Help with coaches

[Karan Warner]

Firstly, Merry Christmas to you all. Secondly, I hope this is the right place to post this.

 

I came across this brilliant photo online. I don't know much about pre-grouping stock, and don't recognise the style of coach immediately behind the loco. Would someone be able to identify the type it is, as it looks very smart, and worth acquiring in model form. Thank you!

[hayfield]

The first coach looks like a period 1 with planked ends in full lined livery, the next has beading but unlined. Loco in MR livery?

[Marshall5]

I suspect that the first carriage is LMS 3rd class sleeping car #14241 of 1928 preserved by the NRM in 1977 and restored in 1978.http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=699 The second period 1 carriage could be one of the two ex Regional Control Train vehicles acquired around the same time and now loaned to the LMSCA one of which has been fully restored.  The compound was out on the main line c.1978-81 so this might date the photo.

Ray.

[brossard]

Bachmann did the loco a while ago.  In keeping with British model manufacturers tradition they failed to produce suitable coaching stock.    Bachmann did produce LMS PI coaches (3rd brake, and compo) but the livery was a fiction.  Getting the lined livery right is going to be difficult.

 

Rivarossi, eons ago, produced a couple of Royal Scot class locos AND a beautifully lined set of PI coaches.  Trouble is, they were scaled completely wrong being neither OO nor HO.

 

John

[Compound2632]

Bachmann did the loco a while ago.  In keeping with British model manufacturers tradition they failed to produce suitable coaching stock.    

 

To be fair, the Bachmann / NRM model of No. 1000 was "as preserved", so Mk1 carriages are totally appropriate, especially for the first period of use on railtours in the the early 60s.

[brossard]

Agree, why I never bought it.  I waited for a maroon loco suitable for the LMS era - never happened.  If your era is post 1934, PIII coaches are suitable and Hornby did a good variety.

 

John

[The Johnster]

Bachmann did the loco a while ago.  In keeping with British model manufacturers tradition they failed to produce suitable coaching stock.    Bachmann did produce LMS PI coaches (3rd brake, and compo) but the livery was a fiction.  Getting the lined livery right is going to be difficult.

 

Rivarossi, eons ago, produced a couple of Royal Scot class locos AND a beautifully lined set of PI coaches.  Trouble is, they were scaled completely wrong being neither OO nor HO.

 

John

 

The brake 3rd and compo you mention were originally from Mainline, and available in an LMS livery whose accuracy I am not qualified to comment on, or BR 1948-56 crimson and cream, which was pretty accurate as far as I am aware.  These turn up on 'Bay every now and then, and are not a bad buy, the worst features being the bogies, which have the brake blocks out of line with the wheel treads and the general lack of underframe detail.  The Mainline ones were fairly stiff runners compared to modern RTR.  There isn't much wrong with the bodywork, though, and the overthick sides are less obvious on this panelled type of coach than on later steel vehicles, so they can be worked up into acceptable models, even ones with scale pretensions if you replace the moulded handrail and door handles with wire and brass scale versions.

 

I think the Rivarvossi coaches were period 2 and at 3.8mm to the foot scale.  The periods are the general method of describing the 3 phases of LMS coach design, 1 being more or less a continuation of Midland practice, 2 being an updating of this in the late 20s, and 3 being the all steel flush glazed Staniers from 1934 I think.  These were still being built until the introduction of mk1s by BR in 1951.

[Steamport Southport]

The photograph is the cover of this book.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/National-Railway-Collection-Museum/dp/0002182157

 

If memory serves correctly it was a private train for all the bigwigs and guests using carriages from the NRM about the time of Rocket 150. As well as the carriages shown ISTR it had the MR Clerestory Dining Car and LNWR carriages.

 

 

 

Jason

[Karan Warner]

Thanks for the speedy replies. Very helpful, and equally as interesting!

[brossard]

The brake 3rd and compo you mention were originally from Mainline, and available in an LMS livery whose accuracy I am not qualified to comment on, or BR 1948-56 crimson and cream, which was pretty accurate as far as I am aware.  These turn up on 'Bay every now and then, and are not a bad buy, the worst features being the bogies, which have the brake blocks out of line with the wheel treads and the general lack of underframe detail.  The Mainline ones were fairly stiff runners compared to modern RTR.  There isn't much wrong with the bodywork, though, and the overthick sides are less obvious on this panelled type of coach than on later steel vehicles, so they can be worked up into acceptable models, even ones with scale pretensions if you replace the moulded handrail and door handles with wire and brass scale versions.

 

I think the Rivarvossi coaches were period 2 and at 3.8mm to the foot scale.  The periods are the general method of describing the 3 phases of LMS coach design, 1 being more or less a continuation of Midland practice, 2 being an updating of this in the late 20s, and 3 being the all steel flush glazed Staniers from 1934 I think.  These were still being built until the introduction of mk1s by BR in 1951.

