HS2 under review

[Edwin_m]

Toton seems a very sensible decision to me - close enough to Derby, Nottingham, Mansfield, Loughborough and East Midlands Airport for anyone to consider driving. The only downside is it is north of Trent Junction, so not so easy to make links with trains coming north from Leicester towards Nottingham and Derby.

That could be precisely the problem with it.  If driving is easy and access by bus/train is difficult then everyone will drive there and there will be more congestion, pollution etc.  There is also I think a more subtle consequence, that it is easy for affluent people to drive there and go to London (taking money out of the local economy) but more difficult for people from London to get quickly to all the local communities (bringing money in!).  To my mind Meadowhall gets the balance about right but Toton will need a lot more work on local rail services, and a station at Ilkeston could be part of that. 

 

[Personal opinions etc as per previous post]

[Glorious NSE]

That could be precisely the problem with it.  If driving is easy and access by bus/train is difficult then everyone will drive there and there will be more congestion, pollution etc.  There is also I think a more subtle consequence, that it is easy for affluent people to drive there and go to London (taking money out of the local economy) but more difficult for people from London to get quickly to all the local communities (bringing money in!).  To my mind Meadowhall gets the balance about right but Toton will need a lot more work on local rail services, and a station at Ilkeston could be part of that. 

 

[Personal opinions etc as per previous post]

 

I think it's a bit of a presumption at this stage that public transport access to it will be difficult, clearly Nottingham are already on the case with the tram extension, I'd bet on plenty of bus links routing via their forecourt, and you don't build a brand new 4 platform 'domestic' station alongside the HS2 one with the intention of only calling the occasional local DMU...

[Armchair Modeller]

I think it's a bit of a presumption at this stage that public transport access to it will be difficult, clearly Nottingham are already on the case with the tram extension, I'd bet on plenty of bus links routing via their forecourt, and you don't build a brand new 4 platform 'domestic' station alongside the HS2 one with the intention of only calling the occasional local DMU...

Going back a bit, but wasn't Toton more or less the hub of the Barton bus empire, before Trent took it over?

 

Talking of the similarities/differences to Meadowhall, I wonder if property speculators are already looking for a site for a huge shopping mall next door to the proposed Toton station. It would not surprise me.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Armchair Modeller

[Joseph_Pestell]

Derby station is hardly in the middle of Derby anyway

 

Toton seems a very sensible decision to me - close enough to Derby, Nottingham, Mansfield, Loughborough and East Midlands Airport for anyone to consider driving. The only downside is it is north of Trent Junction, so not so easy to make links with trains coming north from Leicester towards Nottingham and Derby.

 

By the time the line is built, Nottingham and Derby will probably be one vast sprawling conurbation anyway.

 

I do remember it being a fair old walk when I went to an exhibition at the Assembly Rooms.

 

I think that trains coming up the MML to Nottingham and Derby may need to reverse at Toton to connect with the HS2 services.

 

With Long Eaton and Beeston, you are right that it is already very built up. The reverse curves to the south of Toton look quite tight for High Speed.

[Re6/6]

Just heard a good and relatively sensible debate on R4 'You and yours'. It was presented in a very 'informed' way from the presenter Julian Warricker. Such a change from the usual 'tabloid style' presenters.

 

On the show was Sim Harris (Rail News editor) and Martin Tett (chairman of 51L opposition group). The debate was very good and reasoned from both sides mostly without all the hysterical, half-witted rants from the likes of Joe Rukin (spokesman/leader of another opposition group) who often seems to be the 'go-to' individual to speak from the opposition. There seems to be a mindset in the media that shouty rants make good progammes.

 

Sim Harris gave probably the best case that I've ever heard, with sensible incontrovertible arguments. To be fair, Tett gave good and unemotional arguments, but at every turn he was successfully challenged by Harris.

 

Well done Sim for putting the whole case so eloquently. Perhaps HS2 head of publicity, the very silent Clinton Leeks could use Sim Harris on his team to great effect. We've heard absolutely nothing from Leeks who we would have thought that now was the right time to speak up for the project. After all that's what he's employed to do.

 

Edit: Check the programme out on I-Player when it's available. Worth a listen.

[Joseph_Pestell]

To be as glib in my reply, I'd like to point out that if you ticked any box on a ballot paper in the UK you would have just ruined said ballot paper.

 

Whilst you as an individual may vote for one party or the other, the voting of the nation as a whole led us into the coalition at the last general election ergo we got the government WE voted for.

 

No, we didn't. We don't vote for parties - although that is what most of us want to do and think we are doing. We vote for MPs.

 

For anyone that is worried that they have put a tick on a ballot paper, yes, technically it is wrong. You should have put a cross. But I have never known a ballot paper to be rejected because a tick was used rather than a cross.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Joseph_Pestell

[Rivercider]

Regarding the location of Parkway stations.

