Horsetan Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 It is rather good eh!!..... Whoever sat there and drew it all out must have had bloodshot eyes when he finally finished it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 That is a superb illustration B) Need good drawings to make your parts like this 4F springs Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixteen 12by 10s Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Is this of any use to you PM?? http://homepage.ntlw...r%20Section.jpg JB. Hi strange that, i have this print framed and hanging on the wall, printed by "The locomotive publishing co ltd". i also have one of an LMS standard compound, lovely print, but are they a good modelling reference drawing?. Gary Edit Just found the website that this drawing is posted on, it also has a GA drawing and lots of detail drawings, invaluble. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.fibbens/Drawings/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkmouse Posted December 19, 2010 Author Share Posted December 19, 2010 Right, finally! (Sorry it's taken so long!) I've comenced my build with the motion bracket, with the intention that i'd get the inside valve gear out of the way first. My first observation is that I can't see any notes with regards to what size the holes in the brackets should be opened up to? Currently I've just opened these out slightly more than the etched holes (0.45mm) for the 2 brackets on the back of the motion bracket and (0.8) for the 3 on the front. Did you do something similar and any idea what the holes needed to opened out to? (I appreciate it's been a while now!) Okay here we go. Hole size in the brackets is critical, but not in the way that you think. They can be just about any size that doesn't take to much meat from the brackets, but, they must be a good tight working fit with the dimension of wire that you use as the bearing shafts, (think axle bearing tolerances). I found this out after my first attempt at assembly, when everything wobbled all over the place and jammed up. With this all being so tight inside spacewise you need to be very exact. After my first attempt I bought a selection of wire and tubing from Eileens and broached all the holes out to be a good fit with the next size up wire/tube. You also need to be very exact with all the spacers between the various rods and brackets. The instructions don't give you exact dimensions for all these and I found the best way was with several test assemblies to work out the orientation of all the parts, using a bit of maths and micrometer measurements to work out where each bit should sit in relation to all the others, then using the micrometer to transfer those dimensions to the new tube I'd bought. The best way of cutting them I found was to blacken the tube with a Sharpie, scribe a line around the outside using the micrometer lightly, then rather than using a saw or file, get a sharp Stanley knife blade and roll the tube along the bench several times with the blade resting in the scribed line, increasing the pressure gradually until the blade cuts through. A quick swipe with a fine diamond file to clean up the burrs, and you're sorted. This whole process will likely take a few attempts to get everything siting where it should, and a big pile of cut tube that doesn't quite fit. My next comment (s) are again about the 5 brackets that get sanwiched between the motion bracket. I've found that the 5 brackets need quite a bit of fettling to fit through the slots in the front and back half etched pieces of the motion bracket. Likewise I've found the backs of the brackets need quite a bit of thining to allow the whole assembly to be sandwiched together. Did you also find this and how did you get round it? I've gone back and re-read Geoff Haynes article in MRJ 164 and note that he also had the same issue, to overcome it he actually snipped off the tabs on some of the brackets. I'm reluctant to do this as I feel it will weaken the structal integrity of the brackets. Ah yes, fiddly b*****s aren't they! I gave up on the instructions. Tack solder a bracket to a bit of wire that fits tightly in the hole, making sure it's square, then slide the other bracket(s) onto the wire. Offer up to the appropriate (unassembled) side of the MSB etch,slot each bracket into its slot, and tack the first bracket in, again checking for square. This makes it easier to solder the other bits in true and parallel. Check for square again, then tack the wire to the other brackets. This will hold everything together later. Do t'other side in the same manner. Next, use a large, fine cut file to reduce the depth of the flanges on the rear as much as you think you can get away with, and using small files, clean up all the solder that wicked out around the outside. Test fit each side in turn with the centre MSB etch, you may need to file a little more from one or both to get a good fit . Repeat with the other side, then offer up the whole thing, and hopefully, it should be a nice snug fit, if not, remove and file some more. When you assemble the whole thing, the thing you need to be careful of is not disturbing the brackets you fitted to the outside edges. This is where the wire helps. Work slowly, going from one