Imaginary Locomotives

[john new]

16 minutes ago, DenysW said:

I think I agree, but I then find it odd that only the Russians were paranoid enough to have a different gauge from their neighbours.

Same gauge was sensible - you could attack beyond the frontier over your neighbours metals and if necessary retreat the same way. No need to break the gauge at the frontier and reload your materials and men.

Perhaps the legacy of war accounts for why Spain and France had different gauges - a deliberate ploy to slow down an invasion from either side.

 

Given the current military and political situation around the Crimea your point re the Russians may well have been paranoia! I don't know that much though about east European railway development, were the Russians actually connecting to anywhere over their frontiers with the early routes? Their first, or a fairly early one, I think involved one of the Hackworth family and was commissioned to link two royal palaces near St Petersburg.

[The Johnster]

Given their experience in WW2, for paranoid read foresighted and highly sensible…

[DenysW]

2 minutes ago, john new said:

Same gauge was sensible

Only if you expect to be the aggressor. My understanding of railway gauges on the Eastern front in WW2 was that the Nazis advanced and had to change the gauge to their own; then as they retreated and the Soviets advanced the process had to be reversed.

[billbedford]

Even today there are a few dual European and Russia gauge lines. 

[PhilJ W]

4 hours ago, DenysW said:

Only if you expect to be the aggressor. My understanding of railway gauges on the Eastern front in WW2 was that the Nazis advanced and had to change the gauge to their own; then as they retreated and the Soviets advanced the process had to be reversed.

It was found to be quite easy to reduce the gauge by 3.5 inches on plain track just by moving one rail inwards. It was just as easy to move the rail back again hence the Schwellenpflug.

[CaledonianYank]

Came up with an idea for technically a locomotive

I'm working on a fictional railway in a fictional country part of the UK. I was thinking of workarounds to streamline passenger operations and thought of Push-Pull trains. The only problem is that this is a tramway in a sense (It qualifies as a tramway, not a light railway). The tramway uses typical stock, like pre-grouping 4 wheel and 6 wheel carriages. I wanted to do something different and thought of something I think is brilliant. Locomotives would have equipment that would send steam through the consist, like heating, though the steam travels beneath the carriages. The engine and consist would have push-pull equipment, though, through sharing steam, the rear coach would act as a second engine.

When steam enters the brake coach, it goes through a small firebox to be reheated and sent through cylinders on the before mentioned coach. This might allow for longer consists and potentially make climbing the tramlines steep gradients easier. The push-pull equipment would make sure both power units would work in unison.

Perhaps steam could be reheated by the engines firebox as well, giving it extra power to travel throughout the system.

[CaledonianYank]

6 minutes ago, CaledonianYank said:

Came up with an idea for technically a locomotive

I'm working on a fictional railway in a fictional country part of the UK. I was thinking of workarounds to streamline passenger operations and thought of Push-Pull trains. The only problem is that this is a tramway in a sense (It qualifies as a tramway, not a light railway). The tramway uses typical stock, like pre-grouping 4 wheel and 6 wheel carriages. I wanted to do something different and thought of something I think is brilliant. Locomotives would have equipment that would send steam through the consist, like heating, though the steam travels beneath the carriages. The engine and consist would have push-pull equipment, though, through sharing steam, the rear coach would act as a second engine.

When steam enters the brake coach, it goes through a small firebox to be reheated and sent through cylinders on the before mentioned coach. This might allow for longer consists and potentially make climbing the tramlines steep gradients easier. The push-pull equipment would make sure both power units would work in unison.

Perhaps steam could be reheated by the engines firebox as well, giving it extra power to travel throughout the system.

