Freiwald Software (RR&Co) no longer available to UK buyers

[RFS]

45 minutes ago, melmerby said:

You still need a usb "dongle" (an out of date idea), which was sent from Germany.

 

Indeed, but supplying that is still a fraction of the £500+ cost of a new full licence. And once the user has been hooked, then there's the possibility of further chargeable upgrades to new versions etc. 

 

I really do find his attitude extraordinary - he must be a graduate of the Basil Fawlty School of Customer Relations!

[Nutford]

Like every coin there are two sides to this.

 

Firstly - Herr F. was advised the UK were leaving the EU, for sure, no doubts, on March 29th.

Then, he was informed that we would be leaving the EU, for sure, no doubts, on 31st October, failing which we may expect the deceased body of our PM to be found in a ditch. 

Now, he is informed that we are leaving the EU, for sure, no doubts, on Jan 31st.

Can't really blame him for not having a xxxx clue what is actually going to happen, because hey-ho we haven't got a clue, and nobody with an ounce of sense can truly believe a word that comes out of any of our politicians' mouths on the subject.

 

The problem for Herr F is he also doesn't know (because neither does anyone else) what tariffs, costs, paperwork etc will be needed by this ever-evolving date. And even if we do 'leave' the EU on 31st Jan, we don't really leave until this time next year, and then (should that even happen) we have no idea still what trading terms, paperwork etc will be required. It is not as simple as saying 'it's just like selling to the USA', because we don't know that for sure, and neither does he.

 

From that perspective, I at least have some sympathy for him thinking I really don't want all this uncertainty, I'll licence somebody else to sell it in the UK. But if he does that, he either takes less money, or allows them to charge more to (a) make a profit, and (b) sort out what the rules are. Thus the price goes up to the UK by 15%.

 

Now granted, I daresay some of his reaction is due to irritation and annoyance over Brexit. Funny that, there seems to be a fair few people here who have become, in one way or another, irritated and annoyed over Brexit.....   And yes, there is no logic or benefit or even sense to stopping sales to the UK altogether (over which this selling-on company who have an agreement to do so may be consulting their lawyers as I type); just as there is no logic or sense in allowing Republican voters to buy his items in any US state where they are the minority, while banning Democrat voters in any state where they have (what they no doubt see as the horror) of being governed by a Republican.

 

So is Herr F. acting out of frustration, irritation, and an irrational need to strike out at something/somebody because the world isn't as he likes it? Yep.

Is that right and fair? Nope.

Is there maybe a bit of arrogance here? Yep.

But are there a few others of us who sometimes feel like doing the same sort of thing? Daft and pointless though we may know it to be? You answer that for yourselves.

 

I think, from the tone of his comments, he has acted on impulse and annoyance, and does not actually want to stop selling to the UK. But can I suggest rather than personal attacks and insults a more reasoned argument, that shows some understanding of the issues and problems he sees (it doesn't matter whether they are real or perceived) may be both more fair and more constructive.

 

 

 

[melmerby]

7 minutes ago, Nutford said:

Like every coin there are two sides to this.

 

Firstly - Herr F. was advised the UK were leaving the EU, for sure, no doubts, on March 29th.

Then, he was informed that we would be leaving the EU, for sure, no doubts, on 31st October, failing which we may expect the deceased body of our PM to be found in a ditch. 

Now, he is informed that we are leaving the EU, for sure, no doubts, on Jan 31st.

Can't really blame him for not having a xxxx clue what is actually going to happen, because hey-ho we haven't got a clue, and nobody with an ounce of sense can truly believe a word that comes out of any of our politicians' mouths on the subject.

But there is no need to jump the gun until a firm date for the "actual" leaving has been decided, the price went up before any dates were "confirmed".

There has always been this period of transition after that leave date and which was expected to be approx 1 year (maybe more, maybe not)

Only at the end of that would there be any need to change the selling policy (if required), which gives plenty of time to set up alternative arrangements (again if required).

However I cannot see why he doesn't just sell direct as he does to other non EU states at an appropriate cost, once the time for VAT/Import duty change comes (again if required).