side to the other, allowing the piece to cool between joints, until the whole MSB is soldered up. The wire will hopefully stop anything moving if you dwell too long on a joint. Finally, carefully snip the wire into bits so you only need to undo one tack joint at a time, remove the wire and all should be good to go. Off for lunch now, but here's a gratuitous close up: edit: well there would be, but for some reason image uploading isn't working ATM Back later for part two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibateg Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 I havn't read all the way through the thread, so you might already have these, I found them very useful when building my 7mm 4F:- http://www.44422.co.uk/ http://www.4123.co.uk/ Regards Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 Al, Thanks for your latest posting, once again extremely useful! With much help from your notes I have assembled the con rods, the rocking links, the slide bar assembly (like you mentioned, more fiddly than expected!), the balance weights and parts of the MSB. This all took bit longer than expected, but working through it slowly and methodically it's been very enjoyable, if a little painful on the fingertips! On the subject of the MSB I was considering the same approach as what you've posted today, so many thanks for the write up on your method! I've assembled some of the brackets and trimmed all the components to size, so half way there! The slide bar assemblies were yesterdays pet project and both were finished bar final cleaning up in the early hours of today. I followed your write up closely for these, however I did build them slightly differently. My preferred method was to fold up the slide bar etch (with the fold lines on the outside, when i folded the first with these on the inside it became too small to fit through the etch), fettle the brass castings to fit (driling out to 1.5/1.6mm at 0.1 incrementals), I then pushed the etched cover over the slide bars to the brass casting and soldered the whole assembly. I then added the overlays (trimmed to length) to maintain shape. I used the cast cross head to keep the whole assembly rigid for initial cleaning up, I have also kept the internal webs atached until they start to get in the way during trial assembly. I'm considering making up a representaton of the lubricating pots to add to the slide bars, mostlikely out of some telescopic brass tube. I'll try and attach a photo or 2 to illustrate progress although I haven't had too much success of uploading photo's in the past. If sucessful I may even restart my WB thread from the old forum! One of my current issues and one of the main reasons for why I haven't started any of the main assembly is down to how to split the loco for final assembly, I'd quite like to have the boiler as a separate item, together with a keeper plate to allow all the wheels and motion to be taken apart for painting and maintanence. This will most likely have to wait until a few more issues are resolved on the 3f too! JB, thanks for the link, i'd seen it before but had forgotten about it! Likewise thankyou Tony, I am aware of both links but its always useful to have the links provided. As 44422 is one of the 4f's I plan to model (together with 44560), it's very useful to identify the type of internal balance weights and coupling rods. I'm should the photo's are bound to answer many future questions too! Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 Right, lets give this a go! Here's a pic (assuming i've attached it correctly) that shows all the components built to date! I've also included a close up of one of the completed slide bar assemblies, together with fiberglass fur! Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkmouse Posted December 19, 2010 Author Share Posted December 19, 2010 Looking good Paul, an excellent job so far. I also have no problems with you continuing to post on this thread, it keeps all the 4F stuff together, and we can bounce things off each other that might otherwise get lost in separate threads, so hopefully more helpful to others building the kit. Oh and I agree about the lubricator pots, they really need to be there. More later, just making supper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 Al, i've got a bit of a habit of being sporadic in my modelling together with a reputation of not finishing things, so at least by adding posts on here i'm not going to be pressured as much as if it's my own thread! At least that's my theory! Probably wold be useful to keep the builds together though, i'm definitely benefitting from your postings! One thing I would add to my postings is that i've started with the inside motion with the idea that if I do balls it all up, at least I can buy a replacement as a separate etch! I do like to do all the fiddly bits though! Looking forward to your next instalment! