Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[SamThomas]

On 13/02/2022 at 18:06, ChuffChuff said:

I feel really sorry for Hornby about this model

Why on earth would you feet sorry for a company that treats its (previously) loyal dealers like they do & continue to show a distinct lack of quality control ?

 

The people to feel sorry for are those that have spent their hard earned on models that have so many faults & have ended up dissapointed.

[benzino]

it seems more and more questionable as to why the model railway community is still willing to pay so much money for Hornbys chinesium trains. Is it the british heritage? the nostalgia? Not just the quality issues, they seem to have complete contempt for their existing customers. Accurascale etc prove qaulity products can come out of china (despite my misgivings about ccp products in general) but Hornby are clearly cheaping out even with chinese suppliers. no way is this model worth 500+ 

Edited February 15, 2022 by benzino

[PaulRhB]

27 minutes ago, benzino said:

it seems more and more questionable as to why the model railway community is still willing to pay so much money for Hornbys chinesium trains.
 

Because they are models they desire no one else is making. And even a 7/10 is better than nothing if it meets your personal value for money. I don’t run in sharp radii so the coupling distance didn’t bother me. I could sort out the caps and daft lighting as I saw it much easier than building from scratch. 

 

27 minutes ago, benzino said:

Not just the quality issues, they seem to have contempt for their existing customers.
 

And we are totally happy with the way other companies we buy from treat consumers sometimes? Ok we decide to ‘deal with the devil’ occasionally because we are all crass consumers sometimes   I’m more disappointed in their attitude to quotas continuing so long, since 2016, which suggests lack of respect to shops to just make a decision and instead try to fluff over it. 

 

27 minutes ago, benzino said:

Accurascale etc prove qaulity products can come out of china (despite my misgivings about ccp products in general) but Hornby are clearly cheaping out even with chinese suppliers.
 

So do Hornby when they get it right. Their Terrier is accepted as good as the Rails on +- certain details on each. 
We don’t know they are cheaping out, it might just be poor quality control or just bad luck on a faulty batch of components. We will probably never know. I’d rather have constructive feedback and hope the furore caused management come to their senses much like Apple and Samsung did with deliberate poor battery life and spontaneous combustion respectively. 

 

 

27 minutes ago, benzino said:

NO way is this model worth 500+ 

Personal opinion is fine but that’s down to each of our perceptions of value. Do you desire an APT?
To me it is value, even with its faults, as it’s the right shape and looks like the ones I saw in the early 80’s. I can deal with its flaws to my satisfaction. The other options are scratchbuild / hack the older one and there are other models I’d rather spend £2000 of my time on  

Eighteen years ago I bought two Diecast and brass US k27’s by MMI knowing the electronics were crap and so were the pickups. I knew then it was unlikely anyone would do them again anytime soon and no one has. They got fettled and are still treasured models although their manufacturer is long gone. They were less than half the price of brass equivalents so for a couple of hours and a few parts I figured £100 to fix them was by far better value. 

Realistically no one else will touch it for years now so sitting there saying I’ll wait for the Accurascale one is likely to be fruitless so a little deal with the devil happened. In the meantime for a 40+ year desire for a decent model I’m happy with it but quite happy to be honest about its failings which I perceive personally as technical. 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by PaulRhB

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

 

And we are totally happy with the way other companies we buy from treat consumers sometimes? Ok we decide to ‘deal with the devil’ occasionally because we are all crass consumers sometimes   I’m more disappointed in their attitude to quotas continuing so long, since 2016, which suggests lack of respect to shops to just make a decision and instead try to fluff over it. 

 

To answer that for myself and myself alone, I have not been happy with the way I’ve been treated a couple of times and I won’t deal with those particular Devils. I don’t like the way Hornby acts sometimes but that wouldn’t put me off buying an item I want. What does make me hesitate about pre-ordering new items is the poor quality of some Hornby items. The Terriers were good but there have been too many models from Hornby recently which are a let down. In many cases, it’s a matter of what could have been a very good model failing in some respect. Light bleed, melting roof, odd colours and poor assembly. The Devil is in the detail, detail, detail.

