Traction Tyres - Just for Traction?

[Sir TophamHatt]

Are traction tyres just used for extra adhesion?

 

There's no isolating of that wheel from the rest of the motor or anything funny like that is there?

 

I have a class 89 tank loco that has a single traction tyre on but its pretty work and cracked. I don't think the wheel has a groove either so it's just a case of slipping it off.

[Hilux5972]

The hint is in the name. They are just there for extra adhesion. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

My understanding is that they are there to deposit a nice filthy layer of crud onto the track giving electrical problems all round, and then after a few years go all shiny and stop being any use.

Personally I'd ditch them, unless you're running 10 bogies coaches up the side of a mountain there are better ways to gain adhesion, the Hornby Class 50 being a good case in point.

 

Mike.

[Sir TophamHatt]

Thanks.

I thought so.

 

I have two other locos that have traction tyres but these have a little groove built into the wheel so will need a new wheel set.  Old locos though so haven't the foggiest where to start!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

9 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

I have two other locos that have traction tyres but these have a little groove built into the wheel so will need a new wheel set.  Old locos though so haven't the foggiest where to start!

If the appearance with the traction tyres removed doesn't offend, just try them on the layout. Because the  wheel diameter has been reduced by removal of the traction tyre, it won't contact the track, unless there are fairly significant vertical changes in rail top. I have seen quite a few locos with owner complaints of lack of traction compared to 'how it previously pulled': and it's because the little rubber band has broken and fallen off at some point. The loco still ran OK, the previously traction tyred wheel operating like an old style unflanged driving wheel with the tyre clear of the railhead.

[Sir TophamHatt]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

If the appearance with the traction tyres removed doesn't offend, just try them on the layout.

Doesn't offend me.

While I understand they're there for traction, most of the locos won't be pulling more than a few coaches but it's the lack of contact with the rail, which is more of a concern.

 

Then again, I guess I should check whether that wheel is actually doing any picking up!  I guess it wouldn't make sense if it did

Edited October 30, 2019 by Sir TophamHatt

[Butler Henderson]

12 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

My understanding is that they are there to deposit a nice filthy layer of crud onto the track giving electrical problems all round

That was demonstrated clearly post one exhibition whereby most of the track was noticeably filthy bar one length which just happened to be the one section of track had been avoided by the sole loco on the layout with a traction tyre on it. I understand its not necessarily an issue if the right material is used but unfortunately all UK stock seems to use black rubber, 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

With regard to removing the traction tyre equipped wheel, if there is an upgraded model of the loco released at a later date it may be fitted with a "proper" wheelset and a straight replacement may be possible, as in the case of the aforementioned Class 50, if not, a replacement wheelset from the same loco which doesn't have a traction tyre may be obtained and fitted.

 

Mike.

[cypherman]

hi there,

You do not mention if any of these are Hornby tender drive engines. it is very easy to swap out the wheels with the traction tyres for plain ones. You should be able to get the new wheels as spares from Peters Spares. They just slide off the axels. I personally do not like the look of the wheels with the grooves showing. But beware the performance is greatly reduced without the tyres. To get back some of that performance you need to pack the engine with extra weight.

[Enterprisingwestern]

20 hours ago, cypherman said:

hi there,

You do not mention if any of these are Hornby tender drive engines. it is very easy to swap out the wheels with the traction tyres for plain ones. You should be able to get the new wheels as spares from Peters Spares. They just slide off the axels. I personally do not like the look of the wheels with the grooves showing. But beware the performance is greatly reduced without the tyres. To get back some of that performance you need to pack the engine with extra weight.

 

If it's a tender drive model, then packing the loco with weight will add to the problems.

 

Mike.

[cypherman]

6 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

If it's a tender drive model, then packing the loco with weight will add to the problems.

 

Mike.

Hi Mike,

By engine I meant where the motor is housed and not the actual engine itself. Sorry if I phrased the statement wrong.

[The Johnster]

My opinion on the subject of traction tyres has been aired on this site before.  The pre-watershed version is that they are Satan's Snot, best disposed of as soon as you take the loco out of the box, and certainly long before it is put on the track.  Give them the opportunity of an exciting new career in landfill.  They date largely from the 70s/80s when the standard of realism on RTR models began to improve.  Boiler skirts, motors filling cabs, and visible brass worm gears were out, daylight between boiler and running plate, and brake block and rigging below the running plate were in, as were cab details on steam and diesel locos (diesel includes electric for the purposes of this discussion). 