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkmouse Posted December 19, 2010 Author Share Posted December 19, 2010 I havn't read all the way through the thread, so you might already have these... Thanks Tony, I'd seen the 44422 site, but not the other, more food for the muse. Al, Thanks for your latest posting, once again extremely useful! With much help from your notes I have assembled the con rods, the rocking links, the slide bar assembly (like you mentioned, more fiddly than expected!), the balance weights and parts of the MSB. This all took bit longer than expected, but working through it slowly and methodically it's been very enjoyable, if a little painful on the fingertips! Glad to be of help. As you say, it really does pay to be methodical and build up each set of components together. I know what you mean about the fingertips! I followed your write up closely for these, however I did build them slightly differently. ... That sounds like a much better method than mine. One of my current issues and one of the main reasons for why I haven't started any of the main assembly is down to how to split the loco for final assembly, I'd quite like to have the boiler as a separate item, together with a keeper plate to allow all the wheels and motion to be taken apart for painting and maintanence. Looking at mine, I'm really not sure how easy it would be to keep the boiler and footplate separate. You could possibly get a screw up through the cylinder/valve spacer etch to secure the front, but I really can't see how you could hide a fixing for the firebox end. But then again, without fixing the footplate to the chassis, it's difficult to work out how to fit the lubricator drive gear. Hmm. With hindsight, another thing comes to mind. For the time being don't fit the front axle bearings, just attach the middle one. Once you have the gear up and running, then you can work out how much you need to thin the front bearings to get them in, rather than as I did it, taking them out, filing, and refitting several times. I know you're a bit off that stage yet, but I just thought I'd mention it well in advance. Right, lets try the gratuitous pic again: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 Glad to be of help. As you say, it really does pay to be methodical and build up each set of components together. I know what you mean about the fingertips! That sounds like a much better method than mine. Looking at mine, I'm really not sure how easy it would be to keep the boiler and footplate separate. You could possibly get a screw up through the cylinder/valve spacer etch to secure the front, but I really can't see how you could hide a fixing for the firebox end. But then again, without fixing the footplate to the chassis, it's difficult to work out how to fit the lubricator drive gear. Hmm. With hindsight, another thing comes to mind. For the time being don't fit the front axle bearings, just attach the middle one. Once you have the gear up and running, then you can work out how much you need to thin the front bearings to get them in, rather than as I did it, taking them out, filing, and refitting several times. I know you're a bit off that stage yet, but I just thought I'd mention it well in advance. Thnaks once again PM! Excellent stuff! Well the slide bars were built after you'd done all the problem solving on my behalf! I would have found out the hard way otherwise! B) Yeah, that's what i'm thinking for the smokebox end. I'm also considering tender drive so that I have plenty of space to similarly attach the firebox end. I should be able to pack the boiler with lead then as well as running the pick ups for the front axle through the boiler so they don't get in the way of the valve gear! Thanks for the tip on the horn guides! Only problem is that i'll be using the Avonside jig so will need to attach the horn guides for setting up the chassis. What I think i'll do is trial assemble it with the frame spacers in place but not soldered! Worth bearing in mind though! Nice pic of the valve gear by the way. Looks like even paintings going to be fun! Wouldn't want to get paint in the wrong places and risk gumming it up! Looking at the supplied BM photo's the inside valve gear was black so I may just get away with chem blacking it. Next job for me is to finish off the MSB I think. i'm leaving the more delicate parts of the valve gear till last (such as the 2 laminate rocking link parts) Keep up the good work PM! Oh just a thought, it looks like I may be making a trip to Portsmouth for the finescale south show with the Clutton crew, do you plan on making the trip by any chance? Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkmouse Posted December 20, 2010 Author Share Posted December 20, 2010 Not sure if I'll make Portsmouth ATM as money's a bit tight, but you never know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 I'm in the same financial boat as you i'm affraid Al, I will be making a few appearences in 2011 though so I'm sure we can arrange a possible meet at some point, hopefully I will have made a bit more visable progress by then too! Other show's that i'm due to be exhibiting at that come to mind are Ally Pally, RMWeb South West, RailEX and Scaleforum. I also plan on making the usual visits to Scalefour North and Rail Wells so i'm sure one of those will suit! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike G Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 i'm due to be exhibiting at that come to mind are Ally Pally, RMWeb South West, RailEX and Scaleforum. I also plan on making the usual visits to Scalefour North and Rail Wells so i'm sure one of those will suit! Ermm, have I missed something? When and where please? Sorry to interupt... PM, full of admiration for the level of skill demonstrated in this build. