Class 8 - Class H Goods Trains

[RonnieS]

It may have been even more complex in that  weights and speed were involved in applying the head code?

i. e, The Fawley Bromford Bridge Oil Trains went North Loaded at 750 tons under a D head code but returned South empty as class  C. 

 

If I am correct in reading the enclosed max weight under  C lamps is about 600 tons?

[RonnieS]

This may also be relevant? Its LMS late '40s I believe.

[LMS2968]

In those days, train weight for goods workings weren't used, just the number of wagons. The complexity is that the standard wagon was equal to one, and then other, heavier wagons would have a loading, say = 1 1/2. Then they would be added up and the driver advised something like, 43 equal to 49.

 

The problems were that individual loaded wagons of the same type might be carrying very different weights: one 12T open might be carrying large lump coal and a similar one carrying wet slack. There would be a big difference in the loaded weight. Closed vans were even worse: one 12T might be 'full' with only three or four tons aboard.

[The Stationmaster]

13 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

In those days, train weight for goods workings weren't used, just the number of wagons. The complexity is that the standard wagon was equal to one, and then other, heavier wagons would have a loading, say = 1 1/2. Then they would be added up and the driver advised something like, 43 equal to 49.

 

The problems were that individual loaded wagons of the same type might be carrying very different weights: one 12T open might be carrying large lump coal and a similar one carrying wet slack. There would be a big difference in the loaded weight. Closed vans were even worse: one 12T might be 'full' with only three or four tons aboard.

And the Companies, and their successor BR Region(s) each used their own system of calculating freight train loads which in some cases - as above in the LMS example was based solely on the number of wagons.  A unified system did not appear until 1968 when BR introduced its comprehensive Freight Train Loads System based entirely on tonnage with vehicle loads classified as either 'Heavy', 'Medium' or 'Light' depending on what was in the wagon although in some respects it was still an approximation but it did reduce the wagon weight to a number, in tons.  

 

And off we went off on a one day course to learn the new system.  But it all gota whole lot easier when TOPS came along and was gradually programmed to do the maths for everybody.

[Aire Head]

4 hours ago, RonnieS said:

This may also be relevant? Its LMS late '40s I believe.

That looks like it relates to class D workings.

 

It's interesting that only certain locomotives are regarded as being able to operate these services. Noticeable by its absence is the humble 8F which is presumably down to its low top speed making it suitable for an "express freight".

 

It's certainly made me think as bit more about what locomotives are suitable to carry certain headcodes.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

That looks like it relates to class D workings.

 

It's interesting that only certain locomotives are regarded as being able to operate these services. Noticeable by its absence is the humble 8F which is presumably down to its low top speed making it suitable for an "express freight".

 

It's certainly made me think as bit more about what locomotives are suitable to carry certain headcodes.

Hi

 

Some of us have quoted from official documents and others have recalled their personal experience of being railwaymen, which is hopefully great help to you.

 

Another help would be trawling through books and photos on the internet  looking at freight trains of your chosen period and in the locality you are modelling.  Traffic flows across the country have never been the same, so looking at a class 8 train conveying empty wagons for the cauliflower harvest in Cornwall will have different wagons behind it compared to a coal train making its way to a steel works in South Yorkshire. Having trains that look the part both era and location really helps with the message your layout conveys. It is also worth remembering that there were headcode changes in 1952 (I think, Mike will put me right otherwise), 1962 and 1969, so dated photos are a must.

[LMS2968]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

That looks like it relates to class D workings.

 

It's interesting that only certain locomotives are regarded as being able to operate these services. Noticeable by its absence is the humble 8F which is presumably down to its low top speed making it suitable for an "express freight".

 

It's certainly made me think as bit more about what locomotives are suitable to carry certain headcodes.

At that time, the 8Fs were regarded as normal goods and mineral engines. Later, some were rebalanced to 50% reciprocating balance, a star was painted on the cabside to denote this, and allowed (officially) to run at 50 mph (and a lot more unofficially) and could then allowed on these workings, often referred to as 'Maltese Cross' due to the symbol beside them in the WTT. Some sheds used 8Fs, Black Fives, Baby Scots, 5Xs (Jubilees to you!) and Crabs indiscriminately on these fitteds.

