the future of the hobby

[woodenhead]

22 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The OP suggests physical club and his example certainly relates to one. It isn't irrelevant whether the club is physical or not - in the virtual world an alternative is only a click away. Leaving a physical club is much harder as there may well not be an alternative.

But the OP raised the issue what happens when the grumpy gits affect new members and I think the answer is they find something new which is where we are now with Youtube and Facebook.

 

RMWeb whilst newer facilitates the Model Railway club side because of it's BRM link.

 

Part of me wants to join a club where there is face to face interaction but I'm not sure a model railway club is for me, might need to be a Buddhist group or something similar.  But even in groups such as Buddhist ones there are still factions and intergroup rivalries, it seems even in a mindful environment someone still manages to be the grumpy one.

 

But at Warley this year there were definitely younger members of MRC running trains so all is not lost as long as you have a decent club nearby.

[mark axlecounter]

we Had it at our club years ago, where one of our longest members kept being off with the juniors. 
we on the committee told him if he keeps being the way he is he will have to leave. 
he said he would change them in the next breath said to one of the younger members “it’s your fault I got in trouble you little s*#t, now get out of my sight “ 

he was told to go there and then. 
he never came back. 
I understand you get a group of people in one place there is going to be conflict but not bullying. 
 

mark 

[Philou]

Well, I always said that I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member (to quote the Marx brothers). @woodenhead I'm glad I joined. I don't go regularly due to the distance - but I would give it a go, even if it's just the once to see what it's like - you never do know.

 

In returning to the OP's original posting - we did have a 'problem' but it wasn't the grumpy old men, it came from the older teenagers. They wanted to take the club (before my time) in a new direction by excluding the junior section!! The grumpy section told them where to go so they left and formed their own club!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[tigerburnie]

I don't join clubs anymore though I still have membership of a couple that I have been in for decades(not modelling), there is always divisions and those who think it's "their" club, apparently it's not allowed to offer them out on the car park anymore, so I keep out of 'em……………………..

[didcot]

As I've commented elsewhere on this forum I have been fortunate enough to have known some truly remarkable people who it has been a privilage to know and learn from. They have been instrumental in my early years and made me the person I am now !  I have also been on the receiving end of the grumpies!  Even now nearing 50 it's still the same. I can't commit to regular clubs or volunteering due to family and other commitments. When I do I'm the part timer. The old guys don't realise that it takes both parents to work and do the chores these days. It was fed, shed & bed for them. So I don't bother, I don't need the hassle. I get more fun doing things a home with the boys. I guess it's a sign of the times.

[Happy Hippo]

I recall reading letters in various model railway publications from modellers who were concerned about the future of the hobby.  This would have been back in the 1970's, so if model railways was on it's last legs then, it is having a very long drawn out expiration. 

 

The comment about the young lad operating under supervision, and was allowed to go because a parent was always present doesn't really paint the full picture.

 

Parental attendance is required if the club/group does not have adult members who are DBS checked.  Certainly the only reason one club I was a member of allowed junior members was because two of the members (I was one) were suitably 'qualified'.  It's not a case of having one member who is checked, but quite a few. there are reasons for this that I need no go into.  

 

I know of quite a few individuals both young and old, who do not want to undergo the checks, for whatever reason.

 

Sadly you also have to accept that the grumpy old man in your club, might just be a creepy old git as well.  You can't be too careful!

 

I have always gone out of my way to encourage youngsters into the hobby, and have been quite happy to answer questions about my layout by simply offering the individual the chance to operate it themselves. 

 

On one occasion a family who had drifted into the show for a quick look around spent over an hour with us.  Daughter and son both getting hands on and very much getting stuck into shunting a rake of wagons around.

 

Taking my live steam demonstration circuit to a show, I was greeted by another RM Webber.  His son, showed a keen interest, so after a quick briefing, he was driving and giving me a bit of a break.

 

One thing I never did was try to force my hobbies and pastimes onto my children, because that is the quickest way to make them lose interest.

