on the Padstow line.  Branch Line to Padstow by Vic Mitchell and Keith Smith and published by the Middleton Press may have some pictures of these coaches running on the line and the bibliography may provide information about further research.

 

Meanwhile I enclose a picture of a C class running with my Southern set at the Wimborne Railway Society meeting.  To me a locomotive in a neutral colour looks better than a locomotive in a different shade of green than the coaches.

[Dunsignalling]

I'd suggest these sets probably appeared on the North Cornwall line through most of their careers, but most likely ending with the transfer of the route to the WR at the end of 1962.

 

However, I'd think their visits would be occasional rather than daily and that the class of train they turned up on would have changed over the years. Early on (possibly from new) as the Padstow portion of through services like the ACE, with gradual demotion to services such as stoppers to Okehampton or Exeter as newer stock was provided for the more prestige workings. 

 

John

Edited August 9, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

13 hours ago, sc2016 said:

Can someone help with the two questions i put up several weeks ago? 

Thanks if somebody could help.

I doubt these sets were used down there hardly at all on a regular CWN basis as Maunsells tended to rule local services IIRC and I have seen few photo's to support evidence that they were widely utilised. AFAIK they were far more often seen in and around the south east and then sometimes on the WOEML during the Summer Timetable period with workings into the withered arm on ex London workings. I have a pic of a set in the mid 50s leaving Plymouth North Road (and I do know that isn't Cornwall) for, presumably, Friary and that would have been on a working that probably originated a Waterloo. However, having said this I am sure there are others that have a far more intimate knowledge than I. Sadly some of those very people rarely put out info, outside their own thread, on here for some unknown reason? John (above) is an exception to this and I have had loads of helpful stuff from him.

What I could do for you, if you get little or no further information, is to have a poke through my available books and limited CWNs as I could find that useful as well, however my interest is in late 50s to early 60s on the WOEML west of Salisbury and so that might not sit your needs.

Phil

Edited August 9, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Dunsignalling]

44 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I doubt these sets were used down there hardly at all on a regular CWN basis as Maunsells tended to rule local services IIRC and I have seen few photo's to support evidence that they were widely utilised. AFAIK they were far more often seen in and around the south east and then sometimes on the WOEML during the Summer Timetable period with workings into the withered arm on ex London workings. I have a pic of a set in the mid 50s leaving Plymouth North Road (and I do know that isn't Cornwall) for, presumably, Friary and that would have been on a working that probably originated a Waterloo. However, having said this I am sure there are others that have a far more intimate knowledge than I. Sadly some of those very people rarely put out info, outside their own thread, on here for some unknown reason? John (above) is an exception to this and I have had loads of helpful stuff from him.

What I could do for you, if you get little or no further information, is to have a poke through my available books and limited CWNs as I could find that useful as well, however my interest is in late 50s to early 60s on the WOEML west of Salisbury and so that might not sit your needs.

Phil

Several of the 3-coach Maunsell "Torrington Sets" migrated to the Somerset and Dorset in the mid-1950s to replace life-expired ex-LSWR gangwayed stock. The short Bulleids (displaced from previous duties by newer Bulleids and BR Mk1s) would be the logical top-up to the pool of such sets remaining on West Country services, if only on a seasonal basis.

 

Whilst the commonest work for 59' Bulleids seems to have been West-of-England main line stopping and semi-fast services (appearances on the Bournemouth and Weymouth route generally seem to be later), peak season demand would likely have required their use in relief ACEs etc. Indeed, after the early transfers to the S&D in 1959, they were returned to the WoE the following summer to release 63' Bulleids for such work.

 

The Padstow portion of the ACE often loaded to five coaches in summer, but seldom more than three out of season which is the time these would have been most likely to turn up on such duties. Also, of course, the time of year when fewer photographers would have been around to record them.  

 

John

Edited August 9, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Wickham Green]

28 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

.......... they were far more often seen in and around the south east ...........

South east as opposed to south west, perhaps - but I've never seen any evidence of them wandering onto the South Eastern Section / Division unfortunately ( a 'C' class is an unlikely companion I'm afraid ) ...... the, slightly later, Birmingham sets were the first Bulleid ( loco hauled ) coaches round here.

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

South east as opposed to south west, perhaps - but I've never seen any evidence of them wandering onto the South Eastern Section / Division unfortunately ( a 'C' class is an unlikely companion I'm afraid ) ...... the, slightly later, Birmingham sets were the first Bulleid ( loco hauled ) coaches round here.