 

Pre-war the 8Fs were almost all confined to the Midland Division, mostly at its southern end. Afterwards, with so many built for war service, they invaded the Western Division, but it was a long time before they made inroads into the Central Division, the ex-L&YR.

Edited November 6, 2019 by LMS2968

[RonnieS]

7 hours ago, RonnieS said:

It may have been even more complex in that  weights and speed were involved in applying the head code?

i. e, The Fawley Bromford Bridge Oil Trains went North Loaded at 750 tons under a D head code but returned South empty as class  C. 

 

If I am correct in reading the enclosed max weight under  C lamps is about 600 tons?

I thought I had added this earlier!

[Aire Head]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi

 

Some of us have quoted from official documents and others have recalled their personal experience of being railwaymen, which is hopefully great help to you.

 

Another help would be trawling through books and photos on the internet  looking at freight trains of your chosen period and in the locality you are modelling.  Traffic flows across the country have never been the same, so looking at a class 8 train conveying empty wagons for the cauliflower harvest in Cornwall will have different wagons behind it compared to a coal train making its way to a steel works in South Yorkshire. Having trains that look the part both era and location really helps with the message your layout conveys. It is also worth remembering that there were headcode changes in 1952 (I think, Mike will put me right otherwise), 1962 and 1969, so dated photos are a must.

 

Apologies if I came across as ungrateful all of information supplied has been really useful!

 

I've certainly been trawling the resources I have immediately available and have certainly been helped by certain websites covering the exact area I wish to depict at the period I wish to represent. I'm sure that not everyone is so lucky!

[Clive Mortimore]

18 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Apologies if I came across as ungrateful all of information supplied has been really useful!

 

I've certainly been trawling the resources I have immediately available and have certainly been helped by certain websites covering the exact area I wish to depict at the period I wish to represent. I'm sure that not everyone is so lucky!

Hi

 

You never came across as being ungrateful. 

[Aire Head]

12 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi

 

You never came across as being ungrateful. 

Well that's good to know! 

 

I would be interested to know of there was any vehicles which shouldn't be marshalled into a Class C fully fitted freight. (Apart from the obvious)

 

I'm reading between the lines a bit and saying that a class H is a bit more of a free for all in the scheme of things.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Aire Head

[The Stationmaster]

On 06/11/2019 at 15:55, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi

 

Some of us have quoted from official documents and others have recalled their personal experience of being railwaymen, which is hopefully great help to you.

 

Another help would be trawling through books and photos on the internet  looking at freight trains of your chosen period and in the locality you are modelling.  Traffic flows across the country have never been the same, so looking at a class 8 train conveying empty wagons for the cauliflower harvest in Cornwall will have different wagons behind it compared to a coal train making its way to a steel works in South Yorkshire. Having trains that look the part both era and location really helps with the message your layout conveys. It is also worth remembering that there were headcode changes in 1952 (I think, Mike will put me right otherwise), 1962 and 1969, so dated photos are a must.

The dates I have got documentation for are as follows -

May 1950, new 'standard BR headcode introduced (until then the previous Company headcodes/classifications had applied).  

(On the WR Class A included 'express Diesel Car' and Class B included Ordinary diesel car and express parcels car - these were discontinued as specific comments in October 1960.)

September 1954 - Proportion of vacuum fitted vehicles (in the fitted head) revised on the WR to take account of wagon weights)

 

December 1958 -Earliest reference I can find to maximum permitted speeds of freight trains -

Class C  - 60mph (reduced to 55mph in January 1959 Note *

Class D - 45mph

Class E -  35mph

Class F - 30mph

Class H -  25mph

Below H - 25 mph

Note * On the WR - Except for loaded ballast trains conveying plough brakevans which were reduced to 50 mph from (or before?) October 1960 

 

No other WR alterations until October 1960 when the WR went over to using numerical classification instead of the previous alpha system.