 

All he has done is make himself look an arrogant fool who has p*ssed off a loyal UK customer base.

Presumably he couldn't care less.

I won't buy from him again, I'll carry on with Gold 9. (upgraded from Gold 8, upgraded from Gold 7!)

If a V10 comes along he can stuff it.

 

 

 

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

You still need a usb "dongle" (an out of date idea), which was sent from Germany.

 

3 hours ago, RFS said:

 

Indeed, but supplying that is still a fraction of the £500+ cost of a new full licence. And once the user has been hooked, then there's the possibility of further chargeable upgrades to new versions etc. 

 

I really do find his attitude extraordinary - he must be a graduate of the Basil Fawlty School of Customer Relations!

Why not do what the overwhelming majority of software sellers do and provide an alpha-numeric key to unlock the software.

I've got several software suites of various types and they all do that.

Why does Herr Freiwald have to do it differently with an old fashioned method, using a device that can fail?

If something goes wrong using a key, you just reload the software and re-enter the key again (been there, done that, more than once.)

With his method you have to get a new USB dongle, if it stops working.

Edited December 19, 2019 by melmerby

[Nutford]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

'All he has done is make himself look an arrogant fool who has p*ssed off a loyal UK customer base.

Presumably he couldn't care less.'

I won't buy from him again, I'll carry on with Gold 9. (upgraded from Gold 8, upgraded from Gold 7!)

If a V10 comes along he can stuff it.

 

I think he will be able to live with that.

 

You are annoyed with him. He is annoyed with the EU/the UK/the world in general.

I get both of your annoyance. Both have an element of irrationality. His for obvious reasons.

But equally, since you don't want to buy from him again - why are you going off on one because you can't?

 

Is Herr F the fool for having a paddy that may cost him money (which maybe he doesn't need)?

Or you and others for chucking personal insults at him, the likely consequence of which will be he shuts down the English forum - which while you may not 'need' it, is certainly of potential use to you. As evidenced by your presence.

 

Insults just seems a poor way to establish yourself on the moral high ground.

I read and respect your comments and advice on other boards, and have no issue with you - just I don't think over-reaction to an over-reaction is a sensible way of getting along in the world. But maybe I'm just out-of-date.

 

 

 

 

 

[Andymsa]

50 minutes ago, Nutford said:

 

I think he will be able to live with that.

 

You are annoyed with him. He is annoyed with the EU/the UK/the world in general.

I get both of your annoyance. Both have an element of irrationality. His for obvious reasons.

But equally, since you don't want to buy from him again - why are you going off on one because you can't?

 

Is Herr F the fool for having a paddy that may cost him money (which maybe he doesn't need)?

Or you and others for chucking personal insults at him, the likely consequence of which will be he shuts down the English forum - which while you may not 'need' it, is certainly of potential use to you. As evidenced by your presence.

 

Insults just seems a poor way to establish yourself on the moral high ground.

I read and respect your comments and advice on other boards, and have no issue with you - just I don't think over-reaction to an over-reaction is a sensible way of getting along in the world. But maybe I'm just out-of-date.

 

 

 

 

 

There are many that can give testimony to herr friewalds attitude from traders to users, just look at his responses when upgrades between software versions are released he won’t even tell us what changes have been made so a user can make an informed decision to do that upgrade. Then there was a user who used it at exhibitions and he was insisting they had a demo license, good god who says no to free advertising utter madness. Now isn’t it strange that no other European traders seem to have issues, let’s take for example Modellbahn lippe, I asked them some time ago if they would stop selling to the uk and their reply was nothing would change. Now there going to be affected by the same rules and regulations post brexit. I wouldn’t say it’s an overreaction, just look at his latest post on this subject he says it’s not flouting EU rules, that to me is two fingers to the regulators. As been said all this has done is destroy an future purchases from a loyal customer base even with his attitude to his users people were prepared to upgrade, will they now i for one won’t. And just for info I have met him in the flesh and gives a very stand offish persona.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Andymsa

[Nutford]