 

As a result we do have a number of mutual interests, but none of them are railway related.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[didcot]

I guess one crumb of comfort is that there appears to be broader manufacturing base in the hobby, with one obvious exception. With the likes of Rail, Kernow & Hattons entering the manufacturing side of things. They along with the more established suppliers must have a finger on the pulse of supply and demand. Some of the smaller one man bands have disappeared, but the hobby must be pretty healthy to attract new manufacturing blood.

[rob D2]

Clubs will die out with their elderly membership.....younger generation doesn’t have the time or interest to attend something “ every Wednesday “.

 

growth will be “ celebrity YouTube modellers “ and organisation of “ meet-ups” where they will be signing hattons t shirts for £1.

 

My apocalyptic vision of the future.

[Nearholmer]

Clubs of one kind or another around our hobby are forming, flourishing, withering, and closing all the time, and since about 1909 have always done so at varying rates. Some last ‘forever’, some crash within a couple of years. Most are really friendly and a pleasure to attend, a few are elitist/cliquey/shambolic/full of grumpy old bnggers/run by a little Hitler.

 

And, grumpy old blokes have been a feature since 1909 also ....... but it’s only fairly recently that I became one myself.

 

The End of The Hobby is Not Nigh (the world I feel less confident about, having just listened to the news).

[Allegheny1600]

4 hours ago, sir douglas said:

 

I've been a member of four different clubs as I've moved around the country and in the majority of those clubs - if you chucked out the grumpy old men, you'd have no-one left!!

Even my first club, of which I was a member since I was a junior, was mainly dependent on older gents although, the last I heard did have a healthy junior membership - they would still need the GOM as the younger ones would never be able to afford the membership without them.

So what could you do?

Make sure your junior members aren't left alone with the principal grumps and keep a wary eye on them to make sure they don't bully anyone. In other words, warn your younger members not to take any notice of the grumps!

You'll never eradicate such behaviour but at least it should prepare them for life in the real world.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

11 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

I've been a member of four different clubs as I've moved around the country and in the majority of those clubs - if you chucked out the grumpy old men, you'd have no-one left!!

Even my first club, of which I was a member since I was a junior, was mainly dependent on older gents although, the last I heard did have a healthy junior membership - they would still need the GOM as the younger ones would never be able to afford the membership without them.

So what could you do?

Make sure your junior members aren't left alone with the principal grumps and keep a wary eye on them to make sure they don't bully anyone. In other words, warn your younger members not to take any notice of the grumps!

You'll never eradicate such behaviour but at least it should prepare them for life in the real world.

 

 

John, I hope I wasn't one of the grumpy ones.................

 

[Allegheny1600]

3 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

 

 

John, I hope I wasn't one of the grumpy ones.................

 

Good Lord, never!

In fact, you were one of the ones, if not "younger", then certainly "not old" at all!! 

[Robert Stokes]

I found the first post rather sad to read. The other members of the club could have had a quiet word with the person concerned and ask them to be a bit more pleasant towards the younger members.

 

Robert

(Genuine grumpy old man.)

[polybear]

Of course there is always the chance that the "Grumpy Old Git" actually isn't.  It could easily be that the younger member thinks he knows best and won't accept any different.  Not that I'm suggesting any teenager would ever fit that profile.

p.s. I've never been a member of a model railway club (other than EMGS and S4Soc.) and hopefully somewhere between young 'un and GOG (Grumpy Old Git, not Gauge 0 Guild) - though I'm getting ever closer to the latter team far too quick for my liking

[sir douglas]

i am sorry that i didnt include in the post that i dont necessarily approve of the "slinging". it was reposting what is already going around on facebook and adding my interpretation on it repostinbg from facebook could be a dangerous game as it it). i dont know any "grumpy old men" like this personally, so i dont have first hand experience

[sir douglas]

just remembered this, the scaring away newcomers doesnt just apply to younger people. For the last few years our club has had some new members of retired age (cant remember how many exactly) and a common theme is that they have first gone to a certain neighbouring club to join them (which i wont name) but have then come and joined us saying that they werent made welcome there

[Dungrange]

Starting with the original post, I think expelling someone from a club for being 'grumpy' is a rather dictatorial attitude.  As far as I am concerned, those with the 'sling him out' attitude are every bit as much a part of the problem as the 'grumpy old git'.  Whilst it's easy to seek to 'blame' the 'grumpy old git', if prospective members don't join, then the issue lies with the other members not being welcoming enough.

