The Royal Train

[Morello Cherry]

This might be of interest but the Pullman & CIWL newsletter has a regular feature using material from Christopher Lade who was a regular attendant on a number of Royal Trains.

 

It is a bit difficult to access but I go in through the Southern Railway E-Group and then latest updates and this then takes you to the PDF.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/updates.shtml

 

It is a veritable gold mine of information if you are interested in Royal trains for the 1950s-60s.

 

Normally p.16 onwards.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Morello Cherry

[keefer]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Some of those (railway staff) onboard certainly didn't like the noise judging by what they had to say about the thing despite them being well silenced.

Presumably those staff whose accommodation was in the Power Brake coach itself - I think they were named as Power Brake and Staff Couchette - even if they were well silenced, there must've been a certain amount of vibration. I suppose if it was constant you could get used to it but if the demands on the genny fluctuated, then the changing sound would be distracting.

[The Border Reiver]

The Preston to Carlisle section of the West Coast Main line was electrified on the 25kV overhead system; it was energised on 25 March 1974. A full electrically operated train service started on 6 May 1974.

On 7 May HM the Queen travelled the route and 'drove' the train from Preston to Lancaster. After this adventure 87018 took the Queen on to Carlisle, with Her Majesty travelling in the locomotive cab.

Technically not the royal train, but here is 87018 approaching then entering Carlisle Station

 

 

 

[keefer]

That's some mish-mash of stock, from probably the oldest (body) to the newest at the time.

Mk1 Test Car 'Mentor', Mk2f FO 3354, Prototype HST TRUK 10100 and TF 11002, LNWR saloon 45000 and Inspection Saloon DM395707

'Special train' tail lamps on the Inspection Saloon too. 

EDIT: To add coach numbers, thanks to Robert Carroll's picture at https://flic.kr/p/cSrtoS

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by keefer

[PerthBox]

 

2 hours ago, The Border Reiver said:

The Preston to Carlisle section of the West Coast Main line was electrified on the 25kV overhead system; it was energised on 25 March 1974. A full electrically operated train service started on 6 May 1974.

On 7 May HM the Queen travelled the route and 'drove' the train from Preston to Lancaster. After this adventure 87018 took the Queen on to Carlisle, with Her Majesty travelling in the locomotive cab.

Technically not the royal train, but here is 87018 approaching then entering Carlisle Station

 

 

 

The MENTOR coach has a commemorative plaque in one of the vestibules recording the fact that the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh rode in the coach between Preston and Lancaster on that day. I have a copy of the Royal Train notice for the trip but I’m geographically divorced from it at the moment so can’t scan it and post it here.

[The Border Reiver]

1 hour ago, keefer said:

That's some mish-mash of stock, from probably the oldest (body) to the newest at the time.

Mk1 Test Car 'Mentor', Mk2f FO 3354, Prototype HST TRUK 10100 and TF 11002, LNWR saloon 45000 and Inspection Saloon DM395707

'Special train' tail lamps on the Inspection Saloon too. 

EDIT: To add coach numbers, thanks to Robert Carroll's picture at https://flic.kr/p/cSrtoS

 

I have photos of the individual coaches

[keefer]

1 hour ago, PerthBox said:

 

The MENTOR coach has a commemorative plaque in one of the vestibules recording the fact that the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh rode in the coach between Preston and Lancaster on that day. I have a copy of the Royal Train notice for the trip but I’m geographically divorced from it at the moment so can’t scan it and post it here.

History of MENTOR at train testing.com: http://www.traintesting.com/Mentor.htm

Including the plaque:

Edited September 23, 2022 by keefer

[kevinlms]

On 21/09/2022 at 02:31, AlanRogers said:

 

Totally agree, but the majority of internet patrons regard Wikipedia as a definitive source of information which, due to the method of its compliation, it can never be. I'm not accusing it of inaccuracy, only that the information contained there should be regarded as "not original source material".

Really, so anyone that looks on Wikipedia is accepting the information as absolute? I use it as a starting point and often the only source, if I'm looking for general background information. Usually the issue is not important enough for me to spend hours researching thoroughly.

