Mk1 BSO.T Scotrail branding question.

[SC55015]

Now I've selected the candidate, I've been able to make progress with the model.

• I added two round no smoking signs. There should be three, but the Hornby model has three triangles when there should only be two.
• The red stripe was painted on - I have the Railtec transfers but I thought it would be easier to do for the bit over the door. On most vehicles the red stripe started at the halfway point between the buffet and the first passenger window, and this was true when this vehicle was on the ER (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10230917969868684). In that photo it has coachboard brackets, which I haven't seen in images of it on the ScR, so I'm guessing the stripe was shortened when the brackets were removed.
• On this vehicle the former toilet is distinct in having the main panel in white but the top two smaller panes were not (they'd be dimpled/frosted) so I carefully rubbed of the paint from the inside at the top.
• The Hornby number under the toilet was removed with kitchen polish. It's left it a bit shiny but it didn't go through the blue. A Railtec number was added under the buffet window.
• I created a buffet window inset. This was printed on photo paper as its thicker, the coach will have lighting this will avoid light shinning through which normal paper would allow. If a Railtec version is available in the future then I would put it onto plastic instead.

 

Here is the jpeg I used if it is of use to anyone else. You will need to rescale it to suit your printer then crop.

The bottom one has a larger 'C' (a per this prototype https://www.flickr.com/photos/140616380@N03/37865693284/in/gallery-bystuart-72157722058569992/) although printed out it is not really noticeable.

 

Studying buffet windows today, I've come to the conclusion that the ones on 9000 and 9001 were not white — but rail grey. The glass has just been painted over on the outside, and it also means the BUFFET stickers are on the outside of the glass. 9001 also has its toilet window painted grey. The third image for comparison shows the other style where the red lettering is on a white board inset behind the glass (in some images packers can clearly be seen).
 

 

Question - a while back on this thread it was noted that all the BSOTs apart from one ended up on the ScR - does anyone know what that odd one was?

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by SC55015

[SC55015]

Here is another I found in my own negs. This is SC9001 in Queen Street on April 9, 1983.
 

[young37215]

Interestingly the original Buffet sign installed on SC9001's conversion has been removed from the coach bodyside and replaced by what I'll call the standard window mounted sign. I cannot determine the length of the red stripe above the windows which we know changed at some stage. Having created both 9000 and 9001 in the same style, I would happily change one of them to something slightly different if I can find pictures to support the change.  This latest picture does half a job, ideally I need to find another 1983 picture of 9001 taken from the opposite side showing the buffet window cover.

 

For comparison, 9001 as converted.

 

  

Edited October 20, 2023 by young37215

[SC55015]

6 hours ago, young37215 said:

Interestingly the original Buffet sign installed on conversion has been removed from the coach bodyside and replaced by what I'll call the standard window mounted sign. I cannot determine the length of the red stripe above the windows which we know changed at some stage. Having created both 9000 and 9001 in the same style, I would happily change one of them to something slightly different if I can find pictures to support the change.  This latest picture does half a job, ideally I need to find another 1983 picture of 9001 taken from the opposite side showing the buffet window cover.

  

 

The red now stripe went from being the longer style to the shortest style, now only covering the buffet and corridor/ex-toilet window - not the door.

 

This is SC9001 in October 1983, the best example I could find of that side:

 

On the opposite side, the buffet window - and the main pane on the ex-toilet was now painted rail grey as my earlier post. This is SC9001 in June 1983:

 

 

[Robert Shrives]

This is all good stuff but for the N gauge modellers it is just a bit more of a challenge as we need to create a BSO.   BSK and a bit of cutting required.   give me time and I will join in! 

Robert  

[03060]

10 hours ago, Robert Shrives said:

This is all good stuff but for the N gauge modellers it is just a bit more of a challenge as we need to create a BSO.   BSK and a bit of cutting required.   give me time and I will join in! 

Robert  

 

Hello Robert,

 

I'd have thought that the starting point would be a 5 'passenger' windowed BCK and not a 4 windowed BSK.

 

Looking from the brake end of a BCK, RH side - medium window 1, double doors and  medium window 2 are good .... but .... the 2nd set of double doors and medium window 3 need removing .... the rest of the windows on this side are correct for a BSO(T).

