The Royal Train

[PerthBox]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

How do other countries manage without a royal or presidential train…?

 

Sadly, imo, this was the moment the royal train was supposed to stand for, decades of planning, sadly failed at the moment of need.

 

I’m not sure its as needed for much younger family members.

 

 

 Japan has an Imperial Shinkansen.

 

As for the Royal Train, the King is very fond of it and has been by far its most frequent user in recent years so I wouldn't write it off yet.

[298]

One obvious problem now is if the Royal Train was used, what would the thousands of well wishers actually see? Wolverton don't have a Coffin coach, and certainly not a claret painted Mk3 DVT with glass doors that you'd struggle to get gauge clearance for the Windsor branch for that a brainstorming session would come up with. 

 

I probably could have seen ZZ177 if I'd known where to look when leaving work and FR24 hadn't faulted with all of the traffic, one nice touch would have been an escort from the Red Arrows even if they don't carry 400 miles of smoke.

Edited September 17, 2022 by 298

[Trestrol]

I believe one of the support brake carriages has provision to carry a coffin. 

[PerthBox]

4 hours ago, Trestrol said:

I believe one of the support brake carriages has provision to carry a coffin. 

2921 has a rotating table in the van end which was intended to take a coffin. Although interestingly the copy of the rail industry LONDON BRIDGE plan I have seen (dated 2017) states that the coffin would be placed in Royal Family Dining Saloon 2916 and illuminated with specially fitted lights for visibility from outside.

[adb968008]

On 16/09/2022 at 22:17, PerthBox said:

 Japan has an Imperial Shinkansen.

 

As for the Royal Train, the King is very fond of it and has been by far its most frequent user in recent years so I wouldn't write it off yet.

So does North Korea and China, but theres far more (>150 countries), without.

 

A lot more countries have presidential aircraft, helicopters and cars.

 

Time will out but I suspect two 178mph royal helicopters with 400 mile range will have considerable benefits for younger royals in getting around the country, and infinitely more flexible to arrange transport and security… which has just been demonstrated by completely removing the train from the current plan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PerthBox]

Ok, well I disagree with that assessment. 

[DavidB-AU]

On 16/09/2022 at 19:38, adb968008 said:

Theres no way this country will spend that kind of money on a luxury 800….  Just imagine the newspaper headlines.

 

Again, look at the way it's used in Japan. When not required for official use it can be hired as a charter train. They simply add an extra coach for the Emperor as required.

[DavidB-AU]

On 17/09/2022 at 07:17, PerthBox said:

 Japan has an Imperial Shinkansen.

 It's not a Shinkansen, it's a 130 km/h EMU that runs over the narrow gauge network. It can be hired for charters when not required as the Imperial Train.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E655_series

 

A bi-mode 800 variant could be used in the same way.

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

Again, look at the way it's used in Japan. When not required for official use it can be hired as a charter train. They simply add an extra coach for the Emperor as required.

Japan doesnt have British newspapers, and British Taxpayers, many of whom think their person contribution amounts to half the governments spend, and think that anyone earning more than them should be stripped of it.

 

Many would object to a Royal class 153, let alone an Azuma.

 

Planes, cars, helicopters are relatively inconspicuous to joe public… but a train stands out.

Edited September 19, 2022 by adb968008

[Phil Parker]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Japan doesnt have British newspapers, and British Taxpayers, many of whom think their person contribution amounts to half the governments spend, and think that anyone earning more than them should be stripped of it.

 

Many would object to a Royal class 153, let alone an Azuma.

 

Planes, cars, helicopters are relatively inconspicuous to joe public… but a train stands out.

 

I'm not sure that the noisier majority think rich people should be stripped of money. I seem to recall an inheritance tax proposal on property that would only have affected the top 1% of houses being shouted down years ago. Largely because media types, who might live in that 1%, organised newspaper and TV campaigns (Kirsty Allsop on Question Time sticks in my mind). The British People (TM) are very good at doffing their caps to their "betters".

 

As far as the train goes, I'd say this was a special event that can be seperated from all the other uses of the train. It couldn't be significantly delayed, and you can't easily detrain the passengers (especially one of them) if some idiot glues themselves to the tracks in front of it. Also, the train was expected to be pelted with flowers, gifts and other stuff. My guess is that the official car (which will also be pelted) has been made bullet proof. Cab windows in the loco to be used, less so.

