Mk1 BSO.T Scotrail branding question.

[SC55015]

I'm pretty sure that this is 9000, it seems to be the only one that still the letter holders in place. It confirms that the blue laminate in the Peak Rail images are from the original conversion.

 

 

I started a new BSOT flickr gallery concentrating only on the WHL conversions: https://flickr.com/photos/bystuart/galleries/72157722081933100/

 

This was a useful one I came across of 9001, there are a few images where the vehicle had a blue band on a white window and this was the only one I could identify the vehicle, and it no longer has the red over three windows:

 

There is a list on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_Standard_Open_(Micro-Buffet)) of the vehicles and the four 1956 builds match the four with BR1 bogies. It shows eight of the eighteen are preserved so there is the potential for more interior images.

After looking through so many images it seems pretty certain that only 9000 and 9001 had the red stripe over three windows in the initial period after conversion.

On the non-counter side they had one distinct difference (other than letter holders), the top panel of the very right window on 9000 was white, 9001 was not:

This means that the following are very likely to be 9000:

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by SC55015

[SC55015]

Another little thing - 9015 and 9016 seem to be the only two that retained the original style of windows (no frames). All others seem to have frames.

 

Add to that that 9015 had ridge roof vents, 9016 had scallop ones, then these two are 9016:
 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by SC55015

[Robert Shrives]

22 hours ago, young37215 said:

Interesting pictures of the internal layout, it looks like the cut out on the buffet counter has been infilled. I live reasonably close to the Dean Forest railway and intend going to their diesel event in a couple of weeks time. I'll look out for this coach and see if I can get some additional pictures showing different angles. I was sent 3 pictures of the actual SC9000 internal layout from the early 90's which is very similar. I'll ask the chap if I can use them on this thread but they do not look dramatically different to these.

 

Railtec have produced a MK1 BSOT set of transfers (their reference 3025) which I am waiting for to complete my model. 

 

https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=11117

Lovely little sheet , just need to be smaller - well N gauge really...  amazing that a coach sub class can raise so much interest.  

[young37215]

10 hours ago, SC55015 said:

This was a useful one I came across of 9001, there are a few images where the vehicle had a blue band on a white window and this was the only one I could identify the vehicle, and it no longer has the red over three windows:

 

 

Some more excellent research material. Whilst looking at the above picture which dates to 1986, I found another BSOT gallery with a few new pictures (and a larger number of duplicates). Of prticular interest to me is that most of the BSOT's are located at the end of their consists which is in line with the carriage working notices. I'll also need tp get the white paint out again for the window on SC9000 which I had not noticed previously.  

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151135632@N04/galleries/72157713849495897/with/49774164058/

 

[SC55015]

My research continues on the individual vehicles so I can find a suitable candidate for my model.

For my conversion I've went with the cream partitions and orange counter as shown in my interior images so I need to know more about which vehicles had that style.

Today I tried searching for images of 9011 on the Embsay & Bolton Abbey Railway.

From https://www.alamy.de/stockfoto-embsay-und-bolton-abbey-bahnhof-buffet-auto-mit-der-bahn-stationsgebaude-spiegelung-im-fenster-145439033.html came this:

 

You cannot really see inside because of the reflection - the reflection was probably the main point of the image - but I just wanted to note that the coloured strips on the top and bottom of these 'buffet bars' are orange (see the rear side on the interior images) - they seem to be red on the railtech sheet.

 

Next I found this image (from https://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk/your-visit/food-drink). I stared at it for quite a while trying to decide whether it could be a BSOT:

 

 

Then I found this one which confirms it is 9011:

Although heavily converted since BR days, the cream partitions and faint pattern on the side walls styling match my interior pics (although the vent above the door is a different style). It is from https://steammemories.blogspot.com/2015/09/yorkshire-dales-railway-catering-on-our.html and they had another view further back at https://steammemories.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-buffet-car-is-always-popular.html which hinted at the more modern interior seen in the 9003 images from the Dean Forest:

Edited August 28, 2023 by SC55015

[young37215]

Over the last couple of days I pushed on with my SC9000 conversion which by the end of yesterday I had in service albeit for testing purposes only because it is not yet finished. A coat of white paint was applied to the internal buffet area.