[SamThomas]

7 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Eighteen years ago I bought two Diecast and brass US k27’s by MMI knowing the electronics were crap and so were the pickups. I knew then it was unlikely anyone would do them again anytime soon and no one has. They got fettled and are still treasured models although their manufacturer is long gone. They were less than half the price of brass equivalents so for a couple of hours and a few parts I figured £100 to fix them was by far better value.

With respect Paul you are not really comparing apples with apples.

 

There is a world of difference between a mass market RTR model that should "do what it says on the tin" & a low volume, somewhat, in the eyes of the UK market model. (I have no knowledge of MMI so if I'm wrong stand to be corrected).

 

So, some people are quite happy to shell their hard earned out for an expensive model that may or may not operate correctly out of the box. Again, some people have the skills to enable the models to operate as they shouldhave done in the first place from the manufactures.

 

For goodness sake stop accepting shoddy products & send them back, the responsibility lies with the manufacture & the more they get back the more likely they are to actually do something about it. I certainly would not accept it & have never, ever had issues even approaching these from European Manufactures in decades of modelling.

[Mr_Tilt]

21 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

You need to get someone on the APT group to edit and maintain the Wikipedia site as that’s where they likely pull it from. 
 

 

I've tried numerous times, on the various Wikipedia 'tilting train' sites, but apparently I have to provide 'source references' for making such a statement.

 

It seems the OP there either doesn't have to do that  or they're believing the rubbish article in The Economist which seems to be the REAL source of this false news.

[Mr_Tilt]

21 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Anyone can update a wiki. That is its strength & weakness.

I have removed the statement claiming the tilt technology was sold to Fiat, but I am sure someone will re-add it before long. 

 

How is it you can do that, and I can't? I've given up with the autocratic people on Wikipedia, they say I can't post anything without having a Wikipedia page of my own, and of course I'm not allowed to post it.

 

A ridiculous situation!

Edited February 16, 2022 by Mr_Tilt

[pwr]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

For goodness sake stop accepting shoddy products & send them back, the responsibility lies with the manufacture & the more they get back the more likely they are to actually do something about it. I certainly would not accept it & have never, ever had issues even approaching these from European Manufactures in decades of modelling.

 

 

I agree with you Sam we should send them back. As consumers we have the right if the product is faulty to have it repaired or replaced - certainly in the first twelve months. However if it fails at say 6 months and you take it back to the store and ask for a replacement netiher the dealer nor Hornby will have any beause of these short production runs. You are then faced with either you or the dealer sending it back to Hornby but if they have no spare bodies say because a hole is melted in it because of a burnt out capacitor what then?

 

I have ordered some capacitors to repalce mine as I am confident enough to do the job. I don't wan't to send it back to Hornby if it fails and risk the post (yes I know you can get tracked delivery).

 

As others have pointed out the recent crop of new products is pretty poor - W1 as another example. The cost cutting may be down to the factory substituting poor components. Given Hornby will have agreed a fixed price for a batch at the outset, if costs continue to rise as they do the manufactirer could easily substiture cheaper components if Hornby did not specifiy exactly what was to be used as part of the specification. If they had used a product outside this spec then they would face the cost of replacement, if not rectification of faults will then surely lie with Hornby as the manufacturer will have spplied to spec.

 

Paul R

[PaulRhB]

56 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

With respect Paul you are not really comparing apples with apples.

 

There is a world of difference between a mass market RTR model that should "do what it says on the tin" & a low volume, somewhat, in the eyes of the UK market model. (I have no knowledge of MMI so if I'm wrong stand to be corrected).

Ok why shouldn’t I expect a low volume model at a premium price to achieve the same quality as one made in the thousands? If anything it should be easier to do quality control

MMI was the equivalent of Dapol’s black label range by an established manufacturer. I’m paying the extra to make that small volume viable, because of the niche subject, and it sits between the mass rtr and very limited hand built brass rtr. 

 

56 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

 

So, some people are quite happy to shell their hard earned out for an expensive model that may or may not operate correctly out of the box. Again, some people have the skills to enable the models to operate as they shouldhave done in the first place from the manufactures.

