New Hornby Rocket

[PaulRhB]

6 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Someone's going to get burnt:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?

as he said he would

 

On 06/12/2020 at 14:46, Pete47401 said:

 

I might knock them out at £90 for a set of 3.

As the seller id at the top

Well I hope any profits go to restoration as it suggests, at least something good might come from it. 

 

[stewartingram]

On 12/12/2020 at 19:42, stewartingram said:

I purchased the standard version when it came out. The loco suffered a stutter, so it is at present dismantled for a modification/rectification. However I noticed about a week ago that one of the coaches had 2 buffers missing (from new.

I've emailed Hornby customer services (on Thursday) but have yet to receive a response. Does anyone have a couple spare (perhaps from a conversion project?) or have any suggestions for a source of replacements?

 

I had a reply from Hornby this morning, re: missing buffers. Just to confirm how many I need and my address so that they can send some. Good news, thanks Hornby.

 

Stewart

[e30ftw]

Hi I have a few questions with regard to Rocket and appropraite rolling stock.

 

What would a typical rake that rocket would pull? I.e how many normal and how many 3rd class coaches would it pull?

 

Was there a goods wagon that was used as well?

 

Had the brake van yet to be invented ?

 

Is there good historical documentation on the make up of a typical train?

[Rudititanic]

17 minutes ago, e30ftw said:

Hi I have a few questions with regard to Rocket and appropraite rolling stock.

 

What would a typical rake that rocket would pull? I.e how many normal and how many 3rd class coaches would it pull?

 

Was there a goods wagon that was used as well?

 

Had the brake van yet to be invented ?

 

Is there good historical documentation on the make up of a typical train?

 

If considering the 1930s replica than three of each coach would be about right.  If meaning the 1829 original though then the stock is largely inaccurate, both in design and in formation - Rocket (heavily rebuilt) only ever being used with goods after Rainhill.  Although to be taken with a pinch of salt, trains would have been somewhat like this: 

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The main problem is that if the model Rocket is taken as portraying the 1829 era, then the correct rolling stock would be what it hauled during the Rainhill Trials.

 

I believe that the Rocket had already been modified, cylinders lowered, etc. By the time that the L&MR opened in 1830... and Rocket ran down Mr. William Huskisson.

 

By 1831, the Planet class were running....

 

The two coaches so far made by Hornby are both based on “replicas” made in 1930 by the LMS for the Centenary of the opening of the L&MR, and/ or 1979 for Rocket 150, the 150th Anniversary of the Rainhill Trials.
 

The model locomotive is also most likely based on one of the replicas built...

 

 

 

https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/stephensons-rocket-rainhill-and-rise-locomotive

 

[PaulRhB]

9 hours ago, Rudititanic said:

Rocket (heavily rebuilt) only ever being used with goods after Rainhill.

 

8 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

 

I believe that the Rocket had already been modified, cylinders lowered, etc. By the time that the L&MR opened in 1830...

Info from Science Museum book by Gibbons ‘Stephenson’s Rocket and the Rainhill Trials’ & Bailey & Glithero’s book on the history & engineering of Rocket says that’s not definite. As per my post back in January it’s open to speculation but no hard facts either way apart from an engraving showing it in original condition on one of the pre opening tours. The book contains a comprehensive list of known dates of modifications but still cannot clarify that  

 

On 11/01/2020 at 17:18, PaulRhB said:

The coaches modelled ran at the opening but the new improved Northumbrian type included many improvements such as ashpan and smokebox and while they ran alongside each other its not clear when Rocket was upgraded to include the same improvements. Rocket was relegated to lighter work as the Northumbrian type were more powerful and it was used on construction trains for the extended line. It’s known it suffered several minor accidents and had modifications then so it might be that this is when it was upgraded. 

