Greater Glasgow - EMU and DMU information request

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

One of the things I am currently working on needs more information about this.

Most specifically - EMU and DMU types and numbers known to have carried the GG logo of Greater Glasgow.

This would only be relevant to the period when the logo was in use.

Dates would be from 1973 to 1975 but some carried the logos a bit longer than this and only lost them when repainted into the new Strathlyde livery.

Anyone know more and can help?

 

Thanks
Phil H

[Legend]

Emus with GG logos  were 303 and 311, DMUs were 101 (including refurb ones) , 107 , 116 and of course the great Swindon Ayrshire  126 units .  I’m not sure when GG began to appear . I thought 73-75 might be a bit early , I really remember them from 78 onwards, but really can’t remember when GG introduced. 

[Alex TM]

Hi Phil,

 

Try sending a PM to backwaterscotland, as it's something he knows a bit about.  Andy's not been on here in a while so if you do contact him and don't get an answer in a week or so then let me know and I'll drop him a text (or feed him more coffee as that seems to work too).

 

Regards,

 

Alex

[Scottish Modeller]

36 minutes ago, Legend said:

Emus with GG logos  were 303 and 311, DMUs were 101 (including refurb ones) , 107 , 116 and of course the great Swindon Ayrshire  126 units .  I’m not sure when GG began to appear . I thought 73-75 might be a bit early , I really remember them from 78 onwards, but really can’t remember when GG introduced. 

Hi Legend,

 

I got the dates I have from other sources and, having checked with NMS and the SRO, they are the correct dates from inception of Greater Glasgow Transportation to it's demise and being absorbed into the New Strathclyde PTA.

 

Photos are very hard to find though!

 

Thanks

Phil H

 

 

[keefer]

According to Wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strathclyde_Partnership_for_Transport

(Scroll down for article re: trains)

Greater Glasgow PTE started in 1973 and started using the GG logo. The Trans-Clyde logo came in c.1979, coinciding with the re-opened Argyle Line and general re-branding etc. Certainly on DMUs the GG was used, then GG Trans-Clyde - wiki page says GG was eventually dropped leaving Trans-Clyde until 1983 when Strathclyde Transport took over.

 

Regarding types, there was also the cl.122 bubble-cars

[Scottish Modeller]

3 minutes ago, Alex TM said:

Hi Phil,

 

Try sending a PM to backwaterscotland, as it's something he knows a bit about.  Andy's not been on here in a while so if you do contact him and don't get an answer in a week or so then let me know and I'll drop him a text (or feed him more coffee as that seems to work too).

 

Regards,

 

Alex

Hi Alex,

 

Yes - Backwaterscotland - Andy is one of my friends.

 

I will be speaking with him at St Andrews Exhibition - this weekend!

 

Thanks

Phil H

[keefer]

Reading the Wiki article, what I didnt realise was the PTE logo was on the driver's side only, the BR arrow was on the secondman's side - so in looking for pics make sure the driver's side is visible

[Gibbo675]

Hi Phil,

 

Have you tried this feature of railcar.co.uk ?

 

https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/advanced-search/?location=Glasgow&sort=date

 

It enables types of unit, locations and dates to be used in the search parameters.

 

If nothing else you can have a good look at all sorts of DMU's.

 

Gibbo.

[Scottish Modeller]

13 minutes ago, keefer said:

Reading the Wiki article, what I didnt realise was the PTE logo was on the driver's side only, the BR arrow was on the secondman's side - so in looking for pics make sure the driver's side is visible

Hi Keefer,

 

That was one thing that caught both Andy and I out the first time we tried representing this period.

 

I am familiary with all the history, the dates, the succession periods already.

 

Now need to try and get the right class/unit type and any numbers that can be confirmed as correct.

 

As others have said.

 

DMU's - Cl101, Cl122, Cl116 and still working on the DMU's and liveries carried

 

EMU's are easy compared to the DMU's! Cl303 and Cl311now working on the liveries carried.

 

Thanks

Phil H

[Scottish Modeller]

4 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Phil,

 

Have you tried this feature of railcar.co.uk ?

 

https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/advanced-search/?location=Glasgow&sort=date

 

It enables types of unit, locations and dates to be used in the search parameters.

 

If nothing else you can have a good look at all sorts of DMU's.

 

Gibbo.

Hi Gibbo,

 

That was the sratring point!

 

Still hundreds of photos to look at on it, don't know how many I can manage at one session.

 

Thanks

Phil H

[thedman]

As new 314 carried “GG Trans-Clyde”

[Legend]

Yes GG was brought in when the PTE was created in 1973 on buses . I don’t remember it appearing on trains until the Trans Clyde days which was 79, but I may be wrong .

[Ian Smeeton]

One or two from the Transclyde days

 

 

 

Taken from the old Milk/Parcels dock at Gilmour St

 

 

And at the other end of Gilmour St, another 303 doing what they do.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[keefer]

Some EMU pics on Brian Daniels' Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/sets/72157626751794496/

GG, GG Trans-Clyde and Trans-Clyde visible

GG on a rather scrappy looking unit 002: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5734727724/in/album-72157626751794496/

Unit 020 showing placement of GG and BR logos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5734728108/sizes/l

 

 

DMU  images here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/sets/72157626627223211/

I thought having only GG happened only on all-blue stock, but there's a cl.126 in b/g: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5808722743/in/album-72157626627223211/

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by keefer
Mistaken class ref.