I quite agree it should work and if it had burnt a hole in the roof or the motor failed it would indeed have gone back. But with the uncertain supply problems I would be dubious of them having the spares to replace it so for minor irritations I decided to fix them myself, as I did with the silly faults on early Heljan MW’s but list the errors and solution to help others and feedback to Hornby. You’ll find my posts offer an alternative on simple fixes not you should do this instead. Equally I’m realistic about the comparisons to Accurascale etc that they are not going to touch this now Hornby have done it so this will be the only option. If I send it back and they turn round and say sorry we won’t have those spares until the new batch arrive this summer I have £1000 worth of bits sat waiting for months. 

 

56 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

For goodness sake stop accepting shoddy products & send them back, the responsibility lies with the manufacture & the more they get back the more likely they are to actually do something about it. I certainly would not accept it & have never, ever had issues even approaching these from European Manufactures in decades of modelling.

Ok it’s not shoddy, apart from the capacitors none of the tweaks mine has had were necessary to make it run well and as I’ve said the shape and look is good. If I couldn’t take it apart I would have contacted Mr K to ask what they were going to do about this before running it again, which I encouraged those with failures to do and has been done. 
On European manufacturers,
I have sent back a Tillig loco three times to be fixed and it came back three times with the same fault before being replaced! Heljan ignored my email suggestions on fixes to the 009 MW but they did modify the second batch. Bemo didn’t respond direct but fortunately their UK agent sorted the only partly painted bodyshell supplied, (which I fitted myself to save sending it back to Germany). LGB supplied a loco with several missing detail parts and various friends with coaches with seized roller bearings and a loco with its half kg weight free floating inside that demolished the internals and damaged the body, none isolated examples. KISS supplied locos where the chassis metal gassed and self paint stripped. Trainline45 supplied locos where the gears poorly meshed and Brawa made a loco that you couldn’t run without bits falling off due to poor gluing and one part melted if you turned on the smoke generators if the generator wasn’t perfectly aligned!
So several major European players have supplied similarly poor quality control and design issues out of the box but with the added complication of sending back to Europe so again where possible we asked for parts to fit ourselves as postage was going to cost £30-60 for some of the G scale stuff. 
 

I’ve not been letting Hornby off the hook I’ve been scathing of their attitude and partly because of that lack of faith the things I can fix myself I chose to do so  

[97xx]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

For goodness sake stop accepting shoddy products & send them back, the responsibility lies with the manufacture & the more they get back the more likely they are to actually do something about it. I certainly would not accept it & have never, ever had issues even approaching these from European Manufactures in decades of modelling.

 

Exactly.

 

This is an expensive item, and there appears to be a significant number with faults, and/or serious safety issues. Hornby possibly do care, but the actual producers do not.

 

A parallel here is that if you want a multimeter you can buy a Won Hung Lo branded one for £20 that will be fine on ELV (e.g. 12V model railway work) but be crap quality and more seriously will lack any adequate protection and may quite literally blow your hand off if you have a mishap with it on 240V mains. But there is no possible come back. Yes, it was UL and CE labelled, but that's just screen print on the case.

 

Contrast with a Fluke multimeter. Even though some of their cheaper ones ARE made in china, they apply rigorous quality control and having had them open I can attest that they're designed and made well, and consistently. And if it did go bang Fluke would have a massive problem. 

 

This APT is a Fluke-priced item with Won Hung Lo build. Hornby are simply NOT applying adequate QC, and sadly as said above if no-one sends this rubbish back, nothing will change.

 

And why would/should it? If Hornby actually have any quality specs with their manufacturers, us not pushing defective products back leaves Hornby believing that all is well, and the manufacturer doing what they do best - cheating and getting away with it.

 

Yes, it's not unique to china, but it is absolutely endemic there. I work with electronics goods and the truly horrifying examples roll in day after day.

Edited February 16, 2022 by 97xx

[micklner]

As already said send it back . If a maker cant replace or design build and use quality components why would anyone put up with what is basically very overpriced "pretty" junk.