Agreed. The 59-footers don't seem to have strayed off South Western metals until after the SR/WR boundary changes at the end of 1962, when some went to the Central Section, mainly (if not exclusively) for use on Oxted line services.

 

John

Edited August 9, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[truffy]

15 hours ago, sc2016 said:

Can someone help with the two questions i put up several weeks ago? 

Thanks if somebody could help.

I'm nor sure if this might help you?

http://www.semgonline.com/coach/sets.html

SR ran coaches in sets. That page leads to an XL download that has many of the sets, coach numbers, and their routes.

[Robin Brasher]

Chris Leigh's review of the Bulleid 59' coaches has now appeared in the summer 2019 issue of Model Rail. I have been reading his reviews for the last 50 years and this is the best review to date. He does comment about the colour and says that the shade of green looks right for the BR shade but is not vibrant enough for the Southern era. The colours should be the same because they represent Southern malachite green which was retained after nationalisation until British Railways repainted them crimson and cream.  The BR coaches are described as era 4 in the Hornby catalogue which is in early British Railways livery between 1946 and 1956. The coaches are in a lighter shade of green than the colour sample in Southern Style After Nationalisation by John Harvey but are still, in my opinion a reasonable representation.

 

Meanwhile I enclose a picture of Normandy hauling Set 965 at the last Wimborne Railway Society meeting. The other members thought that the livery of the coaches was correct.

[Mallard60022]

8 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

I doubt these sets were used down there hardly at all on a regular CWN basis as Maunsells tended to rule local services IIRC and I have seen few photo's to support evidence that they were widely utilised. AFAIK they were far more often seen in and around the south east and then sometimes on the WOEML during the Summer Timetable period with workings into the withered arm on ex London workings. I have a pic of a set in the mid 50s leaving Plymouth North Road (and I do know that isn't Cornwall) for, presumably, Friary and that would have been on a working that probably originated a Waterloo. However, having said this I am sure there are others that have a far more intimate knowledge than I. Sadly some of those very people rarely put out info, outside their own thread, on here for some unknown reason? John (above) is an exception to this and I have had loads of helpful stuff from him.

What I could do for you, if you get little or no further information, is to have a poke through my available books and limited CWNs as I could find that useful as well, however my interest is in late 50s to early 60s on the WOEML west of Salisbury and so that might not sit your needs.

Phil

OK, as the weather here has been awful almost all day I have spent some time checking on my edition of Mr Gould's Bulleid's S.R Steam passenger Stock. It seems there would have been sets in Ilfracombe and Plymouth workings west of Exeter from late 1946 (October) and that could have involved 9 sets Down. It looks like there were 7 sets used in Up workings from the same places. From 1949 they were used on stopping services. From November 1959, as you probably know, Sets 963 to 973 went to the S & D but were used from June 1960 on the main line intensive summer services. After that they were transferred away in 1961 back to the S & D and also Central Division. It was at this time that the 4 'long sets' were retained on the WOEML.

Hope that helps and much of it is what was said above.

ATB

Phil 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

Chris Leigh's review of the Bulleid 59' coaches has now appeared in the summer 2019 issue of Model Rail. I have been reading his reviews for the last 50 years and this is the best review to date. He does comment about the colour and says that the shade of green looks right for the BR shade but is not vibrant enough for the Southern era. The colours should be the same because they represent Southern malachite green which was retained after nationalisation until British Railways repainted them crimson and cream.  The BR coaches are described as era 4 in the Hornby catalogue which is in early British Railways livery between 1946 and 1956. The coaches are in a lighter shade of green than the colour sample in Southern Style After Nationalisation by John Harvey but are still, in my opinion a reasonable representation.

 

Meanwhile I enclose a picture of Normandy hauling Set 965 at the last Wimborne Railway Society meeting. The other members thought that the livery of the coaches was correct.

Don't forget that, as has been posted by Mr Muspratt of this parish, only five of the 59' sets ever received crimson and cream, the rest going straight from rebranded SR malachite green to the later BR shade after it was authorised from 1956.

 

That indicates a planned repaint cycle of around ten years, so the SR paint on the five c/c sets had presumably deteriorated sufficiently to require more than a touch up and revarnishing before their appointed dates. 

 

John

[durham light infantry]

Don't know if this has been mentioned?

 

Page165 of British Railways in Unseen Colour shows Set 970 in Green being shunted at Axminster.

 

Mike

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 30/07/2019 at 21:09, TheSignalEngineer said:

I think the difference in the bogie frame is to help factory identification, as the brake end has step boards and the inner end doesn't.