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 Ermm, have I missed something? When and where please? Sorry to interupt... PM, full of admiration for the level of skill demonstrated in this build. Mike I suspect this might be the answer: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/14157-taunton-members-day-sunday-17th-april-2011/ Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 I suspect this might be the answer: http://www.rmweb.co....7th-april-2011/ Clutton is appearing at the Southampton Show My link on 29 & 30 Jan; along with two other P4 layouts (one of which is mine!) and two EM layouts. Is this what was meant? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkmouse Posted December 20, 2010 Author Share Posted December 20, 2010 Sorry to interupt... No worries, I don't think any of my threads has ever stayed strictly on topic for more than about half a dozen posts! Ooh, Mark's here and he hasn't nagged me about Jerusalem Works yet... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 Sorry chaps I was thinking out aloud! With both Pinkmouse and the beginings of my build appearing on the same thread I was wondering about a possible chance to catch up in person. Likewise, anybody else who's attempting/considering one of these kits or just wants to know a bit more then please make yourself known if you're going to any of the shows that i've listed as attending (a bit of prior notice maybe neccessary just to ensure i'm prepped! ) Thanks both Adam and Mark for the links. Well as Christmas pressie shopping was a disaster this evening, time to resort to some modelling. Hopefully this won't go the same way! Burnt fingers and bad language here I come! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 Ooh, Mark's here and he hasn't nagged me about Jerusalem Works yet... .............it can be arranged!!! Trying to finish my Brassmasters black 5 is a job for the holiday season; perhaps I could bring it east with a jinty (or two) and another class 4F, all in LMS and they could have a try on Jerusalem Works?!?!?! Actually I am enjoying the saga of the inside motion in particular. I have always thought it was a job for masochists.....................I am not sure your thread has changed my view either! Does look good when it is going though, I grant you that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Mark, If you fancy bringing any/all of those to Pompey with you i'd sure be interested! Already looking forward to the curry! B) Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 .... curry! B) Curry. Particularly if it's veg. :P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I've been re-reading this thread as I've just bought a Brassmasters 4F kit and I'm sure the thread is going to be a great resource for the task in front of me. However, I was a bit alarmed to discover that everything stopped last December and Al hasn't been online for a couple of months. Hope nothing untoward has happened. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHertsGER Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I've been re-reading this thread as I've just bought a Brassmasters 4F kit and I'm sure the thread is going to be a great resource for the task in front of me. However, I was a bit alarmed to discover that everything stopped last December and Al hasn't been online for a couple of months. Hope nothing untoward has happened. Nick Somewhat late to the party,so to speak, perhaps, but nevertheless appreciative of all the insight, knowledge and experience backed up by some seriously intimidating (but not totally so..read on..) modelling! Well done! However, you have inspired some form of lunacy in your correspondent as I have now formed the idea of doing just this inside a J15. (Have you seen the amount of space under the boiler? Something has to go in there!) Actually I am planning four, but I could get locked up for that... I have drawing after drawing courtesy of the GERS (anyone interested in the GER should join) but alas my knowledge remains two dimensional. Has anyone ever poked a camera between the frames of 7564 (or any other J15) and come away a) without getting their face slapped and b) some pictures of what it all looks like - particularly the slide assembly and valve arrangement, which is vastly different to the 4f from what I can tell from the drawings. Anyone else mucking about under J15s and need some insight I can point you to the drawings - they are downloadable, so instant gratification for the curious! Best, Marcus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I too have a 4F to build (in 00 so I must be barking) and have found this thread invaluable. Sorry that there hasn't been any posts of the finished articles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I picked one up last week.... ....no problems with you continuing to post on this thread, it keeps all the 4F stuff together, and we can bounce things off each other .... Reminds me of a 4F build-off! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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