Mk1 BSO.T Scotrail branding question.

[SC55015]

I've just acquired a BSO for conversion so I will be following along, and will post pictures of the work if I can add anything.
I've started looking through my images to see if I can find any more of the real thing. Here's a Far North one from April 1984:

From the other side it seems to be SC9002 and is on Commonwealth bogies:

 

[SC55015]

On 20/08/2023 at 03:46, young37215 said:

Having spent some time thinking about the BSOT conversion I decided to make a start on my new acquisition. Some good news to start, the coach has been lightly weathered and the steps on the coach ends removed just as I like. My first step in the conversion was to seperate the various parts that make up the BSO.

 

Step 1, remove the bogies. These slot into the chassis and lever out quite easily with modest pressure applied using a penknife. The bogies are BR1's which are perfect for my plan to start my BSOT fleet by creating SC9000.

 

 

 

Step 2, body seperation from the chassis. The body is a one part affair held in place by 4 clips in each of the cormers on the inside of the bodyshell, as can be seen above. Be warned, these break very easily! Using a knife, ease the body away from the chassis so that slivers of plasticard or similar can be inserted to enable the body to be removed. When all 4 are in place it should come away from the chassis very easily. My coach had been weathered and the dry paint is effectively acting as a glue between chassis and body hence it required a little more delicate fiddling to complete the seperation.

 

 

Step 3, seperate the chassis and coach detail molded plastic. This reveals the area for seat removal, the first seating bays on both sides of the coach. At first glance this could be fiddly because there is quite a lot of mold to cut away and the area includes the hole through which the bogies attach to the chassis. The molded detail will need careful cutting to not compromise the structure. With the coach now in pieces I stopped to consider how I might go about this. 

 

 

 

To add to the body removal  process, I got the four outer clips undone relatively easily (only breaking one) but found there was something else preventing the body coming away.

There are also two central clips, and one of mine was glued. I don't know if the glue is factory standard as it was purchased second hand so may have been the previous owner.

[SC55015]

For the predicament that young37215 found over the strength of the floor, I cut away the seating from one side, leaving the arch on the inside, and a strip on the closest side. The strip on the closest side could have been left higher to represent the heater ducting rather than being floor height. It's sitting on plasticard so I can mark out a piece for the floor:

 

The thick plasticard piece was then glued in place at floor height.

Once it is set I will take away the arch and level off the edges, then work on the counter side.

In a senior moment I drilled the wrong seating bay for removal so that will need a repair. I'm not the neatest modeller - I lack the refinement at this scale that many others have mastered, but it is my first coach conversion in about 30 years!

 

 

 

 

 

I need to also research which of the WHL vehicles it's going to become. This one was fitted with Commonwealth bogies.

[SC55015]

For the counter side I've left the seating/table where the counter will be (at least for now), then glued in the floor.

 

[SC55015]

Here is another internal image, and is the reverse view of an earlier one I posted of a BSOT that had a yellow vestibule, a West Highland vehicle circa late August 1986. Unlike the interior image of the preserved 9000 the partition separating the passenger saloon is full height.

 

[young37215]

On 24/08/2023 at 05:31, SC55015 said:

Here is another internal image, and is the reverse view of an earlier one I posted of a BSOT that had a yellow vestibule, a West Highland vehicle circa late August 1986. Unlike the interior image of the preserved 9000 the partition separating the passenger saloon is full height.

 

 

Interesting work so far on the seat bay removals, I feel more confident in starting to butcher my coach interior as a result. Having looked at my BSO again it is fairly clear that the central clip was glued in place which explains why I struggled to release the body. In summary for future reference there are 6 clips to release the bodyshell from the chassis.

 

Judging by the diagrams in Parkin, I reckon that an additional partition between the buffet area and the residual seating was standard on both sides of the coach. Whether pictures of other BSOT's from the 1980's can be found to verify this must be questionable but on the basis that I think adding in the partitions will strengthen the the coach, I am minded to add them to my first attempt. 