 

I was having another look at them after RFS posted his pictures and wondered if the close coupling mech was the problem as they didn't move 100% freely on any of the bogies. will dismantle one tomorrow and see if cleaning up the contact faces improves the situation.

Since my previous post my composite has arrived and as expected the cut-out in the end is different again, so this must be for identification purposes. It too gave problems propelling across one set of points.

I acquired a digital measuring thingy last week. The wheels were tight to my back-to-back gauge so I measured all of them and the figures came out between 14.10mm and 14.32mm  across the 12 wheelsets. I set them all out to the gauge and all but one bogie propelled through all of my points without problems. I cleaned up the edges of the close coupler and slot on that one and it now seems OK. Looks like it could be job sorted, thanks for previous comments.

Edited August 10, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[RFS]

On 10/08/2019 at 22:50, TheSignalEngineer said:

Since my previous post my composite has arrived and as expected the cut-out in the end is different again, so this must be for identification purposes. It too gave problems propelling across one set of points.

I acquired a digital measuring thingy last week. The wheels were tight to my back-to-back gauge so I measured all of them and the figures came out between 14.10mm and 14.32mm  across the 12 wheelsets. I set them all out to the gauge and all but one bogie propelled through all of my points without problems. I cleaned up the edges of the close coupler and slot on that one and it now seems OK. Looks like it could be job sorted, thanks for previous comments.

 

Well I've just had a look at my coaches and with my digital micrometer they all came out almost exactly spot-on at 14.50 mm. I've not seen any running problems at all so far. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, RFS said:

 

Well I've just had a look at my coaches and with my digital micrometer they all came out almost exactly spot-on at 14.50 mm. I've not seen any running problems at all so far. 

Having done some more testing and measuring I found more problems with propelling through points. The close coupling units are much too sloppy when tension locks are used. With the alternative couplings they are fine. 

Regarding the wheelsets I tried several combinations at one location in the fiddle yard. Everything works O.K. in the normal running direction trailing through them. Hornby Bulleids gave problems propelling. I picked up a coach made up from several bits of Airfix / Mainline / Dapol origin and wheels from a pack of Hornby ones I bought about 5 years ago. The coach has Hornby R8099 couplings in Dapol bogies. Worked perfectly as built, so I swapped one wheelset with one from a Bulleid brake. Repeating the test runs the Dapol coach with the new wheels derailed three times in five shunts, the Bulleid with the old wheels ran perfectly every time. 

I am beginning to suspect that the newer Hornby wheels have a slightly different profile to the older ones.

[dibber25]

Looks like that might be a three-set behind 92245 on the cover of the September 2019 Steam World. Set number partly obscured but could be 963 or 968 possibly. Four-wheel CCT on the back as what used to be known as a 'swinger'. Great to see a set behind a '9F' no less, but a smidgen over-powered! (CJL)

Edited August 15, 2019 by dibber25

[bazza.]

On 07/08/2019 @ 23:35 W124bob said:

 

There's an elephant in this particular forum room, no one can accuratetly state what is the correct shade of malachite green because no one has a time machine.

 

Hello W124bob,

 

I can !

 

I was given a small paint sample by a member of the Southern Railway Group, taken from a tin of genuine BR Malachite (Coach Green No.11) from the Eastleigh Loco Works Paint Shop in 1962. This sample is in its natural finish without varnishing.

 

I was also given 2 Dulux shade cards. One was a shade card of "Woodland Fern 1" 90GY 08/187, which is the closest colour to the unvarnished BR Malachite (Coach Green No.11) and coaches when varnished would appear slightly darker and slightly yellower.

 

The second Dulux shade card was one of "Dublin Bay 1" 07GG 08/244 which was said to be typical to the varnished finish of SR Malachite Green, which is very similar in colour to the BR green colour of Hornby's BSK Maunsell coach R4305A  (S 2796 S) which I have used as a comparison, which in turn is part of my Maunsell 4 car set number 236 in BR green livery. 

 

Barry  

Edited August 19, 2019 by bazza.

[Wickham Green]

9 hours ago, bazza. said:

On 07/08/2019 @ 23:35 W124bob said:

 

There's an elephant in this particular forum room, no one can accuratetly state what is the correct shade of malachite green because no one has a time machine.

 

Hello W124bob,

 

I can !

 

I was given a small paint sample by a member of the Southern Railway Group, taken from a tin of genuine BR Malachite (Coach Green No.11) from the Eastleigh Loco Works Paint Shop in 1962. This sample is in its natural finish without varnishing.

