The Royal Train

[jamie92208]

I was lucky enough to see such working several times in my career and through liaison with BTP got to see some of the stabling locations. Most of which no longer exist.  The occupants certainly saw some lovely parts of the country.   HMQ got ready for a gala dinner in Leeds on her silver jubilee tour, whilst stabled in St John's Colliery sidings at Goose Hill Junction.   The pit was still a working one.   That night whe went to the long closed Barlow tip, just north of Drax power station. Lady Di used a now closed line near Crigglestone for an overnight stay (With an absolutely filthy 47 from Healey Mills providing ETH).   Somewhere I've got quite a few photos and will try and scan them.

 

However there is a royal connection with Green Ayre.   The Midland's royal coach, now at Butterley, was furnished by Gillows of Lancaster.  The coach had to be returned for refurbishing every coupe of years, and this was done in the last remaining part of the former (Little) North Western Railway loco shed which Gillows then used as it was next to their timber yard.   This is modelled on my layout and John Patrick made a lovely model of the coach so that we can do the rather complicated movement necessary to get it into the shed.

 

Jamie

[G-BOAF]

Anyone else a bit miffed at the absence of the Royal Train in the current activities? I know that during COVID the plan to bring the queen back from Scotland to London by train was moved to RAF transport, but it seems that ROAD transport will be used from London to Windsor. Why not the train from Paddington?

 

What is the point in having a royal train if it cannot be used???

[AY Mod]

Twattle - https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-queen-s-final-journey-should-have-been-by-train?fbclid=IwAR3fN31L65htdPE5A_Kt5RCbPxywO-xzlz0q7EwmYwWEh8sy7nYf7gkcmTY

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Anyone else a bit miffed at the absence of the Royal Train in the current activities? I know that during COVID the plan to bring the queen back from Scotland to London by train was moved to RAF transport, but it seems that ROAD transport will be used from London to Windsor. Why not the train from Paddington?

 

What is the point in having a royal train if it cannot be used???

A trip by road is more visible, people can stand at the side of the road to view the movement, with a train it will lead to people cramping on to stations and as we've seen with the Flying Moneypit potential trespass to get a view.

 

In this circumstance, I feel that road will lead to less potential risk.

[JDW]

I suspect it might have something to do with the ability to police it - or more to the point, police the people watching it. On the road sections of the journey, it's easy enough for people to line the road, and also for the cars to pick a path between them if needed (though people generally seemed to remain at a respectful distance along the kerb). On the railway, look at what has happened for thinks like Flying Scotsman in the not too distant past, crowds along the edge of platforms, trespassing on embankments and bridges... Even if the train itself ran slowly (which to a degree is impractical in itself), the people straying too close have no concept of other traffic on the railway, nor how close it's safe to be regardless of how close they can legally be. Logistically and practically - especially with modern technology telling people where and when - it's almost a non-started despite on the face of it seeming a better option. 

------------------
Andy's linked to the item I was trying to find as I was typing, which suggests it's health & safety nonsense, and although I'd like that to be the case, I don't think it is, and the reality would be an almost unmanagable mass of people at stations, or ones who couldn't fit in or get there trespassing. I'm not even sure the suggestion that we couldn't police rural stretches of lines is right - we no doubt could, but it's a question of could it be done in a sensible and practical way. As much as I'd like to say so, I'm not convinced that it would be realistically achievable. The world has moved on since Queen Victoria died. The railways are no longer the same - for better or worse - nor are the people, and nor is how we live, act and behave. 

[jamie92208]

One of the Kennedeys, IIRC Robert's coffin was taken by train up the North East corrider hauled  by a GG1 and there were huge problems with trespass and I think at least one fatality.  The train was used to get the Royals from Euston to Long Buckby for Diana's interment.  However the coffin went slowly up the M1 which was kept free of traffic.  I wondered why the train wasn't used this time but having seen the crowds feel that the right decisions were made.

 

Jamie

[Bob83a]

47 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Anyone else a bit miffed at the absence of the Royal Train in the current activities? I know that during COVID the plan to bring the queen back from Scotland to London by train was moved to RAF transport, but it seems that ROAD transport will be used from London to Windsor. Why not the train from Paddington?