So it is possible it ran on the opening day in near original condition as the engravings, p34, of it hauling the pre opening tour trains show it in original condition. It’s almost certain though that Rocket was then relegated to lighter duties so the authenticity for this train was probably a matter of days or weeks? 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by PaulRhB

[Ruffnut Thorston]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephenson's_Rocket
 

Quote

Such are the changes in the engine from 1829 that The Engineer magazine, circa 1884, concluded that "it seems to us indisputable that the Rocket of 1829 and 1830 were totally different engines".[27]

 

[PaulRhB]

The problem is there is no evidence to support it, “it seems” is all they can say without actual reference, and the known dates of the accident were after opening. The tour of the pre opening train engraving is likely to have been done from an actual sketch and it’s unlikely they changed the cylinder positions. Unfortunately there are no engravings identified as Rocket at the opening to support either version. 
As Bailey & Glithero say there’s conjecture for both but no proof. 
The opening was in September 1830 and the recorded accident at Chat Moss was in October 1830, (p3 of the NRM book). This is when they say the dome was added along with several other fittings being modified. 

Further to this the second accident occurred in Jan 1831 and this is when they say the motion appears to have been lowered from 38° to 8° and the cylinders swapped over. 
 

Edited December 16, 2020 by PaulRhB

[Nile]

Two books that may be of interest:

https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/The-Liverpool-and-Manchester-Railway-Hardback/p/18127

https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Locomotives-of-the-Liverpool-and-Manchester-Railway-Hardback/p/18771

 

[e30ftw]

ah thanks very much,

 

i didnt know it was oudated by the time of opening and it appears it wouldnt have gone in to service as per the model, or at least open to debate.

Was the livery made much brighter for the 30's replica? in the above picture of the formations it looks a much more subdued yellow, unless the painting has faded a lot with age. I will have to purchace the books recomended above.

 

I was having an idea to display rocket in a period diorama complete with fish belly rails but this looks like it would not be very accurate unless depicting the actual trails.

[PaulRhB]

The replica only represents the 1930 parade accurately due to the coaches being based on the original rather than truly accurate. The loco colour is a matter of speculation as only the engravings of the trial give a clue and a canary yellow would be possible to match the stagecoach derived coaches. 
As I noted above the NRM archives and survey that the Rocket study book used suggest it lasted until October 1830 in original condition and then from Oct 1830 to Jan 1831 in the condition modelled with dome added and high inclined cylinders. Post 1831 the cylinders were definitely lower but the evidence is based on notes and letters describing it rather than an actual works record. 

[PaulRhB]

I measured the couplings and have added 1x1mm neodymium magnets to the coach bottoms and 20mm of 1mm chain with another magnet glued to each end with epoxy. You have to be pretty violent to bounce them apart, fine with 6 coaches 

I glued them on a freezer bag so I could just peel it off once it set. I’ve now ordered some blackened chain. 
 

magnet arrowed. 
 

 

same coupling distance as the plastic option and just pings together 

 

 

plus it can be hooked up at the back. 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

I seem to recall that the tenders used by the Rainhill Trials locomotives were supplied by the L&MR?

 

In pictures, Sans Pariel and Rocket both seem to have the same design of tenders...

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

I seem to recall that the tenders used by the Rainhill Trials locomotives were supplied by the L&MR?

 

In pictures, Sans Pariel and Rocket both seem to have the same design of tenders...

 

Not sure about Sans Pariel but Rocket's tender was constructed by Thomas Clarke Worsdell*, the L&M's superintendent of coaching, at the company's Crown Street works. 

 

*Grandfather of T.W. Worsdell and Wilson Worsdell of NER fame. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Compound2632

[Gibbo675]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not sure about Sans Pariel but Rocket's tender was constructed by Thomas Clarke Worsdell*, the L&M's superintendent of coaching, at the company's Crown Street works. 

 

*Grandfather of T.W. Worsdell and Wilson Worsdell of NER fame. 

Hi Stephen,

 

It might be that the locomotives were supplied without tenders and the L&MR had them built in their own works by Wordsell and his staff.

