Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches

[autocoach]

2 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

I will be interested to read what the reviews in the model railway magazines say about the Hornby livery for the 59' coaches.

In the August issue of the magazine owned by the same company as RMWEB the review of the Bulleids was written by a Tony Wright who does not seem to be intimably knowledgeable on Bulleid rolling stock (well neither did a certain noted Hornby marketing consultant.)  The accompanying photographs were taken under what appears to be bright intense light and the green appears acceptably far brighter than it would the usual darker caverns that we modelers live in.  Looking at the 3-set of SR Bulleids I now own in daylight I would agree that the shade is more acceptable.  I will live with it even though the coaches will run on my Padstow in 1947 (if rebuilt) as less than a year old and not revarnished (unrevarnished as in unrebuilt for the WC that pulls them.) 

 

On the other hand if someone comes up with a way to lighten the green a shade without completely dismanteling the coaches and respraying I will be most interested. I can accept that the many green Manunsells I own have been revarnished and therefore have a darker shade than never varnished and unrebuilt pacifics that pull them. Using my Hornby 1941 Merchant Navy (of course I had to buy a Channel Packet) on the point however screams quite loudly the difference in the shades of green. 

 

I am not expecting a review in MRJ so wonder what the rest of the model press make of these SR coaches.  I don't subscribe to a lot of UK model railway publications these days and get my BRM in the electronic version. So the opinions of other publications suitably excerpted in these pages will be most welcome.

Edited August 5, 2019 by autocoach

[talisman56]

The review in the PECO publication for August 2019 made no comment on the veracity (or otherwise) of the malachite livery.

[Oldddudders]

20 hours ago, autocoach said:

In the August issue of the magazine owned by the same company as RMWEB the review of the Bulleids was written by a Tony Wright who does not seem to be intimably knowledgeable on Bulleid rolling stock.

 

So the opinions of other publications suitably excerpted in these pages will be most welcome.

I'm not sure why you are convinced "a Tony Wright" doesn't know much about Bulleid coaches - after all, he clearly has drawings in his collection against which he has checked the Hornby offerings, and found them to be "absolutely spot-on". He has, furthermore, consulted the standard printed works on Bulleid coaches and his review provides plenty of detailed historical data about them. What more were you expecting? As Talisman has noted, Tim Rayner in RM has indicated equal satisfaction with the models.

 

Where colour is concerned, Malachite seems rather hard to define. I noted a few pages back, with supporting photo, that Larry Goddard's take on the colour is a little lighter, but no printed review is likely to stick its neck out in defining the precise shade, because it is a much debated subject.

 

We have got what we've got, and I am grateful. 

[Bulleidboy100]

"a Tony Wright" - like it!

[Oldddudders]

54 minutes ago, Bulleidboy100 said:

"a Tony Wright" - like it!

Quite. He's only got 37k contributions on his thread............... 

[truffy]

9 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Quite. He's only got 37k contributions on his thread............... 

It’s hardly essential reading though 

[Mallard60022]

32 minutes ago, truffy said:

It’s hardly essential reading though 

Would you care to elaborate?

P

[truffy]

11 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Would you care to elaborate?

P

Sure. It’s looooooooong and rambling. While I’m sure there are useful nuggets in there, there’s a hell of a lot of chaff. Just my opinion, obviously. 

[Oldddudders]

TW is at the leading edge of the authenticity movement, and surely that alone gives him considerable credibility. He also has talents as a kit-and-scratch builder that most of us can only dream of, but actively encourages us all to have a go. His Little Bytham layout showcases those talents. Hardly surprising that he has such a vibrant thread.  

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, truffy said:

Sure. It’s looooooooong and rambling. While I’m sure there are useful nuggets in there, there’s a hell of a lot of chaff. Just my opinion, obviously. 

OK

P

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

TW is at the leading edge of the authenticity movement, and surely that alone gives him considerable credibility. He also has talents as a kit-and-scratch builder that most of us can only dream of, but actively encourages us all to have a go. His Little Bytham layout showcases those talents. Hardly surprising that he has such a vibrant thread.  

That's better.

P

[truffy]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

TW is at the leading edge of the authenticity movement, and surely that alone gives him considerable credibility. He also has talents as a kit-and-scratch builder that most of us can only dream of, but actively encourages us all to have a go. His Little Bytham layout showcases those talents. Hardly surprising that he has such a vibrant thread.  

I don't doubt a word of it, Ian. But the last time I dipped into WW there seemed to be some discussion on the proper use of English. While that might make compelling reading on a forum dedicated to spoiling and grandma, it's somewhat obscure. I'm certainly not saying that it's wrong, and WW is totally for TW to do with as he wishes, that's the point. But, irrespective of credibility or whatever, it doesn't necessarily bid casual following; personal proclivities notwithstanding, of course.