The Railtec transfer sheet 3015 looks an excellent starting point but because it covers Mk1 and Mk2 BSOT/TSOT's, it does not have the coach numbers that I want. I will contact Steve at Railtec and see if he wil create an an hoc Mk1 set of transfers.

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by young37215

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, young37215 said:

 

Interesting work so far on the seat bay removals, I feel more confident in starting to butcher my coach interior as a result. Having looked at my BSO again it is fairly clear that the central clip was glued in place which explains why I struggled to release the body. In summary for future reference there are 6 clips to release the bodyshell from the chassis.

 

Judging by the diagrams in Parkin, I reckon that an additional partition between the buffet area and the residual seating was standard on both sides of the coach. Whether pictures of other BSOT's from the 1980's can be found to verify this must be questionable but on the basis that I think adding in the partitions will strengthen the the coach, I am minded to add them to my first attempt. 

The Railtec transfer sheet looks an excellent starting point but because it covers Mk1 and Mk2 BSOT/TSOT's, it does not have the coach numbers that I want. I will contact Steve at Railtec and see if he wil create an an hoc Mk1 set of transfers.

 

 

 

I find Railtec’s website difficult to navigate, so in case you have the same problem, I think this is the transfer sheet you require. I had to ask Steve to find it the first time. He then sends you an email asking for the numbers.

 

https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=4188

 

Andy

[meanach]

If anyone here is handy with a 3D printer then perhaps some clever soul could create a drop in replacement counter and patrician and we all pay towards it ?

[03060]

3 hours ago, meanach said:

If anyone here is handy with a 3D printer then perhaps some clever soul could create a drop in replacement counter and patrician and we all pay towards it ?

 

I'm a member of the 3mm Society and a couple of our chaps have been working with someone (a commercial supplier) to produce new 3D printed coach interiors for both Triang and Kitmaster coaches, bear with me as I have one more night shiift to do and I will dig out the suppliers name for you to try, he was very accommodating I believe.

 

 Regards,

Ian.

[03060]

5 hours ago, meanach said:

If anyone here is handy with a 3D printer then perhaps some clever soul could create a drop in replacement counter and patrician and we all pay towards it ?

 

DC Resin Replicas is the supplier,

 

https://dcresinreplicas.co.uk

 

£8 per 3mm full coach interior.

Edited August 24, 2023 by 03060
Link added.

[young37215]

A little progress. I started to update the interior of the BSO along the lines described SC55015 using slightly different techniques. Step 1 comprised seperating the first and second rows of seating bays using a small razor saw. The first cut was made vertically between the first and second bays to seperate them.  Step 2 was to cut horizontally along the outsides of the interior a little above floor height. Using a combination of a craft knife, files and a little friction, I managed to extract the seating bays in small pieces. I then filed down as much of the residue as I felt comfortable with so as not to compromise the structural integrity of the interior. Step 3 was to create additional floor using 1mm plasticard cut to shape and glued in place. The glue needs to harden before I decide on how much lower to file the coach interior where, as suggested by SC55015, I will look at building the counter support on top of the remains of the seat bay which, once painted, I doubt will be visible.

• The coach floor is 1.5 mm thick. I used 1mm plasticard to create the additional flooring and glued it using Deluxe Material Rocket glue. 
• The internal dividing partitions further down the coach are 9.5mm wide. There are two of these, one either side of the walkway which I intend fabricating for the buffet area from plasticard

I have 3 BSO's that  I plan to convert and the thought of a 3D printed counter insert appeals. However I question how practical these might be given all the cutting and filing that is necessary to create the space required so I'll reserve final judgement until I have completed the first coach.

 

Step 1

 

 

 

Step 2

 

 

Step 3

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by young37215

[03060]

I would have thought that a full replacement interior could be 3d printed to make life easier rather than just an insert, DC Resin Replicas have full 00 interiors listed on their website for EMUs and DMUs I believe.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[keefer]

Thing is, how standard were the counter area fitments? From what i've read, the work was done on an ad-hoc basis at a couple of Works (particularly the earliest conversions). There are also  different finishes (i.e. wood or plastic facings)

There seems to be scope for as much difference internally (counter/partitions/seating) as there is externally (red band/buffet sign etc.)