 

Later tenders seemed to be have been constructed using iron rather than wood. Here is a version of Rockets second tender as shewn by a 3d printed model here:

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/83QW9XCNZ/00-scale-rebuilt-rocket-tender-scratch-aid?optionId=84995661&li=shops

 

For good measure and for reference of the above discussion of Rockets 1830/31 condition here is the 3d printed model of Rocket:

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/YKRE6P66G/00-scale-rebuilt-rocket-loco-scratch-aid?optionId=84995294&li=shops

 

I have ordered both of the above with a view to seeing if motorising it is possible.

 

Gibbo.

[I.C.L. 11]

7 hours ago, e30ftw said:

Was the livery made much brighter for the 30's replica? in the above picture of the formations it looks a much more subdued yellow, unless the painting has faded a lot with age.

Historian & author Anthony Dawson recently discussed this on his YouTube channel which is well worth a visit for anybody interested in early locomotives.

 

The following link should take you to the relevant part of his video:

https://youtu.be/DndozLTmV9Y?t=104

[Rudititanic]

2 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

I seem to recall that the tenders used by the Rainhill Trials locomotives were supplied by the L&MR?

 

In pictures, Sans Pariel and Rocket both seem to have the same design of tenders...

 

Most illustrations yes, but in 'Our Iron Roads' by FS Williams (2nd Ed 1883) Sans Pareil is depicted with a completely different tender, comprising inside bearings, central boxy coal container and a vertically-oriented barrel...

[PaulRhB]

From ‘The Engineering and History of Rocket’

Worsdell wrote in 1880
He might say that the finest carriage was really of a canary colour - for George Stephenson after producing and inodifying the sketch said 'We shall paint it yellow’ - and they did paint it yellow - and he was so much pleased with the colour of it that all the first class carriages they built for the Manchester and Liverpool Railway were painted yellow.

Anthony Dawson says it was probably mustard in the clip but that conflicts with the contemporary account and they would certainly be familiar with a wide palette of colours to be able to accurately define it so I’m a little wary of his certainty  

From the clip “we know it was painted green”
It is probable Rocket was repainted green for the opening as Phoenix & Arrow were withdrawn for maintenance to be ready for the opening and as Rocket was the third loco it’s likely it too was spruced up then although the NRM book says it’s likely rather than certain  The reference to Rocket on the day by Isaac Boulton was “she had most certainly a wooden tender, with a wooden cask on it painted green,” so it seems likely they painted the loco too but he makes no mention of it.  

Edited December 17, 2020 by PaulRhB

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, PaulRhB said:

Worsdell wrote in 1880

 

Nathaniel Worsdell, b. 1809, son of Thomas Clarke and father of Thomas William and Wilson.

[PaulRhB]

I’ve added passengers to the coaches, as close as I could get to period in plastic as I didn’t think filling them with white metal ones would be popular with Rocket’s driver

 

 

Preiser figures. 

[Roddy Angus]

The umbrellas might not have lasted long one the train was moving?

 

Roddy

[PaulRhB]

Just now, Roddy Angus said:

The umbrellas might not have lasted long one the train was moving?

At first trains only travelled at 16mph maximum on passenger services, anyway they don’t know that on their first ride  

[Colin_McLeod]

On 16/12/2020 at 22:52, Rudititanic said:

 

 

 

Interesting to note that the second train has a one horse power banking locomotive. 

[Gibbo675]

12 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Interesting to note that the second train has a one horse power banking locomotive. 

Hi Colin,

 

A horse in good condition is generally able to put out up to 24 horse power for short periods*. With frictional losses the contraption it is encapsulated in may reduce this somewhat.

 

The estimate of 1 horse power is the amount of work averaged by one horse over a whole day's work including rest periods.**

 

* Pedant alert.

 

** Pedant alert again.

 

Gibbo.

[robmcg]

52 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Colin,

 

A horse in good condition is generally able to put out up to 24 horse power for short periods*. With frictional losses the contraption it is encapsulated in may reduce this somewhat.

 

The estimate of 1 horse power is the amount of work averaged by one horse over a whole day's work including rest periods.**

 

* Pedant alert.

 

** Pedant alert again.

 

Gibbo.

 

I thought it was 550 ft.lbs/sec    or something like that....