 

 

By the time the white paint had dried I had discovered the pictures showing the blue interior in SC9000! A first coat of blue was then applied, this may need a second coat depending on how it has dried and covered the areas. The 10g piece of lead is also visible, there is another 10g at the opposite end of the coach.

 

 

I found that I had transfers to do the renumbering and the window in the brake area was painted white to create the unique feature of SC9000. The red stripe and 'Buffet' signs are outstanding intil the new Railtec transfers arrive.

 

 

A few passengers were added and the screen blocking the window behind the buffet counter was covered over using card glued in place with Glue and Glaze. The bodyshell was refitted and the coach placed in service at the rear of an Oban train. Only then did I realise that the number should be under the first window, not the toilet. Fortunately I have'nt sealed this yet which should allow it to be moved to the correct position.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by young37215

[03060]

Question .... do we think that every regular timetabled West Highland passenger service during the 80s should have  included a BSOT ?

[young37215]

42 minutes ago, 03060 said:

Question .... do we think that every regular timetabled West Highland passenger service during the 80s should have  included a BSOT ?

 

The CWN's are your source of reference for the definitive allocation but from a glance at the 1983 CWN, virtually every WHL, Far North and Aberdeen to Inverness trains includes a BSOT. Odd balls like the tea time Fort William Mallaig round trip did not but mainstream services during the summer months all include a BSOT. 

[keefer]

18 hours ago, SC55015 said:

the coloured strips on the top and bottom of these 'buffet bars' are orange (see the rear side on the interior images) - they seem to be red on the railtech sheet.

They probably were originally Rail Red, similar to the vestibules of Mk2b/c/d coaches. Probably faded a bit since then, hence looking more orange.

That style of sign certainly looks like those fitted to the 2d TSOT.

 

EDIT: the BR/BS spec colour was not Rail Red it was Flame Red, aka Azo Orange. 

Not sure if it was called Rail Red but another red used was a deeper colour i.e. less orangey.

Edited August 29, 2023 by keefer

[keefer]

Found mention of the first BSOTs in the 1979 R.O.:

September issue:

E9372 has been fitted with a small buffet counter in one compartment (sic) while its former toilet is now a pantry/storage area. It was displayed at Sheffield on 28th June and is known as a Micro-Buffet.

October issue:

E9376 has acquired a red stripe over the Micro-Buffet compartment next to the brake van (mistake there I think).

November issue:

SC9276 has become a Micro-Buffet as previously described.

Edited August 29, 2023 by keefer

[SC55015]

I found some scans of the early Platform 5 Coaching stock books which show the evolution of the vehicles in those early years.

This is from the 2nd edition, dated as correct to 1 January 1980:

Note were seems to have been seven ER conversions done before 9001. Does this mean that the numbering does not strictly match the conversion sequence? I can see the logic to separate those two when allocating numbers and it was obviously not known then that 15/16 would be from that same lot.

 

The third edition as at 22 January 1981:

Note 9000/1 have disappeared!

 

The next edition is dated as 13 January 1982. Underlines are obviously sightings, score-throughs (or highlights on the last scans) were ones I travelled on.

And the last one I have is dated 27 November 1982:

Interesting that 15/16 were the only two with dual heat and dual brakes, the rest were steam heat/vacuum brakes only.

[Flood]

15 and 16 were used on the sleeper so needed air brakes and eth once the Mk3a sleepers came in. In case they had to cover for any of the other BSOTs they kept their vacuum brakes and steam heat. 

[03060]

On 29/08/2023 at 09:09, 03060 said:

Question .... do we think that every regular timetabled West Highland passenger service during the 80s should have  included a BSOT ?

 

On 29/08/2023 at 09:55, young37215 said:

 

The CWN's are your source of reference for the definitive allocation but from a glance at the 1983 CWN, virtually every WHL, Far North and Aberdeen to Inverness trains includes a BSOT. Odd balls like the tea time Fort William Mallaig round trip did not but mainstream services during the summer months all include a BSOT. 

 

The reason that I asked about this was that I couldn't remember logging many BSOTs in my WHL 1980s train formations thread ... and after a quick check realise that my thoughts were right, so I may have to re-look at these notes and see if I've mis-identified several coaches. It also means that I may have to model more than the 2 BCK - BSOT conversions that I'd originally planned for.