 

In normal use, if the train is halted, you unload everyone into a car/helicopter/jetpack and carry on. But then it's also a less appealing target for protest and marmalade sandwiches.

[APOLLO]

It's not the point that the rich be stripped of their money more than a full audit needs to be made on where the £millions (billions in some cases) has originated from, AND has the due tax been levied.

 

It will never happen.

 

Brit15

[The Stationmaster]

Late to the latest views at this party and what a load of cobblers from some sources - some of whom clearly don't have the faintest idea why the train is used.  If you understood that you might appreciate the main reason for keeping it although times do change and perhaps the younger members of the family might not see it in quite the same way.  However on today's railways there have been changes which might mitigate against use of the train in its traditional, and most commonly used, way.

 

As for London Bridge (which is in fact a series of plans, not 'an operation')  I can say from direct experience of actually doing so that it is regularly reviewed and updated.  But from considerable experience of planning trains conveying members of the Royal Family and knowing therefore exactly what can be involved the chances of using the train for moving Her Late Majesty from either Edinburgh to London or London to Windsor would create so much operational havoc on the railway of today that you could forget it.  If you understood what would be involved you wouldn't even think of doing it in the first place.

 

PS Unlike, I suspect, most (all other?) people contributing to this thread I have actually travelled on the Royal Train and in fact had morning coffee with HM The Queen and HRH The Duke of Edinburgh on the train.  If you think it is the lap of luxury you are a long way from the reality.  Comfortable yes - but luxurious no way - if you want the luxury bit go travel on something like the Royal Scotsman.

 

May her late Majesty rest in peace and God Save The King 

Edited September 19, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[woodenhead]

Another reasonn for choosing road for such an important event.

 

Today, no trains between Slough/Heathrow and Paddington due to OHLE damage.

 

All it would have taken is some track related defect to cause a stop in services out of Waterloo to throw planning out of the window whilst the world looked on.  A motorcade can simply alter it's route.

[Phil Parker]

32 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As for London Bridge (which is in fact a series of plans, not 'an operation')  I can say from direct experience of actually doing so that it is regularly reviewed and updated.  But from considerable experience of planning trains conveying members of the Royal Family and knowing therefore exactly what can be involved the chances of using the train for moving Her Late Majesty from either Edinburgh to London or London to Windsor would create so much operational havoc on the railway of today that you could forget it.  If you understood what would be involved you wouldn't even think of doing it in the first place.

 

And yet there were ever angrier instances on Twitter from people in the know that the rail industry was convinved it could be done. But none seemed to be able to answer about people gluing themselves to track.

 

There's even a rant article by Christian Wolmar in the Spectator saying the same, but again glossing over (IMHO) the difficult bits, and assuming that everyone would behave.

[Kris]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Another reasonn for choosing road for such an important event.

 

Today, no trains between Slough/Heathrow and Paddington due to OHLE damage.

 

All it would have taken is some track related defect to cause a stop in services out of Waterloo to throw planning out of the window whilst the world looked on.  A motorcade can simply alter it's route.

The fact that there has been problems on the line out of Paddington today makes me grateful that the train was not chosen. Had the plan been for rail transport the negative press from the problems would have been very damaging to the whole industry. 

[Phil Bullock]

31 minutes ago, Kris said:

The fact that there has been problems on the line out of Paddington today makes me grateful that the train was not chosen. Had the plan been for rail transport the negative press from the problems would have been very damaging to the whole industry. 

Agreed …. According to the Beeb it’s been chaos 

 

Rail problems on 19th September 2022

 

 

[ovbulleid]

53 minutes ago, Kris said:

The fact that there has been problems on the line out of Paddington today makes me grateful that the train was not chosen. Had the plan been for rail transport the negative press from the problems would have been very damaging to the whole industry. 

What that doesn’t factor in is the fact that the royal 67’s (and any steam engines brought in for the day) wouldn’t require OHLE anyway so would be unaffected…

On another point, I was told by the train staff and police that the coffin would have been carried in one of the Mk2’s, not convinced they liked the blinds being open in the ‘principle’ carriages.