 

Hornby are fully aware of all the recent faults and how many of their recent  products ( all they are now a design team and make nothing themselves at all ) are either failing , falling to bits on arrival or soon afterwards .

 

I have yet to see any public response from them for anything so far how bad is that. That attitude wont change until either people stop buying their products or everything is returned to them for replacement or repair. Kohler publicy spouting about their quality products design etc on TV programmes does'nt help either.

 

Another product of limited issues being made, along with screwing dealers etc etc which Hornby use as excuses for everything.

[RedgateModels]

9 minutes ago, 97xx said:

Contrast with a Fluke multimeter. 

 

Still running my 77 without issues (and my Margate APT-P  )

 

Expensive? yes - relatively so? no. Toy trains have always been costly, before the Lines brothers they were limited to the children of very wealthy parents. In my life the APT was way beyond the Christmas budget so had to be secured by committing the next year's birthday money too. Funnily enough the cost of a 5 car pack strikes the same chord with our family finances today - £300 ish being the upper limit for the main prezzy from Santa for the kids.

 

I don't think the APT is a "premium product" it's made and priced in line with the rest of the Hornby range. I do believe that Hornby should issue a recall on the NDM's however.

[RedgateModels]

Here's something to throw in to the discussion:

 

on the TV program Hornby made a last minute change to the spec of the motor to make it run faster. Could this have affected the performance of the suppressor capacitor - should this, or was this changed from a standard one?

[stovepipe]

I'm in the send it back camp too - mine was faulty on arrival, and it went straight back for refund.

 

If the price hadn't been jacked up twice, and the coaches didn't have massive capacitors in them, and if the couplings weren't deformed, and the build quality was better, and it had worked out of the box, I might have kept it...I suppose.

 

But I'm not paying top dollar for a curate's egg, and I'm a lot happier with the cash back in my wallet. If I decide to spend it, it might go on the Rapido APT-E, or I might just possibly wait and see if the second run addresses some of the issues - though that is no doubt wishful thinking on my part.

[PaulRhB]

 

ok you asked . . . 3 stars 

 

”Well first off not responding to questions about if a second powered NDM was required throughout 2021, then the coaches being sat here for three months before the set arrived wasn’t great, a lot of money with no way of using the model. 
Then the set arrives and we have two capacitor issues, the massively visible one in the coach seating area and the number of motor suppression capacitors that have failed documented on Rmweb, including one that melted the bodyshell!
Super looking but some silly shortcuts in design, testing and production that look like afterthoughts. Hardly the ‘detail, detail, detail’ your tv show bangs on about. I shouldn’t have to fix a rtr model, however easy the fixes are.”

 

 

I think that’s an honest review. 

[rob D2]

And here in lies the massive value of RMweb, getting opinions straight from the horses mouth before making purchases .

 

It’s just a shame anyone has to take the hit , so that others can see what a product is like 

[SamThomas]

PaulRhB,

I have stated elsewhere that I too have had a couple of issues with HO European manufactures such as a Heljan Nohab (no help from Heljan) & a Brawa Ludmilla.

However, these went back to the manufacture as all faulty goods should & were both eventually replaced with new items & then eBayed on & since then nothing further bought from either stable no matter how much I desired their offerings.

 

Forum.

All the time people are prepared to accept faulty goods there will be no improvement. Until manufacture returns departments start sinking under the weight of returned models those manufactures will do nothing about it.

 

Very disappointing for some people, but the only way the situation will improve is to lay the evidence of poor quality control/design at the manufactures door literally.

 

I doubt if reviews*** will have any effect - after all, it's just a series of "0's" & "1's" on a website & nothing tangable - what will have an effect is a Royal Mail van full of returns.

 

*** No matter how scathing.

[Markwj]

I have had the same email as Paul but have not completed as I have had no issues as yet with my set although I do intend to remove the capacitors in the power cars to avoid an issue. I don't feel I can fill in the form based on others experience. I did think I have never had this with a Hornby direct purchase before and wonder if its coincidence or an attempt to find out how many have had issues with this model without shouting from the rooftops there is an issue!

