LNWR London Road - Locomotives and rolling stock

[Coal Tank]

Mmmmmm wine 

[Jol Wilkinson]

The latest addition to the reference library.

 

 

An excellent new book from Peter Davis and jointly published with the LNWR Society.

 

My next loco builds are the LRM 2-4-0 Jumbo and Teutonic kits . The book has contains a rare photo of the Teutonic class "Adriatic"  (Jeannie Deans was the most photographed), taken in 1907 shortly before scrapping, so that will be very useful. There is also a detailed line drawing of Adriatic in 1895/7 condition when she ran in the Railway Race to the North.

[Compound2632]

Will you be building your Teutonic in original condition or with the shortened front frames? To my mind, they look leaner and faster in original condition.

 

BTW presuming you've seen:

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Compound2632

[t-b-g]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Will you be building your Teutonic in original condition or with the shortened front frames? To my mind, they look leaner and faster in original condition.

 

BTW presuming you've seen:

 

 

 

 

That can't be genuine. The experts on here tell me that no locos could ever possibly be clean when they haul a train with all that soot and smoke around.

 

I hadn't seen it before so thanks for posting.

 

Now a question for the LNWR experts (I just dabble a bit in such things for Narrow Road). On the goods going the other way, the back of the brake van appears to be two different colours. This isn't something I am aware of and I haven't seen any modelled like that. Is it a trick of the light, dirt, or a livery that I don't know about?

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

That can't be genuine. The experts on here tell me that no locos could ever possibly be clean when they haul a train with all that soot and smoke around.

 

It is a set-up - the film title claims it's the Irish Mail but the carriages are a Euston-Watford set of 50 ft non-corridors, nearly new in the year the film was made, 1898, and the train is on the up slow - it's at Bushey of course. Assuming the film is running at true speed, checking the OS 25 in map for the positions of the signals, it's doing about 40 mph. This may well be the first example of film of a moving train taken from another - presumably the camera is on an OCT or similar passenger-rated open vehicle. 

 

Personally, I'm delighted that they forgot to stop traffic on the down slow - that northbound empty mineral train is a delight. I've taken a close look at it here:

 

18 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

Now a question for the LNWR experts (I just dabble a bit in such things for Narrow Road). On the goods going the other way, the back of the brake van appears to be two different colours. This isn't something I am aware of and I haven't seen any modelled like that. Is it a trick of the light, dirt, or a livery that I don't know about?

 

Sandy @Penlan suggested that this might be a ballast brake (these had open-ended verandahs) converted to a standard goods brake but I'm very sceptical since as far as I can work out from LNWR Wagons Vol. 3, such conversions were from ordinary brake to ballast brake. I suspect a repair. It does answer a question that had been bugging me since I built the LRM kit for a D16 brake - those windows are glazed. 

 

There was a two-tone livery used on some outside-framed brake vans and covered goods wagons in the 1890s/1900s, the best photo I can link to is this one of Birmingham Windsor Street goods station.

 

For Bushey in the late 1890s, see also: https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-railway-traffic-on-the-lnwr-1897-online.

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Stephen,

(I hope I've got that right).

I prefer the short front end and that is how Adriatic was in 1907 (the date I have loosely set for London Road). The kit caters for both versions.

 

I only managed to assemble the 2000g tender internal "chassis" before the house move and then my detached retina so no more progress yet. The photo shows a later type of tender axle box so I'll have to check the ones in the kit to see if it has the same as for the LRM 2500g tender which are the ones I shall need, as opposed to the earlier type.

 

Tony,

the video was posed so the loco and carriages were probably very newly cleaned. Mind you the LNWR did keep their locos clean, as in service period photos show. Perhaps the "experts on here" weren't about at the time to give an objective assessment.

 

I also noticed the two tone looking paint on the brake van but don't know of any reference to it in the books.  A conversion from a ballast brake is a possibility as Sandy (Penlan) suggests. The two tone livery Stephen refers to was, IIRC, light grey planking with dark grey for the framing.  I'll have to check in LNWR liveries.

 

Jol

Edited December 26, 2020 by Jol Wilkinson
Amended text

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Stephen,

(I hope I've got that right).

I prefer the short front end and that is how Adriatic was in 1907 (the date I have loosely set for London Road). The kit caters for both versions.

 

I only managed to assemble the 2000g tender internal "chassis" before the house move and then my detached retina so no more progress yet. The photo shows a later type of tender axle box so I'll have to check the ones in the kit to see if it has the same as for the LRM 2500g tender which are the ones I shall need, as opposed to the earlier type.

 

Tony,

the video was posed so the loco was probably very newly cleaned. Mind you the LNWR did keep their locos clean, as in service period photos show. Perhaps the "experts on here" weren't about at the time to give an objective assessment.