 

For instance I just looked up Black 5 number 4767, which is something I've not done for years, if ever.

 

I find that it was the only Black 5 fitted with Stephenson valve gear and is named George Stephenson, which of course I already knew. It was withdrawn after 20 years service and there is a list of MPD's that it was allocated to during service on BR.

It has been preserved and used on mainline rail tours and currently undergoing restoration.

 

There is plenty more information and I'm sure that I can find much more detailed information elsewhere, including this locos own website.

However, the point is, there appears to be no real reason for this Wikipedia page is be dismissed as nonsense, because it isn't primary source, but perhaps you know better?

 

Again I say, it depends on what the purpose is for your research. If I want some basic info on say the GWR's 'Great Bear', then 50 words will more than cover my interest in it, but if I wanted to build an accurate model of it, then I would need to find out vastly more information on it.

[The Stationmaster]

On 23/09/2022 at 14:47, The Border Reiver said:

The Preston to Carlisle section of the West Coast Main line was electrified on the 25kV overhead system; it was energised on 25 March 1974. A full electrically operated train service started on 6 May 1974.

On 7 May HM the Queen travelled the route and 'drove' the train from Preston to Lancaster. After this adventure 87018 took the Queen on to Carlisle, with Her Majesty travelling in the locomotive cab.

Technically not the royal train, but here is 87018 approaching then entering Carlisle Station

 

 

 

If it was conveying the Monarch then it would be treated, and signalled, as a Royal Train and as 45000 was in the formation there would have been a Train Officer plus various other staff who normally accompany such a working and if there was any catering that would no doubt have been covered in the usual way for RT catering personnel.

 

I do wonder if the trains are re-classified when the Monarch travels on ordinary services as was the case with HM going to/from Sandringham in later years.  I never had to deal with that sort of thing on the WR.

 

When she went to Calais to inaugurate the Channel Tunnel the Eurostar Class 373 ran as a Royal Train and carried various of the normal Royal Train staff carrying out what amounted to their usual duties while the Train Officer was provided by Eurostar UK.  I can't remember  without looking back through my papers who did the 'catering' but presume it would have been the usual 4Cs people who did the Eurostar catering because of the train's equipment but i doubt they did any serving.  

 

The main planning meeting was, unusually, the only RT planning meeting that I ever attended where I was not the Chairman running the meeting but we still had to 'put right' one or two people on various procedural aspects.  BT Police were excellent - three senior Supts/Chief Supts (one of whom later became ACC) all of whom I happened to be on first name terms with because I had known all of them, mainly through similar meetings, when they had been Inspectors.   But the meeting apart it was the most complex and awkward RT planning job I was ever involved with and my predecessor (hanging on for a few weeks to help out after I had taken over) and I spent  nearly a fortnight of long days devising and writing up the operational plan then re-doing parts of it after somebody decided they didn't want something done in the way they'd originally wanted it done.

 

One great thing about dealing with 'full Royal' train planning was that HMQ was always considerate of the work people had to do so once she'd decided on what she wanted (as assisted by her various advisors for tours etc) you know you could get on with the job and the customer's spec would not alter and create more work.  When I was presented to her during a Royal Train journey as part of GW150 and she was informed that I did the planning for such journeys she said that she very much hoped that she didn't cause problems by changing her mind.  I could, and did, honestly reply that was never the case.

[JimC]

14 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Really, so anyone that looks on Wikipedia is accepting the information as absolute? 

It's quite evident that many do. 

 

The worst thing about Wikipedia is the insistence on *not* using primary sources. A classic example of this was in the article about the GC London extension, where the Wikifanboys insisted the article should retain the nonsense about it being built to Berne gauge, since that was in a book, whereas the original gauge drawings were a primary source and invalid, and evidence from people who work on the preserved structures was original research and invalid! 

 

The talk page is both amusing and frustrating in equal measure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Great_Central_Main_Line. Someone eventually managed a form of words the fanatics would accept. I particularly like the statement that Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by JimC