 

Bristol Parkway is over five and a half miles from Temple Meads and the centre of Bristol.

When it was built I believe it was principally built as an interchange station between cross country services

and London-South Wales trains, and not as an 'origin' or 'destination' station, however many people now start journeys there.

 

There are many areas of the Greater Bristol area for whom Parkway station is more convenient.

I know people from here in Weston who when  needing to make an early start for London or the north

will regularly drive to Bristol Parkway rather than Temple Meads as the access and parking is easier.

 

cheers

 

edited (to add relevance!)

Edited January 29, 2013 by Rivercider

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm not convinced it's so easy for the others. Contrary to popular belief W10 is not fundamentally any taller overall, so i'm unconvinced that double deck trains running off the core are so easy.

 

I don't think that I would want to suggest that a double-deck train to W10 is easy. But I am convinced that it is possible as it gives extra height where you most need it.

 

Under the track-access charging regime, a single-deck train running over HS2 is surely at a huge cost disadvantage which would be reflected in higher fares?

[Geoff Endacott]

The problem with Nottingham and Derby is that they are in the wrong place. If they were moved much further south, travellers could get to London much more quickly without the need to build HS2.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Joseph_Pestell]

I agree that not using double deck trains in the captive fleet would be a missed opportunity and a complete waste of the larger gauge.

However Martyn is correct that the"classic lines" will not be able to take anything but a severely compromised double deck train.

 

It's not only height; there's also the platform height and clearance issues.

Captive HS2 stock (single of double deck) will not be able to clear "classic line" platforms.

The "Classic compatible" stock will be designed for HS2, but compromised to fit through "classic line" platforms, in the same way that the Eurostar Class 373 was built to run on BR tracks prior to HS1 being completed.

Such a compromise on the "classic compatible" would make double deck so restricted at platform height level, as well as in height, that it wouldn't be worth pursuing. You just couldn't get a realistic design to work as a passenger carrying train.

 

 

.

 

I am aware of the difficulties - particularly platforms. But, as you say, Eurostar had to get past these difficulties as well and did so, even if it is at the cost of long "planks" between the train and the platform at St Pancras and GdN.

[Suzie]

With Eurostars no longer required for tunnel services they could be replaced with higher capacity trains and moved to HS2 for the extension services. A ready made solution if they are not worn out by then.

[GoingUnderground]

Can I ask if anyone on here, or anyone they know, will benefit from HS2 in whatever form it finally takes, and if so how?

 

Ed

 

Serious question, not intended as provocative

Me, as I now live well north of Watford, but was born and grew up in Greater London. I would happily use it whenever I go down to London on the occasions when I don't need a car. I'd use it whenever I catch the Eurostar to France, Belgium, Germany or Switzerland.

 

You might have been serious but I really cannot take your question seriously.

 

Perhaps we need HS3 to serve South Wales and the West Country. There would be a case for bringing that into Euston as well, which I thought I'd read somewhere was a certain Mr Brunel's original intended London terminus for the GWR. Euston & St Pancras are close enough to form a High speed Rail hub.

[Fenman]

Bristol Parkway ... When it was built I believe it was principally built as an interchange station between cross country services

and London-South Wales trains, and not as an 'origin' or 'destination' station, however many people now start journeys there.

 

I'm not sure that's true: I vaguely remember a BTF film featuring Bristol Parkway in which it is specifically stated that it was a new type of station, deliberately sited to attract car traffic able to access it from all directions via the nearby motorway junction. Hence the name, "Parkway" -- you park your car and go on your way...

 

Although, in fairness, I have the memory of a fruit fly, so could have got that completely wrong.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

Edited: to chop out an irrelevant bit that I accidentally quoted. D'oh!

Edited January 29, 2013 by Fenman

[APOLLO]

Well we have at least 20 years to sort things out, the important thing being connectivity. I don't know Toton, Derby or Nottingham but I think what will be needed is a rapid and very frequent link between the 3, be it heavy rail, light rail, tram etc (not the god awfull guided bus waste of time !!).

 

There will be many more areas, one being the western leg link to Wigan passes close to Leigh, which is the largest town in England without a rail service. They can't have a HS2 station, but they will need links to it, to Wigan, Manchester or Warrington, preferably all three. Separate to HS2 but needed now.

 

Another point is the country's two major airports, Heathrow & Manchester. I know Heathrow's future is a bit up in the air (!!!), but they can at least plan for dedicated train links between the two (or Heathrows succesor), replacing shuttle flights. Germany has been doing this for years (Lufthansa, DB, Koln - Frankfurt etc).

 

Finally connect the system by a link from Manchester to Leeds. Doesn't need to be 250mph capable and the old 4 track route Stalybridge to Huddersfield then on to Leeds via the old Gildersom route may be viable. Only 2 tracks used and the tunnels exist at Standedge. 100mph would be possible with Pendolinos etc. This would open up many cross country possibilities.

 

Dare I suggest re-open Woodhead also.

 

Brit15

[Fenman]

 

... Another point is the country's two major airports, Heathrow & Manchester. I know Heathrow's future is a bit up in the air (!!!), but they can at least plan for dedicated train links between the two (or Heathrows succesor), replacing shuttle flights. Germany has been doing this for years (Lufthansa, DB, Koln - Frankfurt etc). ...

 

I think the Heathrow situation is intriguing. I struggle to see the benefit of having a single station there, when the three groups of terminals are each +/- a mile from each other.

 

That means, assuming there's only one station at the airport, two-thirds* of passengers will anyway have to get on a shuttle of some sort (Piccadilly, HEx, etc) to get to their terminal.

 

If the majority of passengers are going to have to do that anyway, why not just shuttle them all from Old Oak Common and avoid inconveniencing all the non-Heathrow passengers?

 

Paul

 

 

* I know that passengers are not all distributed equally among the terminals, but numbers change and the point is that no single terminal or block (1,2&3 or 4 or 5) has a majority of passengers. So the majority will always have to transfer to another mode of transport...

[frobisher]

No, we didn't. We don't vote for parties - although that is what most of us want to do and think we are doing.

We're now getting into the realm of high pedantry. In general, people vote for the MP that represents their party of choice (tactical/protest voting etc aside). This returns a party mix of MPs and this ultimately shapes the ruling party/ies.

We vote for MPs.

Only for Westminister elections - some of us get to vote for people AND parties

[Mod6]

Let's keep any political discussion specific and relevant to HS2 please and not spiral off into general politics.

[Edwin_m]

I think it's a bit of a presumption at this stage that public transport access to it will be difficult, clearly Nottingham are already on the case with the tram extension, I'd bet on plenty of bus links routing via their forecourt, and you don't build a brand new 4 platform 'domestic' station alongside the HS2 one with the intention of only calling the occasional local DMU...

Not a presumption, I'd say it was more of a fear.

[Edwin_m]

Finally connect the system by a link from Manchester to Leeds. Doesn't need to be 250mph capable and the old 4 track route Stalybridge to Huddersfield...

 

 

Brit15

I took a look at the route from Stalybridge up to Diggle recently.  You'd need to put back about five large viaducts and build deviations (probably tunneling into the hillside) to avoid Greenfield and Uppermill where it has been built on, and even then the curvature means speeds and journey times would be little better than present.  Once all the three and six car trains are up to nines or 12s then it may be worth thinking about a new Transpennine route (which could be Woodhead with a link northwards to access Wakefield and Leeds). 

[298]

The problem with Nottingham and Derby is that they are in the wrong place. If they were moved much further south, travellers could get to London much more quickly without the need to build HS2.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

They are also too far apart (although as pointed out, by then the two sprawling masses w ould have combined to form Nottingby). Reminds me of the time I was working at Notts County Council and one of the gangs put up a "Welcome to Nottinghamshire" sign on the A52 just outside Spondon, several miles from the boundary....

[Glorious NSE]

Not a presumption, I'd say it was more of a fear.

 

Either way, I can't see it happenning. There's evidence it's been thought of, and they only have two decades to get it done in...

[Salopian]

 

 

Dare I suggest re-open Woodhead also.

 

I think the long term scheme of things is for the Hyde branch and Glossop/Hadfield line to become part of Metrolink. This would make heavy rail access to the western end of the tunnel nigh on impossible due to the topography between Hadfield and what would then be the nearest main line railway at Guide Bridge.

[peanuts]

I took a look at the route from Stalybridge up to Diggle recently.  You'd need to put back about five large viaducts and build deviations (probably tunneling into the hillside) to avoid Greenfield and Uppermill where it has been built on, and even then the curvature means speeds and journey times would be little better than present.  Once all the three and six car trains are up to nines or 12s then it may be worth thinking about a new Transpennine route (which could be Woodhead with a link northwards to access Wakefield and Leeds). your right about the viaducts and the swimming pool at uppermill  plus you would have to dig out the tunnels at royal george and ryefields  plus you have the timber works at micklehurst  but you are wrong about the curves they were much wider and easier that side of the valley , had a visit at Greenfield box once from gmpte chap looking to reopen the route due to it having easier curves  he soon left when i pointed out the back window of the box at the missing viaduct !

[Joseph_Pestell]

With Eurostars no longer required for tunnel services they could be replaced with higher capacity trains and moved to HS2 for the extension services. A ready made solution if they are not worn out by then.

 

They are looking pretty clapped-out now. Would help if they cleaned them a bit more often.

 

But otherwise, an idea that has legs.

[Marcyg]

 Leigh, which is the largest town in England without a rail service.

 

Brit15

I thought that was Gosport? Another town that needs a railway and got a pointless bus service...