 

I also noticed the two tone looking paint on the brake van but don't know of any reference to it in the books. Could it be the result of a repair/local repaint? The two tone livery Stephen refers to was, IIRC, grey planking with a darker grey for the framing.  I'll have to check in LNWR liveries.

 

Jol

 

I know some railways of that period painted the ends of their brake vans red and it made me wonder if some LNWR ones were perhaps red on just the top half. It somehow looks too neat and deliberate to me to be a repair.

 

Even with all the information we have gathered over the intervening 100 plus years, I am sure there are still things to be learned and discovered about those earlier times.

 

Tony

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I know some railways of that period painted the ends of their brake vans red and it made me wonder if some LNWR ones were perhaps red on just the top half. It somehow looks too neat and deliberate to me to be a repair.

 

Even with all the information we have gathered over the intervening 100 plus years, I am sure there are still things to be learned and discovered about those earlier times.

 

Tony

 

This is a photo of one of Penlan's ballast brakes, showing ref ends. I don't think the regular LNWR brake van ends were ever painted red but I'll have to go up to the workshop to get the books out.

 

 

[billbedford]

The red ends of brake vans was originally a BoT requirement. It was rescinded after continuous automatic brakes became compulsory on passenger trains. 

Edited December 26, 2020 by billbedford

[t-b-g]

39 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

This is a photo of one of Penlan's ballast brakes, showing ref ends. I don't think the regular LNWR brake van ends were ever painted red but I'll have to go up to the workshop to get the books out.

 

 

 

It certainly adds a nice splash of colour!

[t-b-g]

39 minutes ago, billbedford said:

The red ends of brake vans was originally a BoT requirement. It was rescinded after continuous automatic brakes became compulsory on passenger trains. 

 

Thanks Bill. I didn't know it was a requirement but that is probably because it was before my modelling period so I have never investigated it.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Will you be building your Teutonic in original condition or with the shortened front frames? To my mind, they look leaner and faster in original condition.

 

BTW presuming you've seen:

 

 

 

Whilst this film was taken many years before I was born, my earliest memories of train spotting was from the bank on the right hand side, just after Bushey & Oxhey's mainline platforms, my dad worked an allotment which adjoined the embankment. Our house backed on to the allotments. Many hours were spent playing on these embankments, the only goods traffic by then was coal for the local gas works in lower High Street Watford

 

A special treat was to be taken up Oxhey Ave, across Watford Heath and down the alley which ran between the two bridges to watch the trains pass at the troughs . if we were very lucky a train would take up water.

 

A great bit of film, starting at Bushes, The pub (called the Arches) was knocked down many years ago as was  one  one of the two outside the station

[Coal Tank]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The latest addition to the reference library.

 

 

An excellent new book from Peter Davis and jointly published with the LNWR Society.

 

My next loco builds are the LRM 2-4-0 Jumbo and Teutonic kits . The book has contains a rare photo of the Teutonic class "Adriatic"  (Jeannie Deans was the most photographed), taken in 1907 shortly before scrapping, so that will be very useful. There is also a detailed line drawing of Adriatic in 1895/7 condition when she ran in the Railway Race to the North.

Hi Jol 

  I hope that you show the build on here I have two jumbo being made at the moment, one not far from being finished. The Teutonic on the list aswell. I have an 80-1 gearbox coming for the Jumbo. Im not quite sure how the steps on the loco go together at the moment. So if you have any close up pics it would be handy 

Regards 

   John 

[Coal Tank]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Will you be building your Teutonic in original condition or with the shortened front frames? To my mind, they look leaner and faster in original condition.

 

BTW presuming you've seen:

 

 

 

Fabulous pie e of film

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, billbedford said:

The red ends of brake vans was originally a BoT requirement. It was rescinded after continuous automatic brakes became compulsory on passenger trains. 

 

If so, it was a requirement with which the Midland did not comply, either for goods or passenger brakes, the ends of which were always goods wagon grey and crimson lake, respectively. But I'm aware that there plenty of instances of companies adopting red ends for goods and passenger brakes. So I'm a bit mystified.

[Jol Wilkinson]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

If so, it was a requirement with which the Midland did not comply, either for goods or passenger brakes, the ends of which were always goods wagon grey and crimson lake, respectively. But I'm aware that there plenty of instances of companies adopting red ends for goods and passenger brakes. So I'm a bit mystified.

Likewise, I can find no reference to red ends on LNWR brake vans, other than the ballast brakes, which were "painted in the normal grey livery but with vermillion red ends" (page 143 of LNWR Liveries, published by the HMRS). The four LNWR wagons books I have go into no further details on livery, referring the reader to the HMRS publication.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The four LNWR wagons books I have go into no further details on livery, referring the reader to the HMRS publication.

 

There is no railway but the Premier Line and Ted Talbot is its prophet.

[PenrithBeacon]

7 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The latest addition to the reference library.