 

That meant that, for many RTR locos, the motors had to be positioned so that they did not intrude visually, and the previous 'norm' of big open frame motors driving through worm and cog transmissions was abandoned.  The replacement was vertically mounted 'pancake' motors driving through trains of plastic spur gears (on tender drives these spur gears often intruded far more visually than the previous offenders).  These motors couldn't pull the skin off the milk, and had to run at very high rpms to develop any sort of power.  This in turn meant large trains of spur reduction gears to bring running speed down to less than warp, which of course induced friction and sapped the already limited power of the pathetic little motors.  As rails were now nickel silver because steel rusted, Triang's 'Magnadesion' was no use, so the RTR manufacturers resorted to traction tyres.

 

Traction tyres have absolutely no advantages to offer whatsoever beyond enabling an inadequate type of mechanism that was not fit for purpose to pass muster, barely.  They spread crud everywhere, interfere with pickup because not only do they prevent pickup from that wheelset but lift the loco's wheels slightly off the track (because the tyre never sits perfectly in the groove, or it wouldn't work) so that it will stall on any dead frog or other impediment no matter how clean and well adjusted the rest of the pickup mechanism is kept, then they wear and slip, eventually coming off in a flangeway and causing a potentially expensive high speed propulsion of coaches on to the floor.

 

Modern mechs have reverted to worm and cog gear drive, using cheap as chips can motors that can develop decent power at low rpms.  Satan's snot is a thing of the past, and not everything was better in the old days.

 

If you have removed a tyre, then first let me congratulate you on your perspicacity and good sense, and then tell you that, if your track is laid flat and smoothly, you will not have any problems with the groove in the wheel that it has left behind.  The potential for problems is limited to the convex curve in the vertical plane at the top of a gradient, where there is potential for the rail to run inside the groove and grip on the sides of it, and any turnouts or crossings where the vees are not flat and properly inset into the plastic housings.  If the groove is visually offensive, then replace the wheelset, which will marginally improve your pickup and traction further, but this is gilding the lily and not essential.

 

You have been rewarded already be improved running and pickup, and your slow running has been drastically improved, as has the smoothness of your starts and stops.  If you are unable to pull a realistic load at a realistic speed, so do real locos if they are handled roughly.  If careful, by which I mean proper, driving still does not enable you to pull the load, then attack the problem with a combination of ballasting above the driving wheels and ensuring that all your stock's wheelsets are metal (plastic increases rolling resistance and spreads almost as much crud as traction tyres)m run freely, square, and true, and have correct back to back measurements confirmed with a quality brass gauge.  

 

Gradients of course, but also curvature and the check rails of turnouts and crossings, will increase rolling resistance, as will dead weight of rolling stock.  Ballast is essential in rolling stock, but my loaded coal train of 11 wagons and a toad is loaded with real coal without card or foam fillers.  It can induce slipping with Bachmann 56xx if I'm heavy handed, but I like this.  A Hornby 42xx, proper thug of a loco, just plays with the train!

 

With further regard to haulage, Bachmann use an alloy for their driving wheel rims that is very good in terms of pickup but needs a long, high mileage, running in before they 'roughen up' sufficiently to develop their full tractive potential.  Patience, grasshopper, patience...

Edited November 6, 2019 by The Johnster

[D9020 Nimbus]

Strangely, European manufacturers such as Fleischmann, who generally produced better quality mechanisms, made extensive use of traction tyres—and many still do.

[wasdavetheroad]

Traction tyres are OK, as long as you coat them with Bullfrog Snot

[giz]

27 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Strangely, European manufacturers such as Fleischmann, who generally produced better quality mechanisms, made extensive use of traction tyres—and many still do.

Even the latest Roco and Piko all wheel drive diesel locos have a couple of wheels with traction tyres.

[Philou]

I've already muttered darkly on a similar thread a couple of days ago - I agree fully with The Johnster. One item not mentioned is that over-oiling of the loco mechanisms can get onto the tyre and cause it to expand and become flaccid and it will fall out of the groove.

 

I am pleased to say that none of my locos of recent vintage have tyres, but all those of my late father do and not one of the locos (all continental including Roco and Fleischmann) is fit for purpose due to flaccid tyres. I wonder in the case of crud, if it is oil that has got into the tyre?

 

As The Johnster has already said, think about upgrading any plastic wheels to metal ones, too.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip