South Western Railway - Chaos

[melmoth]

2 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

Well looks like the same genius is operating Salisbury Panel this AM .............................

Why would anyone put a heavily loaded Class 6 stone train running 2 1/2 hours late out a mere 7 minutes in front of a Class 1 passenger booked for just one stop at Andover whilst the freight faces a number of steep climbs all the way to Basingstoke. 

Already bumping this thing's tail lamp and 9 minutes late not even half way to Andover 

Crazy regulation ...............................

 

@PaulRhB might be to assist here

[DenysW]

It's my understanding that the Midland Railway's Traffic Control system fixed this in 1909, and was therefore given a glowing write-up in the Railway Gazette for 1922. Are you telling me that the rest of the world wasn't listening?

[The Stationmaster]

32 minutes ago, DenysW said:

It's my understanding that the Midland Railway's Traffic Control system fixed this in 1909, and was therefore given a glowing write-up in the Railway Gazette for 1922. Are you telling me that the rest of the world wasn't listening?

Different control arrangements appl,ied on the different Regions of BR so clearluy that had similarly been the case prior to nationlaisation, and earlier.

 

Under the Midland system Control got very involved in. train regulating decisions down to a very low level, on various other Companies, and BR Regions, train regulating was very much the responsibility of Signalmen with Control, or Notices, occasionally giving various priority Instructions or priority solely being settled by headcode.  In fact in some situations the simple initiation/sending of a single telegraphic code word could result in decisions being made in a different way and a particular train being given priority over all others.

 

One consequence of privytisation was that headcode priority for regulating was largely replaced by 'booked train order being maintained' irrespective of headcode - which could, and did, lead to ludicrous situations.

 

We of course, writing from well outside the fence, don't know what did, or didn't decide priority in this particular case.   It can be just as important for freight trains and resources to meet their turnrounds and subsequent workings as it can be for passenger trains. 

[DenysW]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It can be just as important for freight trains and resources to meet their turnrounds and subsequent workings as it can be for passenger trains. 

One of the stated benefits of the Midland's micro-management system was that compliance with 8-hr day regulations was greatly improved - the sort of thing that might give the slow freight priority over the express passenger service.

 

I don't recall the Railway Gazette account really covering adverse weather, especially fog, or breakdowns.

[Dunsignalling]

Prior to the recontrol of the WoE boxes West of Salisbury in 2012, there was an unwritten law that Control was only invoked if we couldn't agree a course of action between ourselves!

 

It was an almost universally held opinion among the signallers that few of the controllers really understood, or indeed wished to get involved in, regulating traffic over single lines.

 

Those that were good at it, though, were very good indeed. Thus, when "kicking the decision upstairs" did become unavoidable, one fervently  hoped to hear one of the "right" voices when the phone was answered!

 

I remember amusing a Scots lady Controller who really did know her stuff, by saying "thank God" out loud, when she picked up, rather than just thinking it! 😆

 

John

Edited January 19 by Dunsignalling

[Oldddudders]

41 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

It was an almost universally held opinion among the signallers that few of the controllers really understood, or indeed wished to get involved in, regulating traffic over single lines.

Off-LSWR, but germane. 

 

Redhill Control circa 1960 (before my time there). The signalman at Ashurst Junction asks Control about priorities. "The Down is 20 late and coming down to Forest Row [last passing point] and I've got the Up coming from Groombridge. Which should I run?" Fair question. This is the evening peak, so Controller says "Run the Down, please." "Cor, you won't half cane the Up one!" Controller thinks again. After all, hardly anybody on the Down by this time, and the engine on the Up goes light from Victoria to Clapham Junction Western for something. "OK, run the Up one'" "Cor, you won't half cane the Down one!" Sometimes you wonder why you came to work.....

[Dunsignalling]

43 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Off-LSWR, but germane. 