 

What is the point in having a royal train if it cannot be used???

Windsor Central station is too small for the Royal Train now, only suitable for 3 car Dmu. For the royal train by the time the loco was in the platform not much else would get in. Plus it would need to be top and tailed as there is no run around. Road to Paddington, rail to Slough and then road to Windsor would be a bit ridiculous.

 

Waterloo to Riverside would be better route.

 

But all by road is the best option.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

A trip by road is more visible, people can stand at the side of the road to view the movement, with a train it will lead to people cramping on to stations and as we've seen with the Flying Moneypit potential trespass to get a view.

 

In this circumstance, I feel that road will lead to less potential risk.

Much as I appreciated the use of the railway and being able to watch the funeral train going past after our last state funeral (Churchill),  I have to agree.

 

I stood by the side of the A40 in Greenford on Tuesday evening to pay my last respects as the Queen was taken from Northolt to Buckingham Palace and the behaviour of some of the crowd who crossed to the central reservation when the main traffic flow was stopped (and were shouted at by the police to return which they did) convinced me that the same scenes alongside the railway or at stations along the long route from Edinburgh, or even on the shorter run from Waterloo to Windsort and Eaton Riverside, could have had dire consequences.

It would also have disrupted railways services over presumably the ECML for hours whereas the A40 was closed to normal traffic on the Easbound for about fifteen minutes with the westbound brought to a standstill for about twenty to twenty five minutes. The police also closed the footbridges over the A40 from five PM. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Pacific231G

[great central]

I think this bit of video sums up the potential problems pretty well, and this particular dork is an enthusiast rather than a member of the 'general public', who we might have expected to be more aware of the risks!

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by great central
Add link, d'oh!

[DY444]

AIUI 67s are not cleared to Central and Royal Train operations in recent years have used Riverside.  That means either Waterloo or Victoria which don't have easy vehicle access to the platforms, or a convoluted journey from Paddington.  If it went to Riverside then you have the trespass issue on third rail routes plus both branches and stations are going to be very busy.  A road journey is easier to police and allows more people to see the procession safely from the roadside. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by DY444

[adb968008]

Charles is quite able, indeed the rest of the royals are.

the benefits of flight, even short domestic legs between Cardiff and London this week are clear.
 

Given how difficult it is to arrange and manage the train, and relative ease of flight, I do think the absence of the Royal Train, in the funeral, is an indicator that it hasnt got much of a future role.

[DavidB-AU]

39 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Given how difficult it is to arrange and manage the train, and relative ease of flight, I do think the absence of the Royal Train, in the funeral, is an indicator that it hasnt got much of a future role.

 

Probably not in its present form. Some variant of the class 800 would be an ideal replacement and used much like the Japanese royal train.

[adb968008]

50 minutes ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

Probably not in its present form. Some variant of the class 800 would be an ideal replacement and used much like the Japanese royal train.

Theres no way this country will spend that kind of money on a luxury 800….  Just imagine the newspaper headlines.

They shouldnt need to either, Aside of being old, the current mk 3 set is probably the least used passenger stock in the country and in best condition given most of its life is undercover inside Wolverton works, theres at least a decade or so in mk3 spares to go at.

 

But image is everything, the Queen by Train, living in an old era appeals to the masses… But William and Kate ? Young modern jet set royals arriving in a train that used to belong to his grandmother ?

 

Only recent equivalent of new royal trains in Europe is the DSB  Pendolino “purloined” from the production line by Berlesconi and given to Gaddafi without DSBs knowledge or approval.

Private trains dont really exist… its all about private jets and fast cars today.. everything else a government office or a good hotel can provide…

 

ATC for flight and Police knowledge of roads is domain knowledge… it appears the train is hard to plan, manage and a select few can do it, unfortunately I think todays bespoke niche railway has become too darwinian for things like this.

I could imagine though, that taking out the specific royal saloons for the NRM, the rest of the train might find a niche in the luxury charter market. There could be a unique position for LSL to take over that shed at Wolverton Works as a Southern base though.