[GordonC]

 

 

[Legend]

The GG Transclyde markings definitely came in only in 1979.  It was applied to blue/ blue grey/refurb white dmus and blue/ blue grey emus .. At Ayr exhibition on Saturday I bought a new book from Douglas Blades stand “First generation Scottish DMUs” By Colin J Howat. This gives a pretty accurate history of dmus right through to Orange and Black SPTE . Lots of great pictures , particularly of my favourite 126 Swindon units . The only thing is take most of these Amberley books, I find the colour can be over exposed . However it’s a good book and certainly tells you what you want to know about 1st gen dmus  ISBN 978 1 4456 9187 9

[Scottish Modeller]

23 minutes ago, Legend said:

The GG Transclyde markings definitely came in only in 1979.  It was applied to blue/ blue grey/refurb white dmus and blue/ blue grey emus .. At Ayr exhibition on Saturday I bought a new book from Douglas Blades stand “First generation Scottish DMUs” By Colin J Howat. This gives a pretty accurate history of dmus right through to Orange and Black SPTE . Lots of great pictures , particularly of my favourite 126 Swindon units . The only thing is take most of these Amberley books, I find the colour can be over exposed . However it’s a good book and certainly tells you what you want to know about 1st gen dmus  ISBN 978 1 4456 9187 9

Hi Legend,

 

I went to buy this book and was too late - sold out at the show.

 

Douglas said he has more copies though and either to buy direct or when I see him at the next show.

 

Thanks

Phil H

[Legend]

1 hour ago, Scottish Modeller said:

Hi Legend,

 

I went to buy this book and was too late - sold out at the show.

 

Douglas said he has more copies though and either to buy direct or when I see him at the next show.

 

Thanks

Phil H

 

Quite a good book Phil . As I said before , like a lot of Amberley publications the colours are a bit overexposed in places  but definitely still worthwhile . I don’t know if Douglas is at Renfrewshire exhibition mid Oct in Johnston.  I didn’t know you could buy direct from Douglas. 

[keefer]

have previously looked at the old 'Evening Times' issues at Google Newspapers.

Having seen it mentioned that the new 'Trans-Clyde' network inc. Argyle Line was launched in November 1979, I had a look to see what was there.

I haven't had time to look through everything but Thursday, 1st. November has some articles over a few pages:

 

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2mus-XyGPC0C&dat=19791101&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

 

(articles start on p.4)

[Scottish-Exile]

 

DMU's 107 444 (PTE) & 116 396 (Trans Clyde) Ayr Townhead, 6th April 85.

 

Just the TransClyde legend, the symbol having been dropped (assuming it was there to begin with.

[keefer]

quite possible that the cl.116 had just 'GG' at first (depending on allocation etc)

'Trans-Clyde' lasted longer as it became a buzzword for SPTE for the whole revamped transport system from 1979.

Remember, the whole point was an integrated system of bus, train and (don't forget) the completely revamped Underground.

 

HM The Queen officially opening the new Underground in November 1979

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, keefer said:

quite possible that the cl.116 had just 'GG' at first (depending on allocation etc)

'Trans-Clyde' lasted longer as it became a buzzword for SPTE for the whole revamped transport system from 1979.

Remember, the whole point was an integrated system of bus, train and (don't forget) the completely revamped Underground.

 

HM The Queen officially opening the new Underground in November 1979

The cab even looks cramped for HM!

[Scottish Modeller]

20 hours ago, Legend said:

 

Quite a good book Phil . As I said before , like a lot of Amberley publications the colours are a bit overexposed in places  but definitely still worthwhile . I don’t know if Douglas is at Renfrewshire exhibition mid Oct in Johnston.  I didn’t know you could buy direct from Douglas. 

Hi Legend,

 

He uses Abe Books as his direct sales handler.

 

Thanks

Phil H

[EddieK]

To add to this discussion, see this

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-107/refurbishment

GG but no TransClyde in October 1978.

 

To divert on a tangent, I was intrigued to see a refurbished unit in Blue/Grey as early as October 1978.

From the start of the DMU refurb scheme around 1975, the system was supposedly 

Blue livery = DMU classes not worthy of refurb, or vehicles of classes that *were* worthy that had not yet been through the scheme

White with blue stripe = refurbished vehicles

Blue/Grey = Cross Country and Inter City classes whether unrefurbished or refurbished. 

 

My understanding was that this changed from around Spring 1979 so that refurbished vehicles and unrefurbished vehicles of classes where sisters were refurbished (eg Class 101) were Blue/Grey. I have records of "blue stripe" repaints dating from 1979.

 

The Class 107s seem to have leapfrogged the blue stripe livery and started to gain blue/grey October 1978 as above.

 

*My theory* on this (unsubstantiated) is that Greater Glasgow PTE were just about to get shiny new Class 314 EMUs in Blue/Grey from 1979 (ish) and so decided to adopt this livery on key fleets in their area such as 303, 311 and the aforementioned 107s. This also spread to 126s and 116s. I have no evidence about 101 refurbs changing to this livery for Glasgow area units ahead of other fleets. Perhaps the actions of Glasgow led to the wider adoption of Blue/Grey across the whole network?

[luckymucklebackit]

There was one class 303 that received a "Clyderail" logo on the centre car, I am sure it was 303012 which was the first one to receive Blue and Grey Livery, I have never seen a photograph of this unit with teh logo in place.  The Clyderail logo originated in the report that led to the opening of the Argyle line.

 

Jim