 

Redhill Control circa 1960 (before my time there). The signalman at Ashurst Junction asks Control about priorities. "The Down is 20 late and coming down to Forest Row [last passing point] and I've got the Up coming from Groombridge. Which should I run?" Fair question. This is the evening peak, so Controller says "Run the Down, please." "Cor, you won't half cane the Up one!" Controller thinks again. After all, hardly anybody on the Down by this time, and the engine on the Up goes light from Victoria to Clapham Junction Western for something. "OK, run the Up one'" "Cor, you won't half cane the Down one!" Sometimes you wonder why you came to work.....

Sometimes you just can't win!

 

We had a fairly common problem when trains got late, the delay would often creep up to 20 minutes. Because of the single line sections, that meant all the trains would eventually get 20 late. 

 

The only way to recover the service was to pick one train and hold it for a further 20 minutes, thereby allowing the unaffected ones to run in their booked paths.

 

The difficulty was always that West of Salisbury, down trains generally had little recovery time, whereas most up trains had some from Salisbury onward.

 

The theory was always to prioritise the train with the greatest distance still to travel, but it wasn't necessarily the best course.

 

One really had to find out whether what initially started the trouble had been cleared. If not, trying to deal with the reactionary delays could make things worse!

 

No point holding a down for the up if the latter was going to get held further East!

 

John

[Southernman46]

But today was EAST of Salisbury and a late Class 6 out in front of an on time Class 1 when the terrain is also against the 6 - poor regulation whatever rule / century / railway administration you care to invoke .....................

[Southernman46]

21 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

@PaulRhB might be to assist here

S'why I've been so surprised at the last two mornings, Salisbury Panel are usually OK. Hoping Paul will put me straight - maybe the "box" cat was on the panel 🤣

Edited January 20 by Southernman46

[ess1uk]

Meanwhile 

https://railuk.com/environment/south-western-railway-leads-the-way-in-improving-air-quality-at-stations-with-air-purifying-technology-at-salisbury/amp/

[ess1uk]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-68094997

[ess1uk]

https://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/24079204.network-rail-saves-two-lost-dogs-railway-line-wiltshire/

 

it’s all going on

[phil-b259]

On 19/01/2024 at 09:45, Southernman46 said:

Well looks like the same genius is operating Salisbury Panel this AM .............................

Why would anyone put a heavily loaded Class 6 stone train running 2 1/2 hours late out a mere 7 minutes in front of a Class 1 passenger booked for just one stop at Andover whilst the freight faces a number of steep climbs all the way to Basingstoke. 

Already bumping this thing's tail lamp and 9 minutes late not even half way to Andover 

Crazy regulation ...............................

 

Because if the freight is running to time and gets delayed (or misses its path on some other bit of the network Network Rail would presumably have to pay compensation to the Freight operator (and potentially other TOCs if it causes further delays)

 

If the late running SWR train gets even later then its only SWRs problem - particularity if the only thing it delays is other SWR services as they will end up just paying compensation to themselves!

Edited January 27 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

On 17/01/2024 at 20:50, Southernman46 said:

Well - today score one more to NR's litany of failure on the WOE route - a SINGLE point failure at Tisbury at 12:30 lunchtime and it has destroyed the WOE service until the end of the day - HOW on God's earth should that be possible - Golden Assets - absolute rubbish.

 

Because lots of NR faulting depots have massive staff shortages / competence issues! A legacy of stopping all recruitment during / after Covid and people wanting out as a result of 'modernising maintenance' changes along with the usual retirements etc.

 

The ban on working with lookouts has also had a big effect on response / rectification times....

 

Sailsbury S&T were single manned on that day and the one person was medically restricted.

[Southernman46]

14 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Because lots of NR faulting depots have massive staff shortages / competence issues! A legacy of stopping all recruitment during / after Covid and people wanting out as a result of 'modernising maintenance' changes along with the usual retirements etc.

The ban on working with lookouts has also had a big effect on response / rectification times....

Sailsbury S&T were single manned on that day and the one person was medically restricted.

Cheers,

Explains a lot.