Edited September 16, 2022 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

The royal train offers several advantages over road, in no particular order 

• It allows themselves to put their feet up, have a cuppa or a kip before/after whatever duties they have to perform (probably relatively little need to dine, as royal functions usually seem to involve a formal dinner or tea!). 
• It enables them to change clothing conveniently, use toilets, even have a bath en route without needing to make a pit stop.
• It gives them a travelling office when they have official paperwork to attend to.
• support staff can travel with them
• they can have privacy should they so wish
• When the threat from extremists is elevated, additional armed security personnel can be conveyed more discreetly. 
• the whereabouts of the target within the vehicle are not as obvious to any potential sniper

The same benefits would apply with an exeecutive jet, the principal advantage to any businessman or VIP being that the time spent in travelling isn't necessarily wasted, and they can get on with other things requiring their attention.  Major differences between rail and air are the journey time where air wins and the location of stations vs airstrips - rail is better for city centre to city centre.

[Nearholmer]

The green angle isn’t to be ignored. OK, compared with a normal, busy train full of mere mortals the resource consumption per mile for as few as one total is dreadful, but compared with air travel, linking road transport, and Uber-posh hotels/mansions when on tour it isn’t bad, and hopefully our new monarch will spot that.

[jjb1970]

One advantage of aircraft is utilization, RAF jets can also ferry government ministers around and be used for urgent operational tasks if necessary. For example, the large VIP A330 is still an A330MRTT which can be reconfigured for military duties very quickly.

[woodenhead]

The choice of transport will come down purely to suitability:

• Car - short hops
• Air - direct A-B travel over several hundred miles with cars for onward hops where no overnight accomodation required or a royal residence is within driving distance, would include unexpected travel as easier to organise than a train
• Train - touring where the Monarch or senior Royal is going to be visiting many locations around the UK in short succession - it's a moving royal residence and that's where it trumps other forms of travel.

[Mallard60022]

21 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

Anyone else a bit miffed at the absence of the Royal Train in the current activities? I know that during COVID the plan to bring the queen back from Scotland to London by train was moved to RAF transport, but it seems that ROAD transport will be used from London to Windsor. Why not the train from Paddington?

 

What is the point in having a royal train if it cannot be used???

2 things. Logistics and Security. I'm not miffed at all. Totally sensible decisions.

It's going to be 'bad' enough on the road route.

P

[Mallard60022]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The royal train offers several advantages over road, in no particular order 

• It allows themselves to put their feet up, have a cuppa or a kip before/after whatever duties they have to perform (probably relatively little need to dine, as royal functions usually seem to involve a formal dinner or tea!). 
• It enables them to change clothing conveniently, use toilets, even have a bath en route without needing to make a pit stop.
• It gives them a travelling office when they have official paperwork to attend to.
• support staff can travel with them
• they can have privacy should they so wish
• When the threat from extremists is elevated, additional armed security personnel can be conveyed more discreetly. 
• the whereabouts of the target within the vehicle are not as obvious to any potential sniper

The same benefits would apply with an exeecutive jet, the principal advantage to any businessman or VIP being that the time spent in travelling isn't necessarily wasted, and they can get on with other things requiring their attention.  Major differences between rail and air are the journey time where air wins and the location of stations vs airstrips - rail is better for city centre to city centre.

Fine, unless you are dead.

P

[Mallard60022]

Slightly OT, however the KIng will be associated with the P2 Build by the A1 Trust. It is The Prince of Wales at present. I strongly suspect a rename and then he will have it on certain Occasions, where Risk Assessment and logistics allow. Probably rarely but maybe more in Scotland?

Phil

[ovbulleid]

I was lucky enough to go onboard the Royal Train while it waited for its principle several years ago. The aspect which isn’t much spoken about in public (but should be appreciated here) is that it is reconfigurable- a day trip by the Queen could see different carriages used by PoW going overnight to Scotland. Being predominantly 67 hauled it has high route availability so can pull into local stations or a city centre whereas a plane can only land at an airport or a convenient RAF base (that said, those who aren’t afraid of them do use helicopters). A future royal train needs to be easily divisible so you aren’t lugging around sleeper carriages for day trips etc, with a light enough axle-load to get around all the routes, with a couple of locos at each end for redundancy. Without going into details, there is a lot more to the current train than meets the eye, and I’m sure a fleet of Mark 5’s or re-bogied Mk 3’s would keep the service going. The unknown aspect is whether HMK will be willing to splash out on a new train or just to retire the old one without replacement.