The engines types of the tramway are as follows, if anyone is curious

• 2-2-2 Pt
• 0-4-0 Pt
• 2-2-2 T
• 0-4-0 T
• 0-6-0 T
• 0-6-0 Pt
• 0-4-2 T
• 0-4-2 Pt
• 2-2-2-2 T
• 2-2-2-2 Pt
• 0-4-2-2 T
• 0-4-0 Assist engines (These would be special brake vans and coaches)

The tramway connects to a branchline at its top station, and has special engines to take goods

• 2-4-0
• 4-4-0
• Modified GER A55 "Decapod" tank engine replica
• 0-4-4-0

A majority of the tramway engines are fitted with special push-pull equipment to run as multiple units and double head. This is justifiable as the tramway is quite long (it is a tramway due to space constraints of the area)

A majority of the engines also have 4 cylinders, two at the front and two at the back, to provide extra power

Edited November 25, 2022 by CaledonianYank

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, CaledonianYank said:

The engines types of the tramway are as follows, if anyone is curious

• 2-2-2 Pt
• 0-4-0 Pt
• 2-2-2 T
• 0-4-0 T
• 0-6-0 T
• 0-6-0 Pt
• 0-4-2 T
• 0-4-2 Pt
• 2-2-2-2 T
• 2-2-2-2 Pt
• 0-4-2-2 T
• 0-4-0 Assist engines (These would be special brake vans and coaches)

The tramway connects to a branchline at its top station, and has special engines to take goods

• 2-4-0
• 4-4-0
• Modified GER A55 "Decapod" tank engine replica
• 0-4-4-0

A majority of the tramway engines are fitted with special push-pull equipment to run as multiple units and double head. This is justifiable as the tramway is quite long (it is a tramway due to space constraints of the area)

A majority of the engines also have 4 cylinders, two at the front and two at the back, to provide extra power

 

I'll have a double of whatever he's on - straight!! 🤪

 

CJI.

[The Johnster]

So your end coach has a driving cab and a steam engine, like a steam railmotor, but no boiler, tanks, or conventional bunker because the steam is piped through from the locomotive, though there has to be a small bunker or oil tank on the coach to supply the reheating for the steam.  This does not need to be a firebox as such, as there is no boiler with firetubes to draw through a chimney; a normal fire in something like a potbelly stove draughting straight up a pipe will do.  
 

Not sure that this would have worked in practice; I’m no engineer but I can see problems with it.  The main one is the flexible hose or pipe connections between vehicles carrying steam to the small engines on (under) the coaches from the train engine boiler.  The steam pressure is going to have to be much higher than for steam heating, and leaks are likely to be be

numerous, copious, and scalding hot (I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near them), and you will lose a lot of pressure and possibly several shunters and passengers in that way.  Reheating the steam will make it hotter, but not increase the pressure as you need a containment vessel for that. 
 

Even if you can get useable pressure to the end coach steam engine, the capacity of the train engine boiler is going to have to be considerable to supply it’s own engine and all the others on the train, and in a long consist there will be several, and the boiler hence quite large and heavy.  When you say tramway, are you thinking of a street tramway or something like an interurban light railway?  In both cases the axle load is going to have to be fairly light; if it is a street tramway heavy trains will damage the street’s drains and the sewers, as well as any other services like gas or water supply pipes, and an interurban is going to need to run at a decent speed on reserved tracks which I don’t think the tiny driving wheels of your end-coach steam engines are going to manage.  Axle weight is still a problem becusse the whole point of interurban light rail is to be able to reduce costs by having a lighter rail; in this case you will have to have main line rail to cope with the heavy boilers, and you might as well have conventional locomotives pulling (or propelling) conventional trains on it.  SNCF had 12-coach push-pull trains with 2-8-2T locos on the suburban network out of Gare du Nord; I believe the control system was electrical.   
 

Tramways tended to have quite sharp curves, not ideal territory for the Decapod…
 

Where similar steam engines to your proposal were used, in steam railmotors, they were universally found to be of insufficient power to maintain the timetables and constantly ran short of steam, and had to be replaced with conventional locomotives and driving trailers.  None were ultimately successful, and that was with ‘proper’ boilers directly on top of the engines.  