Edited August 24, 2023 by keefer

[keefer]

BSOT layout from the BR Diagram book (originally posted in another BSOT thread, I'll have to find it though).

(I originally posted more but realised that 4 of them applied to the Mk2 BSOT, oops)

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by keefer

[young37215]

8 hours ago, 03060 said:

I would have thought that a full replacement interior could be 3d printed to make life easier rather than just an insert, DC Resin Replicas have full 00 interiors listed on their website for EMUs and DMUs I believe.

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

Good point, I had not thought about a full replacement. This would also resolve the second seating bay issue where the first seat on the side opposite the buffet counter is reduced to a single seat. I am choosing to ignore this point!. Does someone want to pick up the job of contacting DC Resin Replicas? 

 

7 hours ago, keefer said:

BSOT layout from the BR Diagram book (originally posted in another BSOT thread, I'll have to find it though).

(I originally posted more but realised that 4 of them applied to the Mk2 BSOT, oops)

 

 

 

 

 

Apart from the cutting out of the first seating bays, the only pieces to add in are the buffet counter and the partition walls. As Keefer says, the work done varied almost coach by coach where absent pictures of the 'as completed' internal arrangements, it is guess work on the layout that one chooses. To put this in context, I refitted the coach last night to test that it went back together which gave me the opportunity to view the internal layout. Baring in mind that I have not yet covered over the window on the buffet counter side, it was still difficult to see much inside the coach. I will settle for a simple buffet counter to finish my first conversion.     

 

 

[Daddyman]

Some really useful resources here, thanks. 

 

What's always put me off using the Hornby model is the colour of the blue. It's not going to match any other manufacturers' Mkls or locos, and yet these carriages in real life were almost always in trains of 2 carriages or more. Hornby's carriage requires at least a partial repaint, preferably while preserving the white line between blue and grey. 

[SC55015]

14 hours ago, keefer said:

BSOT layout from the BR Diagram book (originally posted in another BSOT thread, I'll have to find it though).

(I originally posted more but realised that 4 of them applied to the Mk2 BSOT, oops)

 

 

 

 

That's interesting to see, as I only remember counters that were parallel to the walls.

[young37215]

3 hours ago, SC55015 said:

That's interesting to see, as I only remember counters that were parallel to the walls.

 

Another example of the plans being ignored by the workmen undertaking the fit out I wonder?

 

I moved further forward today and created the partitions to divide the buffet area from the seated ares and the buffet counter from 1mm plasticard. It was all rather fiddly but seems to look OK, I have left the remains of the seating in place because I am concerned that removing it will compromise the structure of the interior. Once the glue has set I will do a little more sanding and consider which areas to paint. I say 'consider' because once the coach body is on, it is challenging to see what is inside.

 

I e-mailed Steve at Railtec asking him about a revised set of transfers focused on Mk1 BSOT's, Railtec 3015 does not have any SC90xx numbers for example. I'll report back once I have a response.

 

Partitions fabricated

 

 

Counter top and base

 

 

Partitions and counter glued in place

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by young37215

[keefer]

I think the Diagram design shows the desire to maximise the space behind the counter while not obstructing the aisle/opening into the seating area.

If the small square of shelf next to the former toilet door is removed, then it's possible to mount the counter more straight without blocking access to the door.

I'm wondering how many actually had the trolley 'cut-out' at all? Would help with locating/securing the trolley but was maybe just a bit of a faff in real life.

[SC55015]

9 hours ago, keefer said:

I think the Diagram design shows the desire to maximise the space behind the counter while not obstructing the aisle/opening into the seating area.

If the small square of shelf next to the former toilet door is removed, then it's possible to mount the counter more straight without blocking access to the door.