 

 

An excellent new book from Peter Davis and jointly published with the LNWR Society.

 

My next loco builds are the LRM 2-4-0 Jumbo and Teutonic kits . The book has contains a rare photo of the Teutonic class "Adriatic"  (Jeannie Deans was the most photographed), taken in 1907 shortly before scrapping, so that will be very useful. There is also a detailed line drawing of Adriatic in 1895/7 condition when she ran in the Railway Race to the North.

Sold by Bill Hudson at £30!

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There is no railway but the Premier Line and Ted Talbot is its prophet.

Having been a member of the LNWRS for many years and an Office/Committee member for a time, I had first hand experience of "working" with Ted Talbot. 

 

Even his position as the pre-eminent expert on locomotives has declined a little  lately. His books on LNWR locos are good but if you want more in depth information, the later publications on the Coal Tanks and the new book on the Three-Cylinder Compounds provide much more detail of use to modellers.

 

In the same way Jenkinson's book on LNWR carriages is quite good but Philip Millard's books on the Diagrams that DJ largely ignored, are a great asset.

 

 

 

[Brassey]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

There is no railway but the Premier Line and Ted Talbot is its prophet.

 

There are other notable authorities on the LNWR such as Philip Millard, Richard Foster etc.

 

Jol, Sorry to hear about all your problems and I trust that 2021 will treat you much better. 

 

I am interested in the 6 wheel break van under pinings.  Have you gone for a cleminson arrangement or a floating centre axle a la Bill Bedford, or something else.

 

All the best

 

Regards

 

Peter

 

PS: I too am in the process of building an LRM small jumbo/Whitworth having started with the 1800 gal tender.  Luckily the compounds had mostly gone by the time of my line

 

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Brassey
PS

[Brassey]

I had presumed that the ends of "Permanent Way" breaks were red because they spent a lot of time stationery on the line whilst the road was being repaired and thus they needed to be more visible to oncoming traffic.  I have also assumed that a Ballast train, such as the one which ran from Llandovery to Abergavenny via Craven Arms, could have included a standard break van.

[Jol Wilkinson]

11 hours ago, Brassey said:

 

There are other notable authorities on the LNWR such as Philip Millard, Richard Foster etc.

 

Jol, Sorry to hear about all your problems and I trust that 2021 will treat you much better. 

 

I am interested in the 6 wheel break van under pinings.  Have you gone for a cleminson arrangement or a floating centre axle a la Bill Bedford, or something else.

 

All the best

 

Regards

 

Peter

 

PS: I too am in the process of building an LRM small jumbo/Whitworth having started with the 1800 gal tender.  Luckily the compounds had mostly gone by the time of my line

 

 

Hello Peter,

 

yes, Philip Millard is the great authority on LNWR carriages and Richard Foster on signalling. He was a great help in advising on the track plan and signalling for the extension section of London Road. LNWR enthusiasts are fortunate in having a worthwhile Society with active supporters running the Study Centre at Kenilworth.

 

The 20T six wheel brake van underframe design was specified by John Redrup of LRM. It has three "rocking" w-irons, two of which (centre and one end) are connected by wire beams, based on Paul Tasker's Prickly Pear Models concept. This rather poor photo of the first test etch build may give some idea. The wheelbase is 5ft + 5ft and John considers that short enough not to need sliding axles. I also experimented with a sprung w-iron design but it looked as though it would be rather fiddly to assemble. The w-irons also have fold down tabs so they can be assembled "fixed". When designing for 00, EM and P4 I have to remember that some builders may prefer a simpler rigid underframe option.

 

 

The Prickly Pear underframe idea is also used in the LRM etched w-iron system for Ratio LNWR wagons.

 

I like the Whitworth 2-4-0s, having built one some time ago which I got painted by Ian Rathbone (along with the Precursor Tank and C1 0-8-0).

 

 

 

[billbedford]

Do you put rocking axles on tenders too?

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 minutes ago, billbedford said:

Do you put rocking axles on tenders too?

The tenders I have designed all have an internal "chassis" that can have fixed bearings or hornblocks can be fitted. Again it's a question of providing options that will suit the builders needs.

 

For my own P4 models I have either built them with one fixed axle and hornblocks for the other two axles with a compensating beam, or with a fixed back axle and lightly sprung centre and front axles, so I can hang the front of the tender on the loco drag beam for more adhesive weight.

[billbedford]

Mmm thanks. 

 

I've been thinking of my own products. Since September I've offered all the printed wagons with the option of an either P4/EM or OO version. Both versions have a sprung suspension. Given that the wagons are all pre-grouping I've been a bit surprised by just how few customers have opted for the P4/EM version. 

 

I've no way of knowing how many of the OO are actually built as sprung, but it occurs to me that maybe there should be an 'easy option' of building these wagons unsprung.