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The royal train offers several advantages over road, in no particular order 

• It allows themselves to put their feet up, have a cuppa or a kip before/after whatever duties they have to perform (probably relatively little need to dine, as royal functions usually seem to involve a formal dinner or tea!). 
• It enables them to change clothing conveniently, use toilets, even have a bath en route without needing to make a pit stop.
• It gives them a travelling office when they have official paperwork to attend to.
• support staff can travel with them
• they can have privacy should they so wish
• When the threat from extremists is elevated, additional armed security personnel can be conveyed more discreetly. 
• the whereabouts of the target within the vehicle are not as obvious to any potential sniper

 

On the other hand the modern efficient rail network means the routes available are constrained to rather predictable choices increasing the security risk/hassle.

 

Most of the other advantages can be done using a hotel suite/floor/etc.

 

The train, much like the former yacht, is a part of the past that doesn't really fit into the modern world for travel planning for the royals.

[jamie92208]

8 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The royal train offers several advantages over road, in no particular order 

• It allows themselves to put their feet up, have a cuppa or a kip before/after whatever duties they have to perform (probably relatively little need to dine, as royal functions usually seem to involve a formal dinner or tea!). 
• It enables them to change clothing conveniently, use toilets, even have a bath en route without needing to make a pit stop.
• It gives them a travelling office when they have official paperwork to attend to.
• support staff can travel with them
• they can have privacy should they so wish
• When the threat from extremists is elevated, additional armed security personnel can be conveyed more discreetly. 
• the whereabouts of the target within the vehicle are not as obvious to any potential sniper

The same benefits would apply with an exeecutive jet, the principal advantage to any businessman or VIP being that the time spent in travelling isn't necessarily wasted, and they can get on with other things requiring their attention.  Major differences between rail and air are the journey time where air wins and the location of stations vs airstrips - rail is better for city centre to city centre.

One huge advantage not mentioned above is the ability to provide secure overnight accommodation for thevprincipal(s) and their staff.  Providing such security in a city centre hotel would be an absolute nightmare both for the secirity services and the public.  The ability to hide it away in obscure locations is a huge asset.  

 

This has not always gone quite as well as expected. When I was 5 the trai with HMQ and the Dof E on board was stabled on the Ingleton branch at Clapham now in North Yorks.  The station is over a mile from the village.  Myself and the local policeman's son were the only kids at school on time that morning.  The others had all gone to the station to cheer the trains occupants at 08.15.  Apparently  the duke was not best pleased and expressed his view to them quite strongly.

 

Jamie

[adb968008]

How do other countries manage without a royal or presidential train…?

 

Sadly, imo, this was the moment the royal train was supposed to stand for, decades of planning, sadly failed at the moment of need.

 

I’m not sure its as needed for much younger family members.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

27 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

 

This has not always gone quite as well as expected. When I was 5 the trai with HMQ and the Dof E on board was stabled on the Ingleton branch at Clapham now in North Yorks. 

 

I remember a signalman telling me that once whilst he was on nights the train was stabled on a curve that wasn't needed overnight with them on board.  Now a signalbox at night can be a ghostly place to be in the dark and strangers outside can be disconcerting when you're on your own.  That's why some signalmen like to take a big dog to work with them or keep a baseball bat handy in case of trouble.  Anyway, this chap was nervous for the whole of that shift as from time to time he could see the odd flash from a torch or hear unusual noises from that general direction as the security people crept about on patrol.  As dawn was breaking his nerves were finally beginning to settle and he put his breakfast on.  Just then he heard heavy footsteps coming up the box staircase - and as he got ready to defend himself against an intruder he went to the door and met - HRH the Duke taking as early morning stroll!