 

I was also given 2 Dulux shade cards. One was a shade card of "Woodland Fern 1" 90GY 08/187, which is the closest colour to the unvarnished BR Malachite (Coach Green No.11) and coaches when varnished would appear slightly darker and slightly yellower.

 

The second Dulux shade card was one of "Dublin Bay 1" 07GG 08/244 which was said to be typical to the varnished finish of SR Malachite Green, which is very similar in colour to the BR green colour of Hornby's BSK Maunsell coach R4305A  (S 2796 S) which I have used as a comparison, which in turn is part of my Maunsell 4 car set number 236 in BR green livery. 

 

Barry  

You may have been pointed in the direction of Dublin Bay by the same gentleman I was .......... I felt No.1 was too dark for the Southern colour when compared to the nearest "genuine" sample I have ( Williamsons - as used on Lord Nelson ) but mixing it with Dublin Bay No.2 produced something pretty close : I THINK it was two parts No.1 to one part No.2 ( may have been 3 to 1 ) ......... no idea whether Dublin Bay's in the current range.

[Mallard60022]

17 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

You may have been pointed in the direction of Dublin Bay by the same gentleman I was .......... I felt No.1 was too dark for the Southern colour when compared to the nearest "genuine" sample I have ( Williamsons - as used on Lord Nelson ) but mixing it with Dublin Bay No.2 produced something pretty close : I THINK it was two parts No.1 to one part No.2 ( may have been 3 to 1 ) ......... no idea whether Dublin Bay's in the current range.

That is great and  a helpful tip. May I just make one comment about bazza's post included in your post? The paint was from 1962; might it have changed chemically over the years in the tin?

Phil

[trevor7598]

A couple of light and shadow shots of Hornby's Bulleid ' shorties ', which show up the good and not so good.

[dibber25]

On 09/08/2019 at 18:00, Dunsignalling said:

Don't forget that, as has been posted by Mr Muspratt of this parish, only five of the 59' sets ever received crimson and cream, the rest going straight from rebranded SR malachite green to the later BR shade after it was authorised from 1956.

 

That indicates a planned repaint cycle of around ten years, so the SR paint on the five c/c sets had presumably deteriorated sufficiently to require more than a touch up and revarnishing before their appointed dates. 

 

John

I would just point out that I was refering to the shade of green I remember as Southern Region green which would have been post-1960. I don't remember the Southern Railway shade which might still have been around when I was a VERY small child. If the coaches are intended to represent Southern Railway malachite then I would have thought they would have retained their Southern Railway lettering and numbers. The BR lettering and numbering suggests to me that they are depicted as post-repainting by BR. However, the caveat here, as I've said so many times that I hesitate to mention it here again, is that arguing over colours and shades is futile, as what looks right to me may not look right to someone else, and vice versa. (CJL)

[Dunsignalling]

55 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

I would just point out that I was refering to the shade of green I remember as Southern Region green which would have been post-1960. I don't remember the Southern Railway shade which might still have been around when I was a VERY small child. If the coaches are intended to represent Southern Railway malachite then I would have thought they would have retained their Southern Railway lettering and numbers. The BR lettering and numbering suggests to me that they are depicted as post-repainting by BR. However, the caveat here, as I've said so many times that I hesitate to mention it here again, is that arguing over colours and shades is futile, as what looks right to me may not look right to someone else, and vice versa. (CJL)

Photographs seem to indicate that the "Southern" branding disappeared from most coaches relatively quickly, presumably sanded off along with the top coat of varnish and the base colour retouched; probably during the usual winter maintenance rotation of stock. The running numbers and class markings would presumably be dealt with at the same time. Given that this stock would have been due a scheduled repaint a year or so either side of the time BR green was first authorised, few are likely to have kept re-varnished SR paint beyond 1957. 

 

I wholeheartedly agree about the futility of debating colour rendition, without access to a reliable unweathered sample of the original finish, it is impossible to be categorical. That said, there seems to be the hint of a consensus around Hornby's green probably being a bit lighter than the BR shade, a bit darker than SR Malachite, but pretty close to the latter after it had received a few extra applications of varnish.  

 

John

 

  

Edited August 19, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[bazza.]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Photographs seem to indicate that the "Southern" branding disappeared from most coaches relatively quickly, presumably sanded off along with the top coat of varnish and the base colour retouched; probably during the usual winter maintenance rotation of stock. The running numbers and class markings would presumably be dealt with at the same time. Given that this stock would have been due a scheduled repaint a year or so either side of the time BR green was first authorised, few are likely to have kept re-varnished SR paint beyond 1957. 