[SamThomas]

8 minutes ago, scumcat said:

Sam Thomas

My Stephen’s Rocket went back twice because of faulty wiring. It was fixed and now runs perfectly. I have had no issues with my APT it has ran perfectly since day one after I corrected a faulty bit of track that needed fixing anyway. I removed the capacitor as precaution but it never showed any sign of problems before I did. I think there are people out there with good models who are happy so you don’t speak for everyone.

I've no doubt that there are people who are happy with their models & human nature being what it is those who have an issue shout the loudest.

However, you are clearly not 100% happy with your model - otherwise why would you have removed the capacitors.

Who said I was "speaking for everyone" ?

[PaulRhB]

10 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

PaulRhB,

I have stated elsewhere that I too have had a couple of issues with HO European manufactures such as a Heljan Nohab (no help from Heljan) & a Brawa Ludmilla.

However, these went back to the manufacture as all faulty goods should & were both eventually replaced with new items & then eBayed on & since then nothing further bought from either stable no matter how much I desired their offerings.

 

Yes Sam but if I’d followed the same path I’d then have sold all my Bemo, LGB etc on the basis of one or two faulty models. I don’t have the luxury with RhB or HSB modelling to go to other manufacturers so in each case I tried to engage with the manufacturer by sending back, multiple times with Tillig, a faulty model because I couldn’t fix them myself. 
So the APT fills a similar niche subject where I’m stuck with a limited market to buy a model from and I have had feedback from some manufacturers to thank me for info and one small one was especially grateful as a simple fix saved wholesale returns. I try to be constructive with what’s wrong and feed it back. I suggested those with burnouts ask for a response too to get a public acknowledgement from Hornby. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

 

Forum.

All the time people are prepared to accept faulty goods there will be no improvement. Until manufacture returns departments start sinking under the weight of returned models those manufactures will do nothing about it.

 

Having talked to several people in the know I do know reasonable critique gets through. I know that at least one magazine editor that has passed on such concerns direct to the manufacturer and said you need to deal with this or we will have to report the lack of response. 

 

10 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

 

Very disappointing for some people, but the only way the situation will improve is to lay the evidence of poor quality control/design at the manufactures door literally.

 

And I’ve agreed with sending them back before but equally I see no reason to waste time going to the post office and sending back at my expense of time at least when I can fix it in a couple of mins myself and run the train that day rather than two weeks later. There’s a huge wealth of fixes around the net for products from most manufacturers. And a lot of people choose to fix pickups, repaint dodgy colours etc because they can fix it without waiting or in pure hope. 

 

10 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

 

I doubt if reviews*** will have any effect - after all, it's just a series of "0's" & "1's" on a website & nothing tangable - what will have an effect is a Royal Mail van full of returns.

 

*** No matter how scathing.

Better than saying nothing at all though  
Ultimately how you choose to fix an issue is personal choice and I don’t see a utopian world where every model is perfect because I know how quality control samples work. They will continue to make errors as it’s part of the human condition and we are well protected by retail rights if we choose to take the return and fix route so I see no problem with either solution. 

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, Mr_Tilt said:

 

How is it you can do that, and I can't? I've given up with the autocratic people on Wikipedia, they say I can't post anything without having a Wikipedia page of my own, and of course I'm not allowed to post it.

 

A ridiculous situation!

 

I am not sure. I created my account several years ago to correct something else (probably rules of billiards because I noticed something wrong). Maybe they've changed their policies but honour older accounts?

I would prefer to post something correct about APT's tilt but I don't know very much & would rather not be adding things I am unsure about.

[Wolf27]

Other side of the coin, those who are happy with their APT, probably choose not to shout about for fear of being branded fanboys. Trust me, that happened. Although in this case it was being branded as Hornbys White Knight.

[SamThomas]

Paul, who suggested that you sell all your Bemo,LGB etc ? Not me !

The Heljan & Brawa Locomotives were the first & last ones I purchased from that stable. Had the manufactures been a littl more pleasant to deal with they would maybe have benefitted from further business.