Edited August 7, 2019 by truffy

[Mallard60022]

8 minutes ago, truffy said:

I don't doubt a word of it, Ian. But the last time I dipped into WW there seemed to be some discussion on the proper use of English. While that might make compelling reading on a forum dedicated to spoiling and grandma, it's somewhat obscure. I'm certainly not saying that it's wrong, and WW is totally for TW to do with as he wishes, that's the point. But, irrespective of credibility or whatever, it doesn't necessarily bid casual following; personal proclivities notwithstanding, of course.

The pompous and irrelevant guff on there about spelling and that sort of thing easily distracts and, in my case, is irritating. However, amongst the ramblings of a gang of generally older geezers, there are gems worth seeking. It is a bit like searching through the crap on eBay and then finding there one thing that is worth the time doing so. My thread is full of carp as well but I have learned so much and gained so much from folk that have bothered to look at it and for that I am very grateful. Oh, and yes, some of the carp is bloody funny too.

P

[w124bob]

There's an elephant in this particular forum room, no one can accuratetly state what is the correct shade of malachite green because no one has a time machine. Current preserved coaches wont be correct because they wont have been painted with an exact mix of the correct forumla , photograpic evidence isn't reliable for many reasons and as for memory, well! This argument is one that is just a waste of internet time, if you don't like Hornby's shade then don't buy the the products. Never mind the scale/gauge/coupling compromise, thats ok but the colour's the wrong shade so I'm chucking my dummy out the OO, P4, EM pram . Well I feel better now, off to WW to learn to spell!

 

[cctransuk]

36 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

The pompous and irrelevant guff on there about spelling and that sort of thing easily distracts and, in my case, is irritating. However, amongst the ramblings of a gang of generally older geezers, there are gems worth seeking. It is a bit like searching through the crap on eBay and then finding there one thing that is worth the time doing so. My thread is full of carp as well but I have learned so much and gained so much from folk that have bothered to look at it and for that I am very grateful. Oh, and yes, some of the carp is bloody funny too.

P

 

I am quite confident that the majority of the "gang of generally older geezers" would be more than content if those who find the "pompous and irrelevant guff"; "ramblings "; "crap"; etc. "irritating" could press the Ignore this topic button.

 

Much of what is posted on the WW thread relates to respecting others and their views - clearly this does not interest the younger element here.

 

If you don't have the courage to post your views on the thread in question, you won't be missed!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Mallard60022]

16 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I am quite confident that the majority of the "gang of generally older geezers" would be more than content if those who find the "pompous and irrelevant guff"; "ramblings "; "crap"; etc. "irritating" could press the Ignore this topic button.

 

Much of what is posted on the WW thread relates to respecting others and their views - clearly this does not interest the younger element here.

 

If you don't have the courage to post your views on the thread in question, you won't be missed!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Thank you John. Being a close and long standing friend of Mr Wright I suspect he may not be too worried by my comments and if he is he will tell me to ####  ###. However you seem to be upset and so if I have offended you than I apologise, but I have to say your comments are a little brusque. I have respected yours and others' views for years. Please don't jump to conclusions. If you were to read my post carefully you will understand that I am actually paying the man and his thread a big compliment. Let's leave it there shall we?

Phil Ramsay 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Mallard60022

[cctransuk]

Just now, Mallard60022 said:

Thank you John. Being a close and long standing friend of Mr Wright I suspect he may not be too worried by my comments and if he is he will tell me to ####  ###. However you seem to be upset and so if I have offended you than I apologise, but I have to say your comments are a little brusque. I have respected yours and others' views for years. Please don't jump to conclusions. Let's leave it there shall we?

Phil Ramsay 

 

All I am suggesting is that more moderate / respectful language can achieve the same end as the use of the quoted words / phrases.

 

It's all about mutual respect; (though those who know me will confirm that we Lancastrians call a spade a shovel when provoked)!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Mallard60022]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

All I am suggesting is that more moderate / respectful language can achieve the same end as the use of the quoted words / phrases.

 

It's all about mutual respect; (though those who know me will confirm that we Lancastrians call a spade a shovel when provoked)!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Quite.

Another old (very) geezer.

[truffy]

17 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Ignore this topic button.

If only it really did what it says on the tin (not, specifically, in regard to WW, just a general observation)

[Mallard60022]

38 minutes ago, w124bob said:

There's an elephant in this particular forum room, no one can accuratetly state what is the correct shade of malachite green because no one has a time machine. Current preserved coaches wont be correct because they wont have been painted with an exact mix of the correct forumla , photograpic evidence isn't reliable for many reasons and as for memory, well! This argument is one that is just a waste of internet time, if you don't like Hornby's shade then don't buy the the products. Never mind the scale/gauge/coupling compromise, thats ok but the colour's the wrong shade so I'm chucking my dummy out the OO, P4, EM pram . Well I feel better now, off to WW to learn to spell!