Can’t see it being a flyer, sorry, but that is of course only as a real system; on a model, Rule 1 trumps any practical considerations or anyone else’s comments and you can do what you like, though if explaining how it works to yourself is important or even relevant to you, you will never be happy with the models.  If this is not relevant to you, then you will have enormous fun with the idea, which is after all the point of having a hobby.  Post some photos here when you’ve built it, it’ll be interesting to see how you manage to represent the steam engines under the coaches! The train engines are going to be interesting as well; I imagine you’ll use the tramway scenario as an excuse to enclose the driving wheels and motion on both coaches and train locos, but how will we tell that a 2-2-2PT isn’t an 0-6-0PT?

 

Good luck!

 

[melmoth]

10 hours ago, CaledonianYank said:

Locomotives would have equipment that would send steam through the consist, like heating, though the steam travels beneath the carriages. The engine and consist would have push-pull equipment, though, through sharing steam, the rear coach would act as a second engine.

When steam enters the brake coach, it goes through a small firebox to be reheated and sent through cylinders on the before mentioned coach. This might allow for longer consists and potentially make climbing the tramlines steep gradients easier. The push-pull equipment would make sure both power units would work in unison.

Perhaps steam could be reheated by the engines firebox as well, giving it extra power to travel throughout the system.

 

I think you've reinvented the steam tender, as per Archibald Sturrock and others. See https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/Steam_Tenders

[rodent279]

The big problem with a steam tender, as touched on in the text of the link, is that the weight of the tender reduces as coal & water are used, so reducing the maximum tractive effort available.

(The first paragraph in the link is painful to read...!)

[tythatguy1312]

45 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

The big problem with a steam tender, as touched on in the text of the link, is that the weight of the tender reduces as coal & water are used, so reducing the maximum tractive effort available.

(The first paragraph in the link is painful to read...!)

Funnily enough there was a way to get them working. Both the Listowel & Ballybunion railway and most large shay locomotives had successful powered tenders, connected by gearing to the main wheels. It's quite possibly the only thing the L&B got right.

[rodent279]

33 minutes ago, tythatguy1312 said:

Funnily enough there was a way to get them working. Both the Listowel & Ballybunion railway and most large shay locomotives had successful powered tenders, connected by gearing to the main wheels. It's quite possibly the only thing the L&B got right.

Think that involves some sort of steam pressure reduction valve that is weight actuated doesn't it?

[BernardTPM]

It would work using Diesel-electric technology and was used in Argentina. The mobile power houses could move themselves and provide power to traction motors located in their carriage sets.

[DenysW]

16 hours ago, CaledonianYank said:

Locomotives would have equipment that would send steam through the consist,

Reciprocating locomotives needed most/all of the steam to exhaust via the smoke box to suck air through the fire. Read about the Erie triplexes, and the difficulties of Kitson-Meyers.

 

Now a turbine at the front that can be designed for a discharge pressure that, by itself, drives boiler airflow (i.e greater than Turbomotives's 2 psig) could separate the two duties and Robert becomes your mother's brother.

[rodent279]

I wonder if small steam turbines could have been useful in steam railmotors? It might be possible to drive both bogies, and have a more powerful setup, more capable of hauling a trailer or two.

[JimC]

Supposing one had a steam driven electric generator set on the locomotive, and used that to drive electric motors under the carriages. Easier to transmit electricity than steam down the train. Kinda analogous to the electric assistance on modern formula one. Get the steam pressure up at the station and mortgage the boiler to use the electricity to assist acceleration and turn off the generator when the steam pressure comes down too much... 

[DenysW]

10 minutes ago, JimC said:

Supposing one had a steam driven electric generator set on the locomotive

Where this has been attempted it's been done on the HUMUNGOUS scale and has ended up inefficient and VERY heavy, but has not attempted to spread out the electrical motors.

 

Not saying it wouldn't work, just saying the odds are against it.