 

I have had good dialogue with smaller manufactures in the past. However, larger outfits have absolutely no excuse to get it wrong or to fob off end users with shoddy goods &/or after sales service.

 

It is my opinion that you can get as much feedback to a manufacture as you want, be it via phone calls, emails, face to face, magazines, anyway you can think of but it remains just words - for the full effect the manufacture needs to have the problem actually sitting on his desk so that whatever he does with it is his problem & it will cost him money to sort out.

 

You are fortunate that you have the necessary skills to fettle/repair brand new stock - not everyone is either capable of doing so, wants to sees it down to them to fix issues that should not have been present.

 

Just imagine how the QC would go up if all the defective models were returned.

 

[SamThomas]

2 hours ago, Wolf27 said:

Other side of the coin, those who are happy with their APT, probably choose not to shout about for fear of being branded fanboys. Trust me, that happened. Although in this case it was being branded as Hornbys White Knight.

Personally, I would love to hear from those who are happy with their APT's, but only from those whose models as they should be out of the box.

 

[PaulRhB]

27 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Paul, who suggested that you sell all your Bemo,LGB etc ? Not me !

The Heljan & Brawa Locomotives were the first & last ones I purchased from that stable. Had the manufactures been a littl more pleasant to deal with they would maybe have benefitted from further business.

Well if you as you said twice never buy again from a manufacturer you’re assuming they’re all duff in future? So what do you do if a later model from a previously trusted maker is duff like the examples I gave or Hornby?
I had a desire to model the HSB so I had three options, an ancient Kehi model the quality of 70’s Hornby, Tillig at €300 or Weinert Modelbau at €750 so I chose the middle ground and yes I put up with issues more than I would with the WM option because I could literally have two for less than the price of one   Take the Tillig 2-10-2, I got three good ones then number 4 was an absolute dog. Even when dismantled there was nothing obviously split, tight or broken yet it derailed and randomly went slow. So I knew they could be good but tried to understand why this one was useless. It meant if the others failed in the future outside of warranty I’d know how to fix it or I could get spares in for the future as they probably won’t be available in ten years if I know certain parts are prone to fail long term. Note the number of replacement gears people make for older Farish, Bachmann USA etc. 

 

I fully appreciate many won’t or don’t feel confident to find problems but I also think those of us who have tinkered with locos for thirty of years plus can help the manufacturer improve them by identifying faults and fixes. Why waste their time when you can point out where to look, if you’re lucky they might even thank you with a voucher, or as Tillig did once I got past the intractable repair dept, sent me some catalogues and spares. The effort was worth it and I made similar critiques online with people telling me to just send them back before that  

 

44 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Just imagine how the QC would go up if all the defective models were returned.

Or we might never see the model again? I waited for a second batch of the Adams Radial hoping batch two would fix the issues and include models in the SR olive and it’s never happened  

 

So it looks like APT sold well enough to get batch two ordered and why not put the fixes in public so batch two can be judged against that? It’ll be indefensible if this isn’t addressed and we know they are aware because of the ones already returned. It worked with the Heljan MW even if they didn’t acknowledge my direct comments. I frankly can’t see the point of returning my NDM’s to have capacitors changed and risking a cycle of damage in the post on top when I can remove the issue myself. If they are indeed as poor as you say then plenty enough will go back compared to the few of us fixing them. I know I’m in the minority but why let them take it back swap a capacitor and not look into the deeper issues? We put them here and Andy and others in the business see the issues and discuss it with Hornby etc even if we don’t see a Newsnight style grilling

 

So I suggest you send yours back and hope it is fixed, I know mine is. 
 

Five or ten years down the line I might be fixing these for friends when no spares are available so it’s useful info in my file purely for the future. In the last few months I’ve had Marklin Z gauge, ETS O gauge and two old Hornby and Bachmann locos across the bench to be fixed, spares are expensive if you can find them so modifications were essential. I’ve done lots over the years to keep mates models going and acquired a reasonable supply of bits that can be used with a bit of work. 
Some of us quite enjoy finding out how they work or why they don’t