 

Looking again from the brake end of the BCK, LH side -

Medium window 1, double doors and medium window 2 are correct ... but .... the 2nd set of double doors and 'blank' section need removing. The 5 passenger windows are correct but another medium window needs cutting into the 'blank' section at the passenger end of the coach, the final door is good.

 

The two sections that have been removed can now be swapped around except that another medium window needs cutting into the 'blank' section that will now be fitted into the RH side.

 

The arched rainstrip needs removing, as will the yellow first class line before any BSOT liveries are applied. A complete new interior would need creating .... although I've noted from the '00' gauge chaps that the counter area is barely visible through the windows in 4mm.

 

Whether this can all be done without too much 'unweatherable' damage to the coach paintwork is debatable, certainly a sharp knife and some accurate cutting method will be needed.

 

I know that Andy Gibb has done this conversion into a standard BSO on his Kensington Olympia thread with reasonable success .... but it's not for the faint hearted ! I've bought an extra 2 BCKs for this project but it's not on the 'to do' list just yet ... I need a layout first !

 

My hope is that Farish get there (along with a BFK) before I have to.

 

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Ian.

Edited October 5, 2023 by 03060
Description rewritten.

[young37215]

16 hours ago, SC55015 said:

 

The red now stripe went from being the longer style to the shortest style, now only covering the buffet and corridor/ex-toilet window - not the door.

 

This is SC9001 in October 1983, the best example I could find of that side:

 

On the opposite side, the buffet window - and the main pane on the ex-toilet was now painted rail grey as my earlier post. This is SC9001 in June 1983:

 

 

 

Helpful clarification on 9001, clearly the external finish of the BSOT was changed around 3 or 4 years after its intial conversion. Until now in my mind I questioned SC55015's views on the use of rail grey painted on the window but the above picture is clear even to a colour blind person.

 

I still think that an internal covering rather than paint was used on many of the BSOT buffet windows. What looks like an original cover can still be seen on 9003 below but, as we know, there were plenty of deviations from the original plans. For modelling purposes it is probably delving into too much detail but the BSOT's have got my interest and I would like to get a better understanding of how they evolved. I have looked in the early editions of Rail Enthusiast magazine which date from 1981 but these are silent on BSOT's. Does anyone have any magazines dating back to the period that might contain some information? 

 

 

 

 

 

[billywhizz]

Respray almost complete. A lot learned from a 1st attempt at a respray and 1st serious use of the airbrush. Slow down, light coats, patience and practice masking up better! 
touching in next where there has been some bleed under the masking tape and where I’ve chipped some of the blue, then a coat of gloss varnish ready for transfers. Still have the vestibule ends to spray in weathered black but just run out of airbrush cleaner, so that will have to wait. 

[Daddyman]

20 minutes ago, billywhizz said:

Respray almost complete. A lot learned from a 1st attempt at a respray and 1st serious use of the airbrush. Slow down, light coats, patience and practice masking up better! 
touching in next where there has been some bleed under the masking tape and where I’ve chipped some of the blue, then a coat of gloss varnish ready for transfers. Still have the vestibule ends to spray in weathered black but just run out of airbrush cleaner, so that will have to wait. 

Very well done. Encouraging results. What gloss will you use? 

 

This thread is certainly inspiring me to get one of these carriages going. 

 

EDIT: just picked up the Landore version from Kernow for £29.99 with postage included - cheaper than the secondhand one currently on Rails. Will need a full repaint, but I'm hoping to mask either side of the white line to avoid having to do it in transfers. We'll see. Will need a solution for the blanked off window too. But I'm joining the party - and will be very grateful for the information in this thread. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Daddyman

[billywhizz]

3 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Very well done. Encouraging results. What gloss will you use? 

 

This thread is certainly inspiring me to get one of these carriages going. 

 

EDIT: just picked up the Landore version from Kernow for £29.99 with postage included - cheaper than the secondhand one currently on Rails. Will need a full repaint, but I'm hoping to mask either side of the white line to avoid having to do it in transfers. We'll see. Will need a solution for the blanked off window too. But I'm joining the party - and will be very grateful for the information in this thread. 