 

Some great information coming through at the moment !

 

Regards,

Ian.

[kintbury jon]

Looking at the list above reminds me of the only time I ever saw one of these coaches in service.  Living in London it was not surprising, however on a day spotting in Reading (probably 1989 when I was about 12) I remember 31101 heading in from the west with a rake of about 5 coaches.  9016 happened to be in the rake and probably made it the rarest vehicle I have ever seen there.  The 31 ran around its train and then headed back out towards Didcot.  

 

I would love to know what service it was doing - way before mobile phones and Realtime Trains!

[SC55015]

4 hours ago, 03060 said:

The reason that I asked about this was that I couldn't remember logging many BSOTs in my WHL 1980s train formations thread ... and after a quick check realise that my thoughts were right, so I may have to re-look at these notes and see if I've mis-identified several coaches. It also means that I may have to model more than the 2 BCK - BSOT conversions that I'd originally planned for.

Here is the public timetable from May 1982. All the trains in and out of Glasgow are shown as having a buffet service except the last Oban service and the return working in the morning. It was the same in May 1983, the May 1984 timetable had a buffet service on those trains.
These of course just show whether they would be manned or not - not whether there would be a BSOT in the rake.
Regardless of whether there was a scheduled buffet service - it'd didn't mean there'd be a BSOT either. if there wasn't the buffet staff would commandeer a compartment to work from, normally the one nearest the brake van.

 

[young37215]

8 hours ago, kintbury jon said:

Looking at the list above reminds me of the only time I ever saw one of these coaches in service.  Living in London it was not surprising, however on a day spotting in Reading (probably 1989 when I was about 12) I remember 31101 heading in from the west with a rake of about 5 coaches.  9016 happened to be in the rake and probably made it the rarest vehicle I have ever seen there.  The 31 ran around its train and then headed back out towards Didcot.  

 

I would love to know what service it was doing - way before mobile phones and Realtime Trains!

 

Bare in mind that after January 1989 all WHL trains except for the sleeper had gone over to Sprinters meaning the coaching stock was available for other work. BR continued to withdraw life expired Mk1s and what was left was used as and where required. If I recall correctly, there are several pictures showing Network South East liveried rolling stock working the Far North. To find SCR stock on the Western region does not come as a surprise to me.

 

9 hours ago, 03060 said:

 

 

The reason that I asked about this was that I couldn't remember logging many BSOTs in my WHL 1980s train formations thread ... and after a quick check realise that my thoughts were right, so I may have to re-look at these notes and see if I've mis-identified several coaches. It also means that I may have to model more than the 2 BCK - BSOT conversions that I'd originally planned for.

 

Some great information coming through at the moment !

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

Based upon the pictures that I have looked at, I would say a high percentage of trains of the 1980's WHL era contained a BSOT. For modelling purposes I would like to include a BSOT in each of the 5 rakes used on the WHL. However the booked load was 6 coaches and having selectively compressed my stations, I only run load 4 which means that I either have 2 brake coaches in a 4 coach consist or just the BSOT on its own. I am trialling load 5 on the 2 Oban rakes at present but am not convinced that the extended train looks right on WHL4.   

 

At inception the BSOT fleet was split between Eastern and Scottish regions. I believe that the Eastern used them on Liverpool Street Cambidge services and they were trialled on the Birmingham Norwich services. Presumably these fell out of fashion for some reason as the P5 Coaching Stock books show the evolution of the BSOT fleet on creation and their migration to the SCR during the early 80's. I suspect that the railway journals of the day will have an article or two on this; is anyone aware of such an article? Can we get our collective hands on a copy.

 

From Robert Carroll's Coaching Stock Groups collection, the 1982/3 CWN's for peoples reference. There are other years available on Robert's IO Group.

 

ScR_1982-3_PTM Carriage workings.pdf

 

 

[SC55015]

7 hours ago, young37215 said:

Bare in mind that after January 1989 all WHL trains except for the sleeper had gone over to Sprinters meaning the coaching stock was available for other work. BR continued to withdraw life expired Mk1s and what was left was used as and where required. If I recall correctly, there are several pictures showing Network South East liveried rolling stock working the Far North. To find SCR stock on the Western region does not come as a surprise to me.