 

52 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

There are many that can give testimony to herr friewalds attitude from traders to users, just look at his responses when upgrades between software versions are released he won’t even tell us what changes have been made so a user can make an informed decision to do that upgrade. Now isn’t it strange that no other European traders seem to have issues, let’s take for example Modellbahn lippe, I asked them some time ago if they would stop selling to the uk and their reply was nothing would change. Now there going to be affected by the same rules and regulations post brexit. I wouldn’t say it’s an overreaction, just look at his latest post on this subject he says it’s not flouting EU rules, that to me is two fingers to the regulators. As been said all this has done is destroy an future purchases from a loyal customer base even with his attitude to his users people were prepared to upgrade, will they now i for one won’t. And just for info I have met him in the flesh and gives a very stand offish persona.

 

'just look at his latest post on this subject he says it’s not flouting EU rules,'.  Well - is it? He is possibly correct that he is not selling to the UK. I don't know, for sure, if it is legal to use an agent to sell on your behalf in another country, but I suspect it is. But then I doubt you know for sure either. Indeed maybe he doesn't know for sure. So hardly 'two fingers to the regulators' I suggest. Indeed could be said you appear to be over-reacting, and making irrational and perhaps inaccurate comments because you are annoyed. Which, funnily enough, is just what he has done.

 

You don't like him. I daresay he may not be a very likeable chap, may indeed have a 'stand offish persona'. But does that make it OK from the sanctuary of your keyboard to chuck personal insults at him? What is the point? Do you imagine he will say 'Oh dear', Andymsa doesn't like me, I must change my ways'?

 

Or do you think he is more likely to say 'if all those English customers can do is personally insult me, I will close the English forum'. A consequence you may not care about, but which will definitely affect new purchasers of the product who use that forum for advice.

 

I am not supporting him or his actions. I don't know him, and have no reason to question your assertion that he isn't very likeable. But the complaint with him in this instance is in part at least that his actions are irrational and harmful both to himself and others. All I suggest is that those who choose, not to make valid argument or complaint, but to be insulting, are doing precisely the same thing.

 

It is a strange world, don't you think, when people see a need to argue with a comment which does no more than suggest personal insults are not the best way to change somebody's mind or behaviour, especially when they are likely to only make the situation worse for others. But like I say - perhaps I'm out-of-date.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Nutford
inaccuracy

[RFS]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

 

Why not do what the overwhelming majority of software sellers do and provide an alpha-numeric key to unlock the software.

I've got several software suites of various types and they all do that.

Why does Herr Freiwald have to do it differently with an old fashioned method, using a device that can fail?

If something goes wrong using a key, you just reload the software and re-enter the key again (been there, done that, more than once.)

With his method you have to get a new USB dongle, if it stops working.

 

Because with that method there's nothing to stop you from sharing the licence code with your mates. The dongle allows you to run the software on multiple PCs but only one at a time, eg club layout/home layout.

 

Freiwald has been exploring alternative methods which means he is aware of the issues with the USB dongle, but I'm sure is primary concern is to prevent piracy. Bear in mind that many users of the software use it on a railway room PC that is not connected to the internet, so any method involving online verification would not be available. 

[Andymsa]

46 minutes ago, Nutford said:

 

 

'just look at his latest post on this subject he says it’s not flouting EU rules,'.  Well - is it? He is possibly correct that he is not selling to the UK. I don't know, for sure, if it is legal to use an agent to sell on your behalf in another country, but I suspect it is. But then I doubt you know for sure either. Indeed maybe he doesn't know for sure. So hardly 'two fingers to the regulators' I suggest. Indeed could be said you appear to be over-reacting, and making irrational and perhaps inaccurate comments because you are annoyed. Which, funnily enough, is just what he has done.

 

You don't like him. I daresay he may not be a very likeable chap, may indeed have a 'stand offish persona'. But does that make it OK from the sanctuary of your keyboard to chuck personal insults at him? What is the point? Do you imagine he will say 'Oh dear', Andymsa doesn't like me, I must change my ways'?