 

19 hours ago, t-b-g said:

It makes no difference how many grumpy old men there are in any club. You just need one or two who are welcoming and encouraging.

 

As a junior (14 year old) my dad took me along to a local club when we moved to the area. Most members didn't even acknowledge that we existed. Heads down, backs turned, that sort of thing.

 

Yet a couple of people came over, showed us round and talked to us about the various projects and what went on at the club and asked us what sort of modelling we were interested in. 

 

I suspect that as a hobby we have more than our fair share of what I could consider socially backwards people, and I'll include myself in that category.  No-one would describe me as 'the life and soul of the party' and when faced with work events or conferences, I tend to chat mainly to my team and those I already know (to some extent).  I don't actively seek to introduce myself to a group of complete strangers - I'm what you could probably call a poor 'networker'.  As such, it's all too easy to just ignore the visitor who has walked in the door and keep doing whatever I am doing or continue speaking to whoever I am speaking to - I'd say that's naturally who I am.  However, the problem is that if everyone in the club adopts that behaviour, it's not very welcoming and doesn't present a good image.  At our club, this was raised by a past secretary several years ago and since becoming club secretary myself, I now make it 'part of the job' to go and introduce myself to all visitors to the club and our club Chairman does likewise.

 

Asking what interests a visitor has - modelling scale(s), gauge(s), location(s), era(s), their level of expertise, skill sets / interests and occupation -  often makes it easier to introduce them to someone else in the club.  If said visitor is interested in the pre-grouping era, I'll introduce them to one member, but if they are interested in track and signalling, I'll introduce them to someone different.  Depending on how friendly the member that I'm introducing them to is, will to some extent govern the extent to which I continue to be involved in the conversation - just in case they think I've dumped them with the 'grumpy old git'.  However, on the whole, most of our members are reasonably friendly once 'the ice is broken' and a several visitors over the last few years have commented to me along the lines of 'seems a friendly bunch'.

 

Last year we recruited two new members, but we've also had three prospective members down at the club in recent weeks.  One has now given me a completed application form and has been given the club bank account details to set set up a Standing Order.  One has been twice in December and has indicated to me that he'll come back and a third visited for the first time on Thursday, but he also asked me about membership because he thought we were a friendly group and he has indicated that he'd like to come back.  I'll have to wait and see, but I got the impression that he will.  2020 may therefore be good year with regards recruiting new members at our club.

 

I think the important point is that there needs to be a number of members who are willing to actively make visitors feel welcome and although in our club that is perceived by some as a role for the Chairman and Secretary, everyone has a part to play.

 

Thankfully we don't have any members who could be described as particularly 'grumpy old gits'.  Some members are naturally more popular than others, but none are up for eviction and never will be whilst I am on the committee.

[Guest MM1991]

When I was a kid I joined a couple of clubs and was made to feel welcome, encouraged to help out etc etc which I did.  Only reason I stopped going to the clubs was lack of a bus route and cost (early 80's things were tough!)

 

I decided to join a club around 10 years ago, being more mature I was able to pick out the grumpy/abrasive/know-it-all members from the overall membership.  in the 4 years I was a member, a few new members joined, but many more came up for a night or 2 and never returned.  I spoke to a couple of them, separately, when I saw them at an exhibition a few months later, and was told they didn't feel welcome, both mentioned the persons.  

 

One of these people, who I can categorize as a know-it-all, was a long time member and acted as if the club was his.  He created an atmosphere which gradually became more and more toxic, resulting in quite a few long term members leaving the club.   Everything anyone done was wrong, any suggestion made was rubbished but no one tackled him, and to this day, he still rules the roost.