Thanks for the positive encouragement. Based on the recommendation from our modeling groups airbrush guru, I will be using Vallejo Premium gloss varnish before applying transfers, then Matt to seal the transfers in. I have the Railtec white lining transfers but currently debating to try using a bow pen. 
Cheers. 
Bill. 

[young37215]

On 02/10/2023 at 04:44, SC55015 said:

Question - a while back on this thread it was noted that all the BSOTs apart from one ended up on the ScR - does anyone know what that odd one was?

 

I was incorrect in making the statement and have updated the comment. What I should have stated was according to Platform 5's 1984 Coaching Stock book, 13 of the 18 BSOT conversions were SCR allocated. The other 5 (No's 9009,9010,9011,9013 and 9014) were allocated to Cambridge. 

 

[Daddyman]

1 hour ago, young37215 said:

 

I was incorrect in making the statement and have updated the comment. What I should have stated was according to Platform 5's 1984 Coaching Stock book, 13 of the 18 BSOT conversions were SCR allocated. The other 5 (No's 9009,9010,9011,9013 and 9014) were allocated to Cambridge. 

 

Given such updates, and the necessarily scattered nature of the information on this thread, I wonder if a table would help? - coach numbers down the left hand side, with various features across the top: window rims or not, buffet lettering style (window and bodyside), treatment of windows (paint, etc), bogies, end details, roof vents, ScotR/rail lettering, coach lettering brackets, length of red stripe, anything else. I'd offer to do it myself but the corrections at later points in the thread would make it a little difficult. 

 

[SC55015]

7 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

I was incorrect in making the statement and have updated the comment. What I should have stated was according to Platform 5's 1984 Coaching Stock book, 13 of the 18 BSOT conversions were SCR allocated. The other 5 (No's 9009,9010,9011,9013 and 9014) were allocated to Cambridge. 

 

Thanks. That would likely have an 'information correct to' date of something like 31 December 1983.

 

At least two of those came to Scotland after that:

9010 noted on the WHL in 1985 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/126013292@N08/49851013858/)

9011 was operating from Inverness by at least August 1984 (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10159754443117263&set=pcb.2385640511616902) and on WHL services in 1985 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/81428320@N05/51714995517/)

 

6 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Given such updates, and the necessarily scattered nature of the information on this thread, I wonder if a table would help? - coach numbers down the left hand side, with various features across the top: window rims or not, buffet lettering style (window and bodyside), treatment of windows (paint, etc), bogies, end details, roof vents, ScotR/rail lettering, coach lettering brackets, length of red stripe, anything else. I'd offer to do it myself but the corrections at later points in the thread would make it a little difficult. 

 

Yes it would. I was thinking about a webpage/website on them as it's easier to update and link all the images of each vehicle, but I'm not sure when I'd get around to it...

[billywhizz]

6 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Given such updates, and the necessarily scattered nature of the information on this thread, I wonder if a table would help? - coach numbers down the left hand side, with various features across the top: window rims or not, buffet lettering style (window and bodyside), treatment of windows (paint, etc), bogies, end details, roof vents, ScotR/rail lettering, coach lettering brackets, length of red stripe, anything else. I'd offer to do it myself but the corrections at later points in the thread would make it a little difficult. 

 

Was thinking similar and thought about putting together an excel table to try and collate basic info that wouldn’t change such as bogie type, roof vent etc

[Daddyman]

4 hours ago, billywhizz said:

Was thinking similar and thought about putting together an excel table to try and collate basic info that wouldn’t change such as bogie type, roof vent etc

Google Sheets would allow collaboration, and then once done it can be screenshotted and posted on here. That way, one person wouldn't have to do everything. It would just take someone to start the Sheet, and then those that wanted to contribute to share their email addresses. It has a "wiki" function where if someone gets something wrong, more knowledgeable people can correct it. 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Daddyman

[Daddyman]

Is another factor blue versus black solebars? Or are they all blue but just mucky? 

 

The Landore thing has arrived and it's a shocker! While Hornby's artwork shows the BR blue as something like BR blue, the actual shade is a Toytown blue like nothing that ever ran on rails. I suspected this was going to happen, but had hoped they might at least pull their weight with the blue, and leave the grey to me. So the masking job will be the worst-case scenario - there are all the window bars/frames to mask, too, which I'd overlooked... 

 

[Daddyman]

OK, so I've been back through everything in the thread and if I've read it correctly it seems that the Hornby model can only represent 9016 as it's the only one without window frames (there's mention at one point of 9015 also being without them, the preservation views in the thread show it with frames). Is that right? And to do 9016 replacement vents are needed - anyone know a source? 

 

Don't suppose anyone has a set of glazing for a blue/grey one that they've wrecked and want to sell/donate? 

[billywhizz]

Just been looking into window frames for my 2nd conversion (and subsequent repaints for the rest of the Hornby MK1 fleet to match the BSO(T) Shawplan / Extreme Etchings do sets of frames for MK1 opens and BG so a combination of sets could provide the frames required. 
I think MJT / Dart castings do roof vents. Something else I need to look into for the 2nd BSO(T) conversion. 
@Daddyman could repaint the glazing bars with a lining pen possibly? EKM or Peters spares might be worth a try for a set of replacement glazing. 
 

[SC55015]

19 hours ago, Daddyman said:

OK, so I've been back through everything in the thread and if I've read it correctly it seems that the Hornby model can only represent 9016 as it's the only one without window frames (there's mention at one point of 9015 also being without them, the preservation views in the thread show it with frames). Is that right? And to do 9016 replacement vents are needed - anyone know a source? 

 

Don't suppose anyone has a set of glazing for a blue/grey one that they've wrecked and want to sell/donate? 

9015 did not receive frames until preservation. So out the box 9015 is the closest match as the roof vents are the same.

[billywhizz]

Not a lot of progress here due to lots of family and work commitments. Whilst not being at the work bench, I have managed to get some red “MICRO-BUFFET” transfers printed. 
I have also now have some Shawplan / Extreme Etchings MK1 window frames. To fit frames to a BSO(T) you will need a set of EECD4008 (MK1 standard frames) and EECD4008(A) MK1 brake coach frames. 
Hopefully MJT / Dart Castings will be at Warley so I can pick up roof vents for my 2nd conversion which will have window frames fitted, different roof vents and Commonwealth bogies to add some variety to the fleet. Just need to work out what running number will be suitable for it. 
Need to decide whether to use white lining transfers for the white band between the blue and grey or have a try with a lining pen. 
Cheers. 
Bill. 

[SC55015]

I finally put my vehicle back together and took it for a test run.

[young37215]

On 05/10/2023 at 18:03, billywhizz said:

Still have the vestibule ends to spray in weathered black

 

Based upon the numerous pictures I have seen which can be found in the Flickr BSOT gallery created by SC55015, I think the vestibule ends are mostly, if not all, blue. Many appear black but this is krap uncleaned during carriage washing, not black paint.

 

 

 

 

 

[billywhizz]

On 18/10/2023 at 07:26, young37215 said:

 

Based upon the numerous pictures I have seen which can be found in the Flickr BSOT gallery created by SC55015, I think the vestibule ends are mostly, if not all, blue. Many appear black but this is krap uncleaned during carriage washing, not black paint.

 

 

 

 

 

Apologies for the confusion @young37215 I meant the corridor connections have been sprayed using weathered black, not the vestibule ends. My fault. 
I have collated the variant information about SCR BSO(T)’s from this thread and about ready to put it into some form of table format, then see if anyone can fill in some of the of gaps and double check my work for accuracy. 
Cheers, Bill. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by billywhizz
Add content

[billywhizz]

Apologies for the delay in getting a spread sheet together. This is what I have so far. Please free to suggest any additions and highlight any errors I’ve made. 

[young37215]

The table is a great starting point although based upon discussion in this thread and what is required to create a BSOT, I think it could do with a few additional columns. I started to list them and then thought why not just use billywhizz's as a start and extend that. Here is what I created, most of the information comes from Longworth. 

 

 

I am not intending on maintaining this, if someone cleverer than me can put it somewhere it can be updated then that works for me.

 

Edit see later in thread for updated spreadsheet

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by young37215