Full standard listing reissued in October 1960 (alpha based)  - no differences at all from the May 1950 classifications

 

Standard list of maximum permitted speeds for freight reissued in June 1962 -

Class 4 - 55mph (xcept trains specifically shown in the WTT to run at 60mph.   Continuous brake to be operative on at least 90% of the vehicles

Class 5 - 50mph Continuous brake to be operative on at least 50% of the vehicles

Class 6 - 45mph   Continuous brake to be operative on at least 20% of the vehicles 

Class 7 - 40mph. Note Bke

Class 8 - 35mph  Note Bke

Class 9 - 35mph  Note Bke

 

Note Bke  'Where fitted vehicles are required to be placed next to the engine and [the brake] coupled up, this will be shown in the appropriate Regional train loading Instruction.'

 

National standard list of headcodes/train classification was next reissued in March 1968.  The only substantial change was in respect of what had been Class J where the old Class j description of 'mIneral or empty wagon train' disappeared completely meaning that they would in effect probably run as Class 9 but could run as Class 8 if they were running as a through freight train.  I'm fairly sure the actual date of change to numerical classification nationally was sometime during either the latter half of 1962 or the first half of 1963 but for whatever reason it was not published in the General Appendix until 1968!

 

The list was reissued in May 1969 with a considerable number of changes to what was in the lower numbered classes plus the brake requirements were brought into line with the contents of the (National standards) in the Freight Train Loads Book tables.  The next reissue was October 1972.

 

Now the important thing to know at this juncture is that individual Regions could, and did, issue their own variations to and amendments of the national standard codes, for example the ER used something called 7* for Class 7 trains permitted to run at higher speed.  So you will - as Clive has quoted - find Regional documents falling between these principal dates making minor variations from the national standard

[RonnieS]

11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

December 1958 -Earliest reference I can find to maximum permitted speeds of freight trains -

Class C  - 60mph (reduced to 55mph in January 1959 Note *

Class D - 45mph

Class E -  35mph

Class F - 30mph

Class H -  25mph

Below H - 25 mph

Note * On the WR - Except for loaded ballast trains conveying plough brakevans which were reduced to 50 mph from (or before?) October 1960 

 

 

This is what I refereed to when I said "It may have been even more complex in that  weights and speed were involved in applying the head code?"

 

I remember discussing a photo (an empty stock train with a  H head code) at club and one suggestion was it had been allocated a path in the time table with a speed restriction?

 

 

[LMS2968]

I'd suggest it's more likely that, if ecs was running under Class H lamps, the brake wasn't operating on the stock for some reason. The speeds quoted by Mike were maxima and did not represent a mandatory minimum, in the same way a passenger train did not necessarily run at 90mph.

 

A train could be downgraded from its booked category if it failed to meet the requirements of that working: a C train might be reclassified as D if the required head end brake force could not be achieved. It would then run under Class D lamps and Class D restrictions would apply.

[The Stationmaster]

Interestingly on the GWR (and no doubt elsewhere) there were freight which changed headcode/classification enroute on a booked basis  Usually this reflected the reduction of the percentage of fitted vehicles enroute - for example (post WWII) the 19.30 Bristol East Depot - Manchester ran as Class C to Saltney Jcn then forward as Class D

Edited November 8, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

I'd suggest it's more likely that, if ecs was running under Class H lamps, the brake wasn't operating on the stock for some reason. The speeds quoted by Mike were maxima and did not represent a mandatory minimum, in the same way a passenger train did not necessarily run at 90mph.

 

A train could be downgraded from its booked category if it failed to meet the requirements of that working: a C train might be reclassified as D if the required head end brake force could not be achieved. It would then run under Class D lamps and Class D restrictions would apply.

I concur.  Empty coaching stock without a working automatic brake capable of being applied from the loco would need a goods brake van in which a guard was riding and on which the correct lamps were displayed.  Reasons might be that no loco was available with a compatible brake, or that the stock was withdrawn/condemned and being delivered to a disposal site or scrappie.  Speed would be up to that of the brake van, 60mph, but timings would be as for class H and would not require 60mph running unless the train was required to recover lost time.  There is no point in running ahead of time as you will only catch up to a train ahead and be checked, or have to wait until the destination yard is ready to receive you.