 

Due to the club losing long term members, some of them very, very good modellers, the club has went from being progressive, well regarded (great exhibition layouts) and well travelled to a club producing nothing more than trainsets, badly modelled, using ancient Hornby and Lima club stock.

 

There will always be tension in groups of people, personalities clash, but unless something is done to make the person causing the most trouble realise their ways, then nothing will change.  Unless someone acts inappropriately or violently then its very hard to ban them from a physical club.   

 

I think physical clubs are a great idea, for all age groups.  Face to face interaction is good for self esteem and confidence.  Far too many people live in a virtual world - not just young people (although they do seem to be the majority) and have very little social skills, which is damaging, not only to themselves but to society in general.  

 

Forums like this, and (some) You Tube videos are very helpful, but nothing beats seeing how things are done in front of you to pick up a skill, where someone can help you in real time when you can get something quite right.

 

 

 

 

[Dungrange]

19 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Clubs will die out with their elderly membership.....younger generation doesn’t have the time or interest to attend something “ every Wednesday “.

 

growth will be “ celebrity YouTube modellers “ and organisation of “ meet-ups” where they will be signing hattons t shirts for £1.

 

My apocalyptic vision of the future.

 

Thankfully your apocalyptic vision of the future is nothing like reality.  My club currently has about 25 to 30 members; the youngest is 17 and the oldest is, I think, just turned 80.  We have members in their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's.  In fact, if I were to line our members up in age order, I don't think there would be any gaps of more than about six or seven years.  One woman who visited our club with her son just before Christmas to ask for some advice on building a layout, commented on the great spread of ages in the club (and our 17 year old wasn't there that night).

 

The notion that the hobby is exclusively for old men isn't really true - as our membership demographics show.  Our membership has been growing in recent years (albeit very slowly), but new members don't have to be teenagers.  Some enter the hobby in middle age and our latest potential member falls into that category: in the older half of those of us who still go out to work - he'd got his first train set for Christmas.  That sparked the desire to seek out and engage with like minded people who can help and provide encouragement, which is what model railway clubs should be all about.  The reality is that there will be a continuing place for physical model railway clubs for that reason for many years to come.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Dungrange
missing word

[rob D2]

1 minute ago, Dungrange said:

 

Thankfully your apocalyptic vision of the future is nothing like reality.  My club currently has about 25 to 30 members; the youngest is 17 and the oldest is, I think, just turned 80.  We have members in their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's.  In fact, if I were to line our members up in age order, I don't think there would any gaps of more than about six or seven years.  One woman who visited our club with her son just before Christmas to ask for some advice on building a layout, commented on the great spread of ages in the club (and our 17 year old wasn't there that night).

 

The notion that the hobby is exclusively for old men isn't really true - as our membership demographics show.  Our membership has been growing in recent years (albeit very slowly), but new members don't have to be teenagers.  Some enter the hobby in middle age and our latest potential member falls into that category: in the older half of those of us who still go out to work - he'd got his first train set for Christmas.  That sparked the desire to seek out and engage with like minded people who can help and provide encouragement, which is what model railway clubs should be all about.  The reality is that there will be a continuing place for physical model railway clubs for that reason for many years to come.

I think you’d be the exception to the rule in this hobby. Take a look at any aerial view across somewhere like warley and it’s last of the summer wine mainly.

 

 

[Phil Parker]

5 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I think you’d be the exception to the rule in this hobby. Take a look at any aerial view across somewhere like warley and it’s last of the summer wine mainly.

 

 

 

I was at a show last year when someone grandly said that only old blokes we in the hobby so it was dieing. He gestured at the hall as if to prove his point. By chance it was full of youngish families, but he couldn't see them...

 

People have been predicting doom for over half a century and will still do so for another half.

[Guest MM1991]

12 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I think you’d be the exception to the rule in this hobby. Take a look at any aerial view across somewhere like warley and it’s last of the summer wine mainly.

 

 

But look at the demographic of those who are pushing things forward in this hobby.  Accurascale and Cavalex for instance.  They certainly aren't reaching for the summer wine.