I'm wondering how many actually had the trolley 'cut-out' at all? Would help with locating/securing the trolley but was maybe just a bit of a faff in real life.

 

As far as I remember they all had the trolley cut-out.

 

If it were just a flat top anything sitting on top would just slide off. And there was nothing added to the conversions for supply of hot water for the teas and coffees - that came from the trolley.

[young37215]

A little tidying up combines with a first coat of paint and the finish line begins to loom for SC9000. I have not decided on what colour to paint the buffet area, there are only a few pictures and these all show a very light creamy/white colour. I have asked the question on the BR Coaching Stock IO group in an effort to find more pictures but in the absence of better information I am tempted to simply paint the vestibule end wall white to match the plasticard and see how it looks. I have also added 10g of lead at each end of the coach to bring the overall weight of the BSOT in line with Bachmann Mk1's. Compromises made in the conversion so far:

• Seating bays are not fully reduced to floor level to protect the intergity of the interior mold
• There is no window in the vestibule door
• The counter top is not rebated/cut out and is at a 90 degree angle to the end of the coach
• The door to the storage area is not modelled
• The single seat in the second bay of seats has been left as a twin seat

None of these seem major and with the bodyshell back in place they are virtually impossible to see and that is before the buffet counter side window gets obscured. Absent pictures to determine the specific layout of each BSOT I do'nt feel the need to do more than this. I am waiting on transfers to complete the model.

 

I would like a set of Hornby Commonwealth bogies for 1 of the BSOT's, I currently have 3 BSO's but these seem difficult to source. I dont believe that Hornby include them in their spares items and the obvious retailers like Peter's Spares do not stock them. Ebay currently has a set of BR1's up for sale but no Commonwealths. I'll keep my eyes open and hope that a set turn up along the way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[03060]

That's looking good Rob, spare a thought for us poor N gaugers as the nearest coach that I can find for a Mk.1 conversion is a BCK which will need door sections cutting from each side and transposing ... gulp ... I've seen it done but I'm not relishing it; reckon that I'll be trying a Mk.2 BSOT first for which there is at least a BSO starting point.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[SC55015]

On 25/08/2023 at 06:24, SC55015 said:

That's interesting to see, as I only remember counters that were parallel to the walls.

Maybe they weren't all parallel after all! I found these images on flickr (by Hugh Llewelyn) of 9377 - once 9003 - on the Dean Forest.
 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by SC55015
Original number added.

[young37215]

Interesting pictures of the internal layout, it looks like the cut out on the buffet counter has been infilled. I live reasonably close to the Dean Forest railway and intend going to their diesel event in a couple of weeks time. I'll look out for this coach and see if I can get some additional pictures showing different angles. I was sent 3 pictures of the actual SC9000 internal layout from the early 90's which is very similar. I'll ask the chap if I can use them on this thread but they do not look dramatically different to these.

 

Railtec have produced a MK1 BSOT set of transfers (their reference 3025) which I am waiting for to complete my model. 

 

https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=11117

[young37215]

Pictures of the inside of SC9000 in the early 1990's courtesy of Peak Rail Association. The colours of the coach end are interesting appearing to be laminate with aluminium framing presumably on top of the original wood panelling. The point has been made on the Coaching Stock IO Group that SC9000 was one of 4 conversions from a 1956 build BSO with predominantly wood panelling whereas the other 14 were from a 1963, predominantly laminate panelled build. The fact that SC9000 was converted to BSOT in 1981 and withdrawn in 1987, suggests that the panelling seen in these pictures is probably that of the original conversion. With SC9000 and SC9011 we have pictures of the buffet areas of both 1956 and 1963 built coaches, how close the other coaches were to these I doubt we will ever know unless pictures can be traced but I feel sufficiently comfortable with the information I have to settle for my version of SC9000 as I have converted it. 

 

What I have also found is that by 1984 13 of the 18 BSOT conversions were allocated to the SCR to cover the operational needs of the West Highland and Far North lines.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by young37215