[Phil Parker]

5 minutes ago, ovbulleid said:

What that doesn’t factor in is the fact that the royal 67’s (and any steam engines brought in for the day) wouldn’t require OHLE anyway so would be unaffected…

 

It depends what's wrong with it. If the tracks are full of knitting, nothing's going through, no matter how it's powered.

[PhilH]

5 minutes ago, ovbulleid said:

What that doesn’t factor in is the fact that the royal 67’s (and any steam engines brought in for the day) wouldn’t require OHLE anyway so would be unaffected…

 

Apart from all the trains that were affected and stuck in the wrong place getting in the way…

[Mike_Walker]

The problem on the GWML is that 1K01, the first train of the day from Bedwyn (800026) brought down the OLE between Hayes and Southall West Jn which is the 1990's headspans like the ECML.  This has resulted in all four lines being affected with debris and many trains are stranded on all lines so nothing can currently move on any line.

 

The route is expected to remain closed between Paddington and Slough for the rest of the day.  Services are turning at Reading with a Reading to Slough shuttle.

 

Update:  Apparently 2 miles of OLE have been damaged and needs to be replaced.  Disruption likely to continue into tomorrow.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Mike_Walker

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The British People (TM) are very good at doffing their caps to their "betters".

 

I was brought up with idea of silence and taking one's hat off to show respect to the deceased, whereas the contemporary fashion for applauding the passing of a hearse strikes me as inappropriate if not slightly disrespectful. 

 

I suppose old farts like me should take comfort that at least those invited to Westminster Abbey were still following the funereal tradition of wearing black ties and dark suits, the ladies wearing hats in church ... "git yer bleedin 'at 'orf, yer in the 'ouse of Gawd" only ever applied to men (though it was OK for men in multi-coloured frocks to wear pointy hats).

[keefer]

Polite applause I can handle but the cheering, whooping and whistling was too much. I know others will say that everyone has their own way of showing their appreciation but (quite aside from it being the Queen) it is a funeral and quiet respect should be shown.

A memorial or tribute service would be another matter perhaps but the funeral is supposed to be solemn.

(Just my opinion)

[lmsforever]

Think the response by people has been very good a very moving day which many will never forget.

[wombatofludham]

I must admit I find the idea of the crowds applauding and even cheering absolutely disgraceful and not what should be done.  And, despite being asked not to, some still felt the need to throw foliage at the procession, which is downright dangerous for motorcycle outriders and a nightmare for the security officers who cannot be sure the airborne volley is of dead foliage or something more sinister.

It also confirms the decision not to use the Royal Train for the long journey south from Scotland, most of which would be under 25kV overhead, was sadly the right one.  One bunch of flowers in the wrong place could have had serious consequences.

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

And yet there were ever angrier instances on Twitter from people in the know that the rail industry was convinved it could be done. But none seemed to be able to answer about people gluing themselves to track.

 

There's even a rant article by Christian Wolmar in the Spectator saying the same, but again glossing over (IMHO) the difficult bits, and assuming that everyone would behave.

Well if Wolmar is ranting and saying how easy it is that very definitely proves that it would be very difficult.  Incidentally I wonder if Wolmar realises the consequences of saying that he had seen some of the London Bridge plans because prior to the need to obviously involve more people when implementing them they are Strictly Confidential documents to be kept under lock & key.  Back when I was involved with such things they were only permitted to be seen by people with the appropriate (positively vetted) level of security clearance.

 

The security issue is in many respects a nice bright red herring.  The only difference from many years of normal RT operation being the likelihood that if it were publicly known about in advance some nutter might possibly do something to prove how nutty they really are.  But thinking of that it is interesting to note that this morning the detailed route of the Royal funeral cortege fromWellington Arch to Windsor was published, well before the event.  And there were gaps in the police coverage of the route.  Not quite the same thing as the railway but plenty of time for someone to superglue themselves to the road before a copper could intervene.

 

Security has been advanced as a reason for not using the train and it's quite a good argument as it instantly deflects the likes of Wolmar, and many others with similarly limited knowledge,  from thinking any further about the really good reasons for not using the train (including the far noisier, and genuinely much more serious, public reaction to the consequences of its use).  So in PR terms the decision not to use the train has - I think - been quite deftly explained away with some logical sounding reasoning to support that decision.