[Dungrange]

4 minutes ago, MM1991 said:

One of these people, who I can categorize as a know-it-all, was a long time member and acted as if the club was his.  He created an atmosphere which gradually became more and more toxic, resulting in quite a few long term members leaving the club.   Everything anyone done was wrong, any suggestion made was rubbished but no one tackled him, and to this day, he still rules the roost.

 

This reminds me of the fact that sometimes the 'grumpy old git' isn't that old.  I recall speaking to a member of another club several years ago (we'd both been members of another club several years before that) about the recent (at that time) death of their club Secretary / Chairman, who was one of their club's founding members: I think he was in his early 50's at the time of his passing.  The deceased had been instrumental in setting up the club and saw it very much as 'his club': model railways was his life.  Having been in his home on several occasions, it was one of these houses where there were boxes of locomotives and rolling stock in every room: lounge, kitchen, bedroom as well as in his attic.  He was a very good modeller, but a bit of a perfectionist but a pretty poor communicator. 

 

Anyway, far from the club suffering from the loss of such a central character and skilled modeller, I was informed that the atmosphere in the club had actually improved with his passing.  The problem was that the deceased had no dependent family and lived on benefits for a lot of his life.  He had all day to sit and cut out individual roof tiles to make the 'perfect' building.  However, some of the other members, who had lots of family and work commitments preferred a much less time intensive technique, but were usually told rather bluntly that their efforts weren't up to his standards and such 'crap' wouldn't be going on 'his' club layout.  I think many members had found his attitude to their efforts rather demoralising.  However, without him, they found the rest of the club more willing to accept the compromises that they had made.  Perhaps the standards of their exhibition layouts fell, but everyone within the club seemed to be happier.

 

Maybe 'grumpy old git' should just be 'grumpy git'.

[Ian J.]

The hobby will survive, but it will change. What becomes of clubs is a different issue, as is the role and size of the 'manufacturers' (who are mostly now 'comissioners' for anyway).

 

As for me, perhaps quoting from my personal experience might give a view as to why some of us don't frequent clubs very often (if at all).

 

All my life I've found social interaction difficult, be it at primary, middle or secondary schools; in college; or in work. I have never felt confident talking to people I don't know (or barely know) in a social context. I find practical subjects much easier, because I can talk about the subject as long I have some knowledge of it.

 

However, I have noticed that most people like their conversations to shift and change constantly, particularly in the direction of humour and anecdote. I noticed early on in teenage and adult life that I couldn't do that properly and that other people tend to lose interest in talking to me as I'm not talking with them in the way they expect (this is despite many attempts to 'socialize' me by schools, college, and work). I have never been able to fix this 'problem'.

 

The upshot of this is that this has lead me to feel uncomfortable in club situations, as most clubs are as much about the socializing as they are about the subject. So going to a face-to-face club, while not daunting, leaves me feeling that I can't connect with others there and they can't connect with me, for the most part.*

 

My recent-ish diagnosis of Aspergers/Autism is partly due to this issue. It is a subtle and insidious condition for me, as most people can't see why I find it difficult to get on with people socially and think the answer is to just 'drop me in at the deep end and I'll be fine'. But that has never worked and never will, and I have grown tired of having to deal with it in every social and some non-social situations. Armed with the diagnosis, I have made a conscious decision not to 'socialize' with people at my current workplace, and have explained to them why. They and me are coping better for that decision, as I'm allowed to get on with my work and don't feel I have to 'fit in' beyond that.

 

I am currently a member of a railway club, but while I renewed for this year I am not at all certain that I will renew beyond as I don't get something out of it enough for me to stay. I visit very infrequently as it is.

 

* There are exceptions to every rule, and those who know me know who they are, and I'm glad of their willingness to engage with me even though I'm not the easiest person to get to know.

[woodenhead]

@Ian J. I know exactly how you feel and it's rather annoying/confusing how other people seem to find it so easy to mix and we can't.

 

The word I use is 'superficial', in that that is how I see relationships with people, they are acquaintances and not friends and the connection doesn't go much below the superficial.

 

The amount of effort involved in going beyond that seems insurmountable and when you do try it still doesn't seem to work.