Did their demise on the WHL - other than 9015 + 9016 - come earlier than that, when the 37/4s took over (circa 1986) ? If all the others were only steam heat then that would just leave two useable vehicles.

Edited August 31, 2023 by SC55015

[meanach]

As it happens a none modelling (but west highland obsessed) friend sent me this photo today from Swanage. I asked if he could take some interior shots but sadly the carriage was locked out . He did however say it had dark wood interior and blue / green B.R ‘Bournemouth blue ‘ moquette upholstery. Photo c/o Dave Henwood. 

[hexagon789]

13 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

Bare in mind that after January 1989 all WHL trains except for the sleeper had gone over to Sprinters meaning the coaching stock was available for other work. BR continued to withdraw life expired Mk1s and what was left was used as and where required. If I recall correctly, there are several pictures showing Network South East liveried rolling stock working the Far North. To find SCR stock on the Western region does not come as a surprise to me.

 

 

Based upon the pictures that I have looked at, I would say a high percentage of trains of the 1980's WHL era contained a BSOT. For modelling purposes I would like to include a BSOT in each of the 5 rakes used on the WHL. However the booked load was 6 coaches and having selectively compressed my stations, I only run load 4 which means that I either have 2 brake coaches in a 4 coach consist or just the BSOT on its own. I am trialling load 5 on the 2 Oban rakes at present but am not convinced that the extended train looks right on WHL4.   

 

At inception the BSOT fleet was split between Eastern and Scottish regions. I believe that the Eastern used them on Liverpool Street Cambidge services and they were trialled on the Birmingham Norwich services. Presumably these fell out of fashion for some reason as the P5 Coaching Stock books show the evolution of the BSOT fleet on creation and their migration to the SCR during the early 80's. I suspect that the railway journals of the day will have an article or two on this; is anyone aware of such an article? Can we get our collective hands on a copy.

 

From Robert Carroll's Coaching Stock Groups collection, the 1982/3 CWN's for peoples reference. There are other years available on Robert's IO Group.

 

ScR_1982-3_PTM Carriage workings.pdf 6.7 MB · 5 downloads

 

 

 

5 hours ago, SC55015 said:

Did their demise on the WHL - other than 9015 + 9016 - come earlier than that, when the 37/4s took over (circa 1986) ? If all the others were only steam heat then that would just leave two useable vehicles.

Notes I have taken from the Summer 1987 PTM shows the Oban/Fort William/Mallaig sets as still having a BSOT. They are shown as Mk1 Vac Brake and Load 6: BSK - TSO - TSO - TSO* - TSO* BSOT (*Mk2 vehicles). Five sets total. Nothing stated on heating but I presume the original document would have this detail.

[young37215]

I am not that familar with coach formations post the 37/4 introduction but would guess that the BSOT'S were only in use for the summer, no heat period. I think I have a 1987 WTT somewhere to see what it says, it certainly looks like trains remained vacum brake which would have meant the BSOT's could have been included. For the winter timetable trains were much shorter without catering.

 

Railtec transfers arrived yesterday and were added to SC9000 to complete my efforts on the conversion. The red stripe should be longer but this would have meant using all of the smaller stripes leaving me without any for the next 2 conversions. I'll have to thinkk about how to manage this because the larger red stripes look to big. The location of the old number will get another coat of paint and I hope that a final coat of matt varnish will reduce its visibility as well as sealing the transfers.

 

 

 

 

 

[SC55015]

The interior pics I'd posted on here previously were scans of the prints, I've dug the negatives out and scanned those. They are never going to be perfect as they were just taken with a compact camera, but I have now been able to identify the vehicles. Surprise surprise, being 1986 - they are 9015 and 9016. Apologies for reposting them again, it's easier to explain why.

There were two pairs of BSOT images on the film, images of events in between show they were separated by a few months.

The first pair were taken circa May 1986 which was when I started as a buffet steward on the line. The wood finished passenger accommodation narrows it to four vehicles: 9000/1/15/16. We know that 9000 had blue paneling in the buffet area so we can rule that out, and I'm going to presume that 9001 was similar so that leaves 15 or 16.