 

That's a shame buddy as it was just warming up

[Wickham Green]

Perhaps citing an elephant was unfortunate - as elephants, supposedly, have particularly long memories and a familiar shade of malachite might lead them to the next water hole or tasty browse.

 

Anyway, there are other sources of paint samples beyond fallible memories, dodgy colour photos and possibly suspect preserved vehicles. Apart from the paint manufacturers - like Williamsons - who supply the National Railway Museum, among others, and may base their colours on original formulations  there are amateur enthusiasts who scrape original paint samples off old rolling stock and structures then prepare those samples, cleaning, polishing and analysing them layer by layer in order to publish the results FOR ALL OF US. As I've said in the past, these gentlemen are not infallible and appear to have got it wrong with the malachite green in 1970 but I believe lessons have been learned and their current offerings are the best you're going to get .... until that time machine DOES come along.

 

Subject rekindled.

[Dunsignalling]

51 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Perhaps citing an elephant was unfortunate - as elephants, supposedly, have particularly long memories and a familiar shade of malachite might lead them to the next water hole or tasty browse.

 

Anyway, there are other sources of paint samples beyond fallible memories, dodgy colour photos and possibly suspect preserved vehicles. Apart from the paint manufacturers - like Williamsons - who supply the National Railway Museum, among others, and may base their colours on original formulations  there are amateur enthusiasts who scrape original paint samples off old rolling stock and structures then prepare those samples, cleaning, polishing and analysing them layer by layer in order to publish the results FOR ALL OF US. As I've said in the past, these gentlemen are not infallible and appear to have got it wrong with the malachite green in 1970 but I believe lessons have been learned and their current offerings are the best you're going to get .... until that time machine DOES come along.

 

Subject rekindled.

That's all correct, as far as it goes. However, the elephantine problem I perceive is that, because various compounds used in paint decades ago have been outlawed on health or environmental grounds we cannot compare like with like.

 

Yes, it is possible to formulate new paint to match a sample as it is now, but that ignores how the original paint has weathered and/or aged in the meantime and how it may continue to do so.

 

Thus, five or ten years down the road, the shade of the new paint will change, but almost certainly not in the same way as the old would have done so over the same period, either from where it began or from the point at which the new was matched to it.

 

The only option if one's personal opinion is that the shade is wrong is to mix up what you consider to be correct and repaint the things.

 

My judgement is that the colour applied by Hornby is probably closer to SR malachite that the BR colour. I have a shade of the latter "in my head" that I would prefer (and which doesn't match these models) but in the fifty-odd years since seeing these coaches in service I'm by no means certain that my colour vision has remained stable enough for my opinion to be any more valid than Hornby's. For one thing, I was a smoker back then (which makes colour vision unstable apart from all the other delights on offer) whereas I haven't been for the last 35 years.  

 

John

Edited August 7, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Wickham Green]

Well, https://hmrs.org.uk/southern-style-after-nationalisation-1948-1964.html offers samples for both S.R. and B.R. greens so we can compare our models with carefully researched colours - probably as close to the original as we're going to get ................... I wish they hadn't stuck them on a white background though !

[dibber25]

Can't remember what - if anything - I said in my Bulleid coach review, about the shade of green but it never hurts to re-iterate what we 'old geezers' have been saying for years - that no two people see colours the same and what looks right to me may well look wrong to someone else. And - of course - that using 'real' full-size colours on models will look wrong because the vast difference in size causes the light to be reflected differently, making the 'real' colour look too dark on small scale models. Hornby's green looks OK to me but I'm not sure which of the patchwork of different greens - faded and otherwise -  on a typical full-size train it is supposed to match. (CJL)

[Wickham Green]

5 hours ago, dibber25 said:

......... no two people see colours the same ..........

Indeed - and when you consider that any colour we THINK we see is ONLY our own brain's interpretation of whatever wavelength of light happens to fall on the receptors in our eyes it might be TOTALLY different to another person !  ........ but anyone who interprets, say, a blue-green* shade as green-blue is always likely to do so .... though that might change with age, of course.

 

* This is NOT a specific reference to the range of colours, mentioned once or twice in this thread, known as malachite. 

[sc2016]

On 02/06/2019 at 19:40, sc2016 said:

 

Hi, I meant off come back to you sooner to ask if you or someone else could help me by answering a few questions:

 

1. How long was these short coaches used on the Padstow/ NCR line?
2. Also when did the version Bachmann is producing appear on the Padstow/ NCR Line and how long for?

Thanks,

 

Samuel.

Can someone help with the two questions i put up several weeks ago? 

Thanks if somebody could help.