 

"Because lots of NR faulting depots have massive staff shortages / competence issues!"

 

One of the reasons I got out - being asked to squeeze the pips and also being TOLD to put un-experienced graduates into Assistant TSM posts - Nah - over my dead body.

[Dunsignalling]

There are also practical reasons why a late running 60mph freight train might be given the road over a (less late) 80/90 mph passenger unit. The most obvious is that a stopped freight will take at least five miles to get back up to pace, whereas a train formed of Class 159s can get up to 85mph in no more than two. There will also be a (possibly on-time) passenger train from Cardiff to Portsmouth, hard on the heels of the freight working, which would cop a load of delay if the latter were halted. 

 

Also, (sometimes not considered), the freight, once past, will normally keep on going whereas, between Salisbury and Basingstoke, a SWR service will make several stops, so won't be travelling at line speed much of the time. 

 

It may well be that following the slower train won't actually have much impact because, by the time the driver of the 159 starts to get yellow signals, the train is already approaching its next station stop, during which the freight will gain back some headway. 

 

I've more than once observed a container train ex-Southampton getting priority over an up Exeter train I'm riding on at Battledown, simply because stopping it would stack up any following services until my train completed its Basingstoke stop. Letting the freight get away towards Reading will put a few more minutes delay into my train, but may avoid greater disruption to other services.

 

Minimum Accumulated Delay, or the gentle art of regulating.

 

John

Edited January 27 by Dunsignalling

[Oldddudders]

It is a sobering thought that while in BR days the freight might have been held for the passenger to precede, it was in BR days that the freight business dwindled and went by road.....

[Southernman46]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

There are also practical reasons why a late running 60mph freight train might be given the road over a (less late) 80/90 mph passenger unit. The most obvious is that a stopped freight will take at least five miles to get back up to pace, whereas a train formed of Class 159s can get up to 85mph in no more than two. There will also be a (possibly on-time) passenger train from Cardiff to Portsmouth, hard on the heels of the freight working, which would cop a load of delay if the latter were halted. 

 

Also, (sometimes not considered), the freight, once past, will normally keep on going whereas, between Salisbury and Basingstoke, a SWR service will make several stops, so won't be travelling at line speed much of the time. 

 

It may well be that following the slower train won't actually have much impact because, by the time the driver of the 159 starts to get yellow signals, the train is already approaching its next station stop, during which the freight will gain back some headway. 

 

I've more than once observed a container train ex-Southampton getting priority over an up Exeter train I'm riding on at Battledown, simply because stopping it would stack up any following services until my train completed its Basingstoke stop. Letting the freight get away towards Reading will put a few more minutes delay into my train, but may avoid greater disruption to other services.

 

Minimum Accumulated Delay, or the gentle art of regulating.

 

John

From my original post :

Already bumping this thing's tail lamp and 9 minutes late not even half way to Andover .........................

Additionally :

and 1L28 continued to push 6O02 all the way to Basing where it finally got away on the UF due to 1L28 being further delayed by a cross-country service being routed over Basing Junction in front of it. 6O02 was able to reach Winchfield before being turned onto the US such was the delay to 1L28 by then. it should never have been put out in front at Salisbury - there were no ex-Westbury services behind it and an extra 8 minutes on its already 90+ delay would have been nothing. 1L28 got destroyed by simple bad regulation. We can observe all of this in real-time whilst sitting on the delayed trains nowadays !

 

[Southernman46]

More NR instigated chaos this morning (and subsequently all day) with 2L10 apparently DERAILING one bogie after reportedly hitting PW equipment left over from this weekend's 52-hour possession on the Up Fast at Walton on Thames - train was upright and in the platform when my Down train went past v.early this AM. Needless to say it is 16:30 and they still haven't recovered the situation and I'm now having to take a magical mystery tour via Reading and the Elizabeth Line to Custom House because there are NO trains beyond Basingstoke to Waterloo - as a former PW Engineer for that area I am to say the least, disappointed and quite honestly don't have the words to sum up the incompetence of people tasked with looking after the Safety of the Line or the lack of service recovery. Mind - it wouldn't surprise me and I kind of hope the recovery delay is due to the RIAB getting involved with the view to asking some very searching questions of the perpetrators.