 

The second pair were taken circa September 1986. Again, we can see it has the wooden passenger saloon.
There are enough differences to show they are two different vehicles: the seat moquette, the vent above the door to the vestibule, the window timber surround (on the big window) is brown on one (above) and black on the other (below - the seat sides have also been painted black).

 

So looking at exterior views 9016 can be seen to have Trojan moquette (see https://www.flickr.com/photos/nedchester/5535786850/) which means the above two are 9015 and the pair below are 9016.

 

 

[young37215]

Based upon SC55015's pictures and research, my choices for the 2 additional BSOT conversions will be SC9001 and SC9015. Having learnt from my first conversion I hope that subsequent conversions will be a little quicker. I will need more red stripe transfers from Railtec and replacement Commonwealth bogies for SC9015 but otherwise I am ready to start work. Commonwealth bogies might be a short term challenge, based on my efforts to find some I find that Hornby spares appear thin on the ground. A set were sold on Ebay June 2023 but there are none around that I can find at present. Worst case is I will run SC9015 with BR1's in the short term and hope to find replacement bogies at a later date. 

 

The 1986 WTT records all passenger working as vacum braked except for the sleeper so the BSOT's could continue working albeit they might be a bit chilly. A number of the pictures in SC55015's gallery show 37/4's hauled services through to 1988 indicating that the BSOT's remained in use. A look in the Longworth coaching stock book shows BSOT withdrawls started in 1985 with the fleet largely gone by the end of 1986 with only 3 surviving into 1987. How catering was provided post the BSOT I do not know, a trolley without a designated space?  

 

 

 

 

[Flood]

8 hours ago, young37215 said:

A look in the Longworth coaching stock book shows BSOT withdrawls started in 1985 with the fleet largely gone by the end of 1986 with only 3 surviving into 1987. How catering was provided post the BSOT I do not know, a trolley without a designated space? 

 

Mk2Z BSOTs instead of Mk1 ones. 9100 and 9101 were at Inverness but 9102 to 9107 were Polmadie based for the West Highland. 9000, 9003, 9011 and 9014 were at Polmadie at the start of the year but all withdrawn on 8th May 1987 (to co-incide with the start of the Summer timetable) . 9015 and 9016 remained as they were dual brake and the Mk2Z BSOTs were vacuum brake only.

[thegreenhowards]

I converted the exterior of my Darstead 0 Gauge Mk 1 BSO to a BSOT last year, but I never got round to doing anything with the interior - i.e. it was running around with normal seating inside. Well Rob has shamed me into action, so I packed the interior and a toolkit for my trip away this weekend and have hackled around at it during the evenings at my B&B.

 

I think I’ve got it looking the right shape but would welcome any comments - obviously I still need to paint it and will use paint to differentiate the trolley from the fixed counter.

 

 

 

One thing I wasn’t sure about is how the buffet steward entered the area behind the counter. Was there a lift up flap or a gap at the (former) toilet end of the coach?

 

I found it quite easy to get the old interior out. It’s a bit more modular with the Darstead coaches with each seating bay being glued onto a plasticard base rather than all moulded as one, so I could remove the seating bay just by inserting a knife under it. I think I’ll live without the removal of the one seat in the next bay.

 

 

Andy

 

 

[young37215]

8 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

One thing I wasn’t sure about is how the buffet steward entered the area behind the counter. Was there a lift up flap or a gap at the (former) toilet end of the coach?

 

There was a door added between the converted toilet and the area behind the counter which is visible on some of the pictures earlier in this thread, one of which I have copied below, and the diagram shows. The diagram also shows how the counter top was rebated to allow for the trolley to be inserted. I chose not to rebate the counter top because I wanted the wider top as part of the structural integrity of the cut out area. It also seemed to fiddly to bother with!, whether the same can be said for O gauge is for your judgement. From the internal pictures I have seen it is clear that in preservation the rebated counter top has been replaced  

 

 

On 24/08/2023 at 23:56, keefer said:

BSOT layout from the BR Diagram book (originally posted in another BSOT thread, I'll have to find it though).

(I originally posted more but realised that 4 of them applied to the Mk2 BSOT, oops)