 

Or do you think he is more likely to say 'if all those English customers can do is personally insult me, I will close the English forum'. A consequence you may not care about, but which will definitely affect new purchasers of the product who come here for advice.

 

I am not supporting him or his actions. I don't know him, and have no reason to question your assertion that he isn't very likeable. But the complaint with him in this instance is in part at least that his actions are irrational and harmful both to himself and others. All I suggest is that those who choose, not to make valid argument or complaint, but to be insulting, are doing precisely the same thing.

 

It is a strange world, don't you think, when people see a need to argue with a comment which does no more than suggest personal insults are not the best way to change somebody's mind or behaviour, especially when they are likely to only make the situation worse for others. But like I say - perhaps I'm out-of-date.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes it’s not wrong to use an agent, but it is wrong to charge more and a potential customer has called him out for it, his reaction speaks for itself. Will he close the English forum I don’t think so, think about it there are Australians, Americans and many other English speaking countries and there is google translate for the German one. I put a comparison for another trader so I’m not making frivolous statements.

 

please read what I said. I didn’t  say I didn’t like him, just that he is not very approachable. But I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Any comments made will not make one jot of difference to his decision making process either way.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Andymsa

[Andymsa]

49 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

Because with that method there's nothing to stop you from sharing the licence code with your mates. The dongle allows you to run the software on multiple PCs but only one at a time, eg club layout/home layout.

 

Freiwald has been exploring alternative methods which means he is aware of the issues with the USB dongle, but I'm sure is primary concern is to prevent piracy. Bear in mind that many users of the software use it on a railway room PC that is not connected to the internet, so any method involving online verification would not be available. 

There was a survey he was doing and I suspect this is the direction he could be going with licensing, the pitfulls as you say not all computers are connected to the internet, then what happens if the internet or his servers go down. Any serious hacker could probably crack the dongle in any case it’s not exactly CIA technology, I not condoning in any way illegal use of the software. Any software is open to abuse by what ever protections are in place.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Andymsa

[melmerby]

48 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

Because with that method there's nothing to stop you from sharing the licence code with your mates. The dongle allows you to run the software on multiple PCs but only one at a time, eg club layout/home layout.

 

 

Not so.

To get the software working you enter the code which is transmitted to the software company and registered.

Any extra attempt to register it will cause the system to cry foul.

That's how several of the software programs I have do it.

If you wish to run it on several PCs an extra small fee could be paid but still registered to the same person/address.

Kaspersky does it that way, 5 device licenses for one person are little more than a single device license.

 

[RFS]

23 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

To get the software working you enter the code which is transmitted to the software company and registered.

Any extra attempt to register it will cause the system to cry foul.

 

But doesn't that require your railway room PC to have an internet connection? I suspect Freiwald may be thinking of offering users a choice - dongle or internet-connected PC. 

 

And as far as VAT and tax rules are concerned, the key date is not when we leave the EU but when we leave the single market after the transition period. At the moment that's pencilled (inked?) in for the end of 2020. Freiwald didn't need to do anything till then, by which time clear rules about cross-border transactions would have been published. Same for all other businesses. 

[jamespetts]

How likely is it realistically that the next version will be released before the UK finally leaves the EU and the transition period ends such that the regulations no longer apply and he is free to sell to the UK at a higher price again?

[Andymsa]

21 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

How likely is it realistically that the next version will be released before the UK finally leaves the EU and the transition period ends such that the regulations no longer apply and he is free to sell to the UK at a higher price again?

I be very surprised if there is a version 10, if you look at how often interim releases are made now compared to a year ago.

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Not so.

To get the software working you enter the code which is transmitted to the software company and registered.

Any extra attempt to register it will cause the system to cry foul.

That's how several of the software programs I have do it.

If you wish to run it on several PCs an extra small fee could be paid but still registered to the same person/address.

Kaspersky does it that way, 5 device licenses for one person are little more than a single device license.

 

not a bad way to go, but what happens if he ceased trading and you later require to reinstall the software

[WIMorrison]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Not so.