SWR must be heartily weary of dealing with NR's mess .......................

 

That's without the small matter that it could well have been my train that was involved ................ yet another near-miss after Hook last year ........................ 😬

Edited March 4 by Southernman46

[4630]

It's no consolation I know for those caught up in the aftermath, but it's fortunate for all those onboard 2L10 that it was only one bogie and not something more severe.

 

No doubt questions will be asked and 'lessons learned' again.

[Mike_Walker]

Especially as I understand it was doing around 90 when it hit the obstruction.  Luck to have not been worse, seems the conductor rail acted a bity like a check rail and kept in line.

[Southernman46]

As I've often bored everyone before said in my many many posts in this and other Wessex related threads - NR are riding their luck in Wessex with bankslips, trees and this latest type of thing, etc, etc - they've got lucky YET AGAIN with a high-speed derailment that probably didn't get messy as there was no intervening S&C and the adjacent platform may have "helped" and as MW said above the conductor "check" rail effect - (I understand 100+ insulators destroyed - small price to pay) BUT It is only a matter of time and probability before there is a serious incident in this area...............................

 

However, I hope the result this time won't be like the Western Route with the Route Director washing their hands resigning and someone from the DLR being employed as their replacement to "fix" it with soundbites 🙄

Edited March 4 by Southernman46

[Northmoor]

It's not affected me as I didn't go into the office today (and could have gone via Ascot in any case) but I agree the lack of recovery isn't impressive.  Alton-Waterloo services have been diverted via Ascot all day, Portsmouth Direct Line services via Effingham Junction - both of which are pretty sensible - but why are so many Eastbound Class 1s being stopped at Basingstoke and not continuing to at least Woking, or even on via Chertsey (as a lot did only two weekends ago when Wimbledon was blocked)?  The Weybridge service has continued (although some are now terminating at Virginia Water) so it's not as if the power is off in the area.  I know the line through Staines is pretty busy already but one Exeter and one Weymouth an hour would have been a great help to many.  I just saw that one was running and it was 5 instead of 10-car.  That'll be nice for everyone......

 

As for the Basingstoke locals, why have they been abandoned altogether and not at least shuttle to and from Woking?  There is a lot of local traffic to/from these stations - I have seen ten people get off a morning peak train at Brookwood - which has been written off for the day.  Since they were installed about five years ago, the EMU sidings at Woking are barely ever occupied.  From this can we infer that no drivers sign on at Woking so that element of flexibility to restart services, is lost?  But if there are no trains running to Woking from either direction, how do crews get to Basingstoke to start any services from there either?

[Northmoor]

27 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

As I've often bored everyone before said in my many many posts in this and other Wessex related threads - NR are riding their luck in Wessex with bankslips, trees and this latest type of thing, etc, etc - they've got lucky YET AGAIN with a high-speed derailment that probably didn't get messy as there was no intervening S&C and the adjacent platform may have "helped"

As it was on the Up Fast the platform wouldn't have affected things today.  I wouldn't want to collide with the high road bridge at Weybridge at 90.

[90136]

I need to be very careful with what I do and do not say, but having been on site since around 0800, I can confirm RAIB did not finish their investigation until nearly 1600.  Only then were the BRUFF team allowed to commence operations to get the axle back on track. 

Only the leading axle was derailed. 
The Con rail was displaced due to the wheel riding the sleeper ends, from the point of derailment to the point of impact with the ramp end of the Con, the unit was not drifting toward the Up Slow, it was following the curve. The initial displacement is a result of that initial impact. 
 

I cannot say what was hit, but I can say it wasn’t equipment, nor was it NR. 
 

Regarding recovery of the asset, there just isn’t the staff around to react anymore. Very few are on days, certainly not enough to cover what is needed.