 

You are right, originally Mainline and somewhat crude underframes.  I did an analysis of the bodies using Jenkinson's drawings and they are accurate.  I had started to upgrade mine, even pasting Comet all 3rd sides to one.  The underframes can be upgraded using Comet components.  However, I moved to O gauge and everything got sold off.

 

I was thinking of the alleged LMS coaches with a single yellow line along the center and one at the top.  I don't know where that came from.

 

I stand corrected on the Rivarossi coaches.  They were beautifully done but badly marketed since their scaling meant they were unacceptable to everyone, tragic really.

 

John

[The Johnster]

Triang Hornby, and Lima, both made BR mk1 coaches in pseudo GW and LMS liveries, and T/H did them in a cod Southern as well; this may be what you are thinking of.  They looked very different from an LMS period 1, though.  At the time Mainline produced it's period 1s, Hornby and Airfix were making LMS period 3 Staniers, the Airfix being much the better but one was restricted to the usual RTR offering of brake 3rd and composite with a restaurant car if you were lucky in those days, no all thirds, no brake compos.

[brossard]

TH was before my time.  I do remember the old Hornby PIII coaches, I had several.  Short by 4mm as most Hornby was at the time and, of course, limited to brake and compo.  Airfix coaches were scale length and the bodies at least were accurate.  I still have a bunch of the Airfix LMS NC coaches that I extensively upgraded.  These are still going under Dapol.  I had the Dapol (Which I think originated from someone else) 12 wheeled LMS restaurant, not a bad model at all.

 

John

[Steamport Southport]

The Dapol Restaurant Car was first released under Dapol but it's origins were Airfix. Most of the tooling was done by Mainline before they also went bust.

 

The original version had two chassis. A cutaway one and a "scale" one provided in the box.

 

According to Ramsay's Guide they had also planned a Sleeper.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

TH and Triang before them also made all their stuff 2mm too high off the rail as well, which made them very obviously incompatible with Lima, Mainline, Airfix, and even Hornby Dublo/Wrenn.  The TH period 3s were also inferior in that the window reveals did not include the ventilators, which were painted on to the plastic glazing.  The Airfix's and their derivates were not perfect, the 'glazing' being set in to the reveals making a sort of prismatic effect at the edges, which made the windows look too small, a common feature of models of the day.  They were much better than the THs, though!

 

Another problem back in those days was the thickness of the body sides, which led to the prismatic effect where the manufacturer attempted to provide 'flush' or near flush depth glazing on more modern steel bodied stock, or alternatively the glazing was behind the body side which led to the windows being far too deeply set in to the coach.  Limas were particularly bad for this, with body sides about 3mm, a scale 9 inches, thick; real coaches made of steel this thick would have been about 100 tons each!

 

Flush glazing kits were and still (I think) are available, but re-introduced the prismatic effect, reducing it by using thin plastic, but this led to the windows having a sort of bubble effect.  Modern coaches are much better, and worth the extra money in my view!

[brossard]

The original version had two chassis. A cutaway one and a "scale" one provided in the box.

 

 

 I recall mine had an extra chassis.

 

 

TH and Triang before them also made all their stuff 2mm too high off the rail as well, which made them very obviously incompatible with Lima, Mainline, Airfix, and even Hornby Dublo/Wrenn.  The TH period 3s were also inferior in that the window reveals did not include the ventilators, which were painted on to the plastic glazing.  The Airfix's and their derivates were not perfect, the 'glazing' being set in to the reveals making a sort of prismatic effect at the edges, which made the windows look too small, a common feature of models of the day.  They were much better than the THs, though!

 

Another problem back in those days was the thickness of the body sides, which led to the prismatic effect where the manufacturer attempted to provide 'flush' or near flush depth glazing on more modern steel bodied stock, or alternatively the glazing was behind the body side which led to the windows being far too deeply set in to the coach.  Limas were particularly bad for this, with body sides about 3mm, a scale 9 inches, thick; real coaches made of steel this thick would have been about 100 tons each!

 

Flush glazing kits were and still (I think) are available, but re-introduced the prismatic effect, reducing it by using thin plastic, but this led to the windows having a sort of bubble effect.  Modern coaches are much better, and worth the extra money in my view!

 TH stuff was really in the toy realm IMO.

 

Agree the biggest letdown of the Airfix NCs after my upgrade was the glazing.  I fitted some SE Finecast replacements.  These were better but not by much.  Shaw do laser cut window sets for the.  I have several but they probably won't get used since the coaches are on the block.

 

John

[The Johnster]

I replaced the glazing in my Airfix B set early this year, along with a repaint into BR crimson, and simply applied plastic glazing behind the windows.  My opinion is that, despite the body thickness, the appearance is improved and the windows look the right size now.  Still not 100% happy of course, and this set is scheduled for withdrawal as soon as Comet replacements are built.

Edited December 26, 2018 by The Johnster