 

I wholeheartedly agree about the futility of debating colour rendition, without access to a reliable unweathered sample of the original finish, it is impossible to be categorical. That said, there seems to be the hint of a consensus around Hornby's green probably being a bit lighter than the BR shade, a bit darker than SR Malachite, but pretty close to the latter after it had received a few extra applications of varnish.  

 

John

 

  

Hello John,

 

My paint sample is a 100% un-weathered paint sample taken from a tin of original BR Coach green No 11 paint, ie BR Malachite green, at Eastleigh Loco Works Paint Shop. My paint sample has been stored in a brown envelope in draw and never exposed to day light, and never been touched by hand. It is my BR malachite green colour paint reference point. 

 

I don't know who Williamson's are, but if they are paint manufactures, perhaps they would have supplied the BR Coach Green paint No 11 BR Malachite Green to Eastleigh Paint Shop in 1962.

 

According to John Harvey of the Southern Railways Group Notebook, BR Coach green No 11 was slightly darker and more yellow the the SR malachite green. and has a Munsell paint reference (including varnish coats) about 2G 2.1/4, this has a DULUX reference about 70GY 6.5/15C .

 

The nearest paint shade to my paint sample is 90GY 8/187 DULUX Woodland Fern 1 which is very close to the unvarnished BR Coach green No 11 malachite, which in turn is very close to the colour of Hornby's Maunsell BR green coaches.

 

Incidentally my Hornby short Bulleid coaches in BR green livery have finally made it all the way to NZ, and they are a lighter shade of green to the Hornby Maunsell BR green, so perhaps I can pretend that they were always facing south on the journey to and from Waterloo to Exeter and so faded on both sides instead of one side that was normal on West of England coaching stock. Thankfully they are not as light in colour as the old Bachmann Bulleid 64' coaches, which I always thought were too light a shade of green.

 

Barry 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by bazza.

[Wickham Green]

20 hours ago, trevor7598 said:

 

Close your left eye and concentrate on the compartments ............. what comes to mind ? - 4SUB ! ........... c'mon Hornby, you're almost there !

[dibber25]

7 hours ago, bazza. said:

Hello John,

 

My paint sample is a 100% un-weathered paint sample taken from a tin of original BR Coach green No 11 paint, ie BR Malachite green, at Eastleigh Loco Works Paint Shop. My paint sample has been stored in a brown envelope in draw and never exposed to day light, and never been touched by hand. It is my BR malachite green colour paint reference point. 

 

I don't know who Williamson's are, but if they are paint manufactures, perhaps they would have supplied the BR Coach Green paint No 11 BR Malachite Green to Eastleigh Paint Shop in 1962.

 

According to John Harvey of the Southern Railways Group Notebook, BR Coach green No 11 was slightly darker and more yellow the the SR malachite green. and has a Munsell paint reference (including varnish coats) about 2G 2.1/4, this has a DULUX reference about 70GY 6.5/15C .

 

The nearest paint shade to my paint sample is 90GY 8/187 DULUX Woodland Fern 1 which is very close to the unvarnished BR Coach green No 11 malachite, which in turn is very close to the colour of Hornby's Maunsell BR green coaches.

 

Incidentally my Hornby short Bulleid coaches in BR green livery have finally made it all the way to NZ, and they are a lighter shade of green to the Hornby Maunsell BR green, so perhaps I can pretend that they were always facing south on the journey to and from Waterloo to Exeter and so faded on both sides instead of one side that was normal on West of England coaching stock. Thankfully they are not as light in colour as the old Bachmann Bulleid 64' coaches, which I always thought were too light a shade of green.

 

Barry 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But the problem then comes when you adjust it by eye to suit something 1:76 the size of the real thing. If you don't adjust it, it will look too dark. If you do adjust it, your adjustment is likely to differ from someone else's. Yes, T. Williamson were paint suppliers to BR. (CJL)

[trevor7598]

49 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Close your left eye and concentrate on the compartments ............. what comes to mind ? - 4SUB ! ........... c'mon Hornby, you're almost there !

Yes I totally agree, a 4 SUB would ideal. If a 47XX type was chosen Hornby would only need two body mouldings.

Underframe wise many parts are common to BIL/HAL.

They would really have to work harder on the glazing though, the more I look at my ' shortie ' set the worse it gets,

I noticed yesterday that the toilet windows are not flush glazed at all. What bugs me is that Hornby have got flush

glazing spot on in the past, different factory maybe.

 

Consider a decent 4SUB already sold.