To get the software working you enter the code which is transmitted to the software company and registered.

Any extra attempt to register it will cause the system to cry foul.

That's how several of the software programs I have do it.

If you wish to run it on several PCs an extra small fee could be paid but still registered to the same person/address.

Kaspersky does it that way, 5 device licenses for one person are little more than a single device license.

 

 

Keith

 

there are many ways to make the software secure, most of which use 2 factor authentication - you have one bit, the key that is issued (which is often an encoded version of your email address, the second part is supplied either by, as you suggest, an internet connection or by phoning a number (automated or personal) where you supply a code displayed on your screen and generated by the key you have. you are then provided with an unlock key and the software is licenced. 

 

This will not be unbreakable, but you can make it almost unbreakable and certainly commercially secure enough as the compute power required to crack the code would be significantly more than the value of the product.

 

Other tricks can be used, taking a snapshot of hardware which provides a unique machine key is one method, placing encrypted files hidden on drives, hiding codes within the BIOS - all of which will work without a dongle or internet access.

 

Most of the industry gave up on dongles 10-20 years ago because there are more secure (and cheaper) ways to protect software now. But when you are using a 20 year old codebase it is difficult to adopt current practices.

 

Iain

[melmerby]

46 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

not a bad way to go, but what happens if he ceased trading and you later require to reinstall the software

Exactly the same as a dead USB stick.

[Edwin_m]

14 hours ago, melmerby said:

But there is no need to jump the gun until a firm date for the "actual" leaving has been decided, the price went up before any dates were "confirmed".

There has always been this period of transition after that leave date and which was expected to be approx 1 year (maybe more, maybe not)

Only at the end of that would there be any need to change the selling policy (if required), which gives plenty of time to set up alternative arrangements (again if required).

 

If we had "crashed out without a deal", as seemed quite likely until only a few days before the October 31 deadline, then there would have been no transition period, because the transition period was part of the deal.   The same will apply at the end of 2020 if no longer-term trade deal is done in the meantime.  

11 hours ago, RFS said:

But doesn't that require your railway room PC to have an internet connection? I suspect Freiwald may be thinking of offering users a choice - dongle or internet-connected PC. 

Some kind of arrangement where the PC has to be temporarily connected to the internet for first registration?  

[Andymsa]

While I had a quite moment I compared all the European prices and guess what he charges non German countries more, admittedly only 10 euros more. But it’s still a breach.

[WIMorrison]

38 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

...

Some kind of arrangement where the PC has to be temporarily connected to the internet for first registration?  

 

not needed - lots of ways to protect software without an internet connection, but it does make it easier - though as I said earlier the codebase needs to be able to adopt current protection algorithms.

Edited December 20, 2019 by WIMorrison

[two tone green]

Sales to the UK are back on.

 

See post dated 6th Jan

 

https://www.freiwald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34284

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, two tone green said:

Sales to the UK are back on.

 

See post dated 6th Jan

 

https://www.freiwald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34284

 

A copy/paste of whatever was said will be needed for those who aren't Freiwald customers.   Then people can determine whether the arrangements are the fair and reasonable actions of a company they'd like to spend money with. 

 

 

[Andymsa]

I wonder if anyone from the uk will have faith to buy from him now, his actions have not exactly been positive from a customers view. 

[WIMorrison]

5 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

I wonder if anyone from the uk will have faith to buy from him now, his actions have not exactly been positive from a customers view. 

 

Especially when other companies are able to sell software globally at the same price to all customers yet their bases are with mainland Europe 

[Dungrange]

10 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

A copy/paste of whatever was said will be needed for those who aren't Freiwald customers.   Then people can determine whether the arrangements are the fair and reasonable actions of a company they'd like to spend money with. 

 

You just need to accept cookies - you don't need to be a customer.

 

However, all the last post states is "After a break we deliver again to the UK. Further information can be found under Information for users in the United Kingdom above."  The post above gives the the trading arrangements for Liechtenstein; Switzerland and the United Kingdom with a link to their Responsible partner company: Digital River GmbH (MyCommerce/ShareIT).