[tythatguy1312]

1 hour ago, DenysW said:

Where this has been attempted it's been done on the HUMUNGOUS scale and has ended up inefficient and VERY heavy, but has not attempted to spread out the electrical motors.

 

Not saying it wouldn't work, just saying the odds are against it.

my perception may be altered by Ohio's attempt but the first version, the Heilmann, was hardly big by locomotive standards

[Flying Pig]

8 minutes ago, tythatguy1312 said:

my perception may be altered by Ohio's attempt but the first version, the Heilmann, was hardly big by locomotive standards

 

See also the Reid-Ramsay and Armstrong-Whitworth designs in the UK, neither designed to supply distributed power.

 

1 hour ago, JimC said:

Supposing one had a steam driven electric generator set on the locomotive, and used that to drive electric motors under the carriages. Easier to transmit electricity than steam down the train. Kinda analogous to the electric assistance on modern formula one. Get the steam pressure up at the station and mortgage the boiler to use the electricity to assist acceleration and turn off the generator when the steam pressure comes down too much... 

 

Wouldn't it be better to go for all electric transmission?

[rodent279]

I'm sure steam-electric transmission is feasible, it just couldn't be done very well at the time. I know turbines are not very efficient at part load, but neither is a big diesel engine.

[CaledonianYank]

14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Tramways tended to have quite sharp curves, not ideal territory for the Decapod…

The decapod is intended to work as a banker on the steepest part of the line. The tramway uses mainline track and has decent curves. Due to space constraints on the open line, it cannot upgrade to a branchline

 

Perhaps the carriages and engine would power air compressors to enable the function of the final carriage. It should be remembered that the carriages are former non-bogie coaches from the GWR, LBSCR, MR, HR, CR, and other such pre-grouping railways.

 

Most of the engines with lead/drive wheels are capable of diverting steam to cylinders to drive those wheels if ever necessary, the singles being exceptions

 

The engines aren't narrow gauge as the line needs to carry too much material to justify building them as so, at least when the tramway was first opened.

Edited November 26, 2022 by CaledonianYank
spelling

[CaledonianYank]

20 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I'll have a double of whatever he's on - straight!! 🤪

 

CJI.

They've been ideas i've had since I was a kid. This line is entirely fictional and I use digital software, rather than physical space, to have layouts. It saves lots of money, I think, haven't had an actual layout in ages so I can't really say

Edited November 26, 2022 by CaledonianYank

[cctransuk]

8 minutes ago, CaledonianYank said:

The decapod is intended to work as a banker on the steepest part of the line. The tramway uses mainline track and has decent curves. Due to space constraints on the open line, it cannot upgrade to a branchline

 

Perhaps the carriages and engine would power air compressors to enable the function of the final carriage. It should be remembered that the carriages are former non-bogie coaches from the GWR, LBSCR, MR, HR, CR, and other such pre-grouping railways.

 

Most of the engines with lead/drive wheels are capable of diverting steam to cylinders to drive those wheels if ever necessary, the singles being exceptions

 

The engines aren't narrow gauge as the line needs to carry too much material to justify building them as so, at least when the tramway was first opened.

 

With all due respect, there seems to be some confusion / misunderstanding about the UK  designations of branch line and tramway.

 

These descriptions are not official categories/ designations. Tramways were either : -

 

a] what are known in the USA as streetcar lines; essentially street railways for passenger traffic, usually horse or electric powered;

 

b] very basic, minimally engineered light railways for areas where traffic would be either very light or for a specific industrial purpose.

 

Neither type would require or justify complex propulsion systems - basic blacksmith technology would be the order of the day.

 

Perhaps we need a new thread entitled 'Fantasy / Nightmare Railways'?

 

CJI.

[tythatguy1312]

Just now, cctransuk said:

'Fantasy / Nightmare Railways'?

finally, somewhere to describe the